The Car Which Shall Not Be Named III (1935 Lincoln K)

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, pmhowe said:

From what i have read, pump clearances are critical. The pump may look fine, and all parts may be assembled correctly, but if clearances aren't right, it won't work properly. Maybe that is the problem.

 

I second this.

 

 

[edinmass]

A pump on a car like that Lincoln should easily move the water.........end play and impeller clearances are not critical. Put the garden hose in the lower pipe and force the water up from the bottom and out the top. It will purge any air, and show if there is an obstruction......which I can’t imagine could be possible. The pump isn’t rocket science.........and I expect you would figure it out in ten seconds flat.........

Edited September 4, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

Sounds like either a problem with whatever drives the water pump, or else something plugging up the water passage somewhere. I don't quite understand the water passages in that engine, but wonder about that oil cooler/temperature regulator...

 

I have faith you will figure it out. When you are finally driving this car, you will (eventually) recover from the emotional distress it put you through. It won't be much longer before you have it figured out and fixed.

 

[mike6024]

I just replaced a broken old well centrifrugal pump. The brass impeller just cracked and broke free at the center where it is fixed to the shaft.

 

On the left side of the picture there is a plastic housing type thing called a "diffuser" that is fixed and the impeller spins inside of it. In this case, the clearance from the outside diameter of the impeller to the plastic "diffuser" housing needs to be relatively small in order for the spinning impeller to be able to build pressure.

 

In other words, if the impeller were OK, and you removed the "diffuser" the pump would not work, the impeller would not be able to move enough water to build pressure then.

 

I guess I should add that not all centrifrugal pumps even have "diffusers." Or you might say, just the pump outside housing acts as a diffuser.

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[Bloo]

19 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

I don't quite understand the water passages in that engine, but wonder about that oil cooler/temperature regulator...

 

I didn't until a few pages ago, but it is very simple. The pump pushes water directly into the bottom of the water jacket on one side, and it pushes through a tunnel in the pan, and then through an elbow into the water jacket the other side. I have wondered about that tunnel, and I think I asked about it, and as far as I can remember it has not been checked for a blockage, however...

 

If the tunnel was blocked that would only stop flow on one side. Matt found no flow on either side in the last test, so that is why the blame lays directly on the water pump. There just isn't anything else.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

6 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

I guess I should add that not all centrifugal pumps even have "diffusers." Or you might say, just the pump outside housing acts as a diffuser.

 

I think that's the case here. Look at the shape of the housing:

 

 

I don't think the oil cooler affects anything unless it's totally plugged, but we're going to go back to the bypass and remove the oil cooler so that passage won't be blocked at all. The oil cooler lives in that giant box on the bottom of the water pump.

 

I'm also certain it's turning:

 

 

Coolant flow is simple. It gets sucked in the bottom of the pump, through the oil cooler, then into the impeller. The impeller pushes it out the bottom of the pump to a manifold that separates--one branch feeds the right side cylinder block while the other branch feeds a passage through the crankcase where another manifold distributes it to the left cylinder block. It flows up through the block and heads, and out the top of the engine. There just aren't that many places for blockage. It has to be the pump somehow not being able to move the water, but I don't understand how that could happen. The air bubble in the top of the pump was a good theory, and that's why I installed that pipe plug--to eliminate the air bubble. There's no way the pump wasn't full of water during the barrel test. 

 

Some bench testing will hopefully reveal something we didn't know before. 

[Stude17]

The  water pump cover plate you used as a replacement for the cracked original does not look identical to me in that the original has a flat machined area for the impeller to  seat against wheras the replacement does not.  I would reinstall  the original end plate to see if this could be your problem.  Just my observation.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Go over to the  "dark " side. Try an electric pump just for shits and giggles.  The H.A.M.B.  would have this figured out shortly.😁

 

  Ben

[ramair]

Ben’s idea is not a bad one, but I think a garden hose with a control valve would be cheaper and faster to set up.  My recently rebuilt engine for my 36 gmc ran several hours on a test stand , water temperature was controlled to 180 , surprisingly very little water flow was required  out the outlet.  No doubt the result of no load on the engine as no dyno to attaché to flywheel

[60FlatTop]

An interesting thought on the oil cooler, could it ever have been exposed to freezing temperatures with water in it? Freezing without breaking can crush the passages in some designs and restrict the flow. Since all the coolant flows through it a GPM test on the cooler and the radiator should be equal. I experienced a lack of capacity on a 25 HP air compressor in an industrial application. It never output its capacity. It was a used unit, installed still on the shipping pallet, bared hose connections, and an electric flex cable power supply. I cruelly asked why they didn't use a plug. The sloppy installation made me ask what time of year it was delivered. Late November. Water has frozen in the aftercooler while sitting on the dock. Then my problem was dealing with it short cycling since it was oversized.

 

There is a well known '33 Essex Terraplane that came to me with overheating issues after a fresh engine rebuild. an opening in the distribution plate was the diagnosis. My job was to install a new plate. When I removed the supposed bad one I found that Bobo, the assembler had cut a large oval gasket, leaving the cork in the middle. On breaking the engine had overheated and blown through the cork gasket. It looked like my left ventricle with the cork hanging in the coolant flow restricting the flow. A perimeter gasket with the center cut out solved all problems.

 

Expect the unexpected. Don't "fix a Lincoln" fix a cooling system. Those Lincoln experts can lead you astray.

 

 

[mike6024]

6 hours ago, Stude17 said:

replacement for the cracked original does not look identical to me in that the original has a flat machined area for the impeller to  seat against wheras the replacement does not.

yes that could be the issue. The fluid being driven by the impeller needs to be constrained.

[Matt Harwood]

Well, that all sounds good in theory and I did indeed hook up an electric pump to circulate coolant. I broke out my Evapo-Rust rig and connected my adapters to the sides of the blocks. Then I filled a 55-gallon trash barrel with water, reinstalled the PVC extenders on the upper radiator hoses, and connected the electric pump. In theory, it would pull water from the barrel, pump it through the blocks, up into the heads, and out the top outlets.

 

Which it did:

 

 

Then I figured I'd start the engine and see if that pump could keep it cool or at least cool enough to do some tuning to determine if anything else is wrong. Of course, you can see where this is heading. Thanks to the built-in oil cooler and lines that go through the block to connect the oil cooler to the oil galleys, it is impossible (or at least highly inadvisable) to run this engine without a water pump installed.

 

Oh, yeah, forgot that the oil lines go to the

water pump and without it, it just pumps

oil onto the ground...

 

Ultimately, what I really managed to do was to distribute about 30 gallons of water and maybe two gallons of oil across my shop floor. 

 

So we're not doing that. Guess I'll have to wait for the water pump to come back and hope it works. 

 

You know, it occurred to me while I was cleaning the floor that if I sold a car to someone and it was causing them this many headaches, I would f*cking buy it back. Maybe it's time to let the lawyers go after the guys who screwed it up so badly in the first place and let them underwrite this foolhardy adventure for a while. It was supposed to be a set of tires away from ready to tour...

 

[AB-Buff]

Matt, thinking out loud I’m wondering if when you get your water pump back if you could put it in a 5 gallon bucket (or bigger) an put the drive end of the pump up and somehow drive that with a drill press motor or even half-inch drive drill just to see if it will pump water. It should circulate some water even at a low shaft speed… I’d love to know what the person thought was possibly wrong with your pump when they’re finished with it. Don’t give up on it, you are almost there. I think it’s going to be a good running car.

[Terry Harper]

12 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Ultimately, what I really managed to do was to distribute about 30 gallons of water and maybe two gallons of oil across my shop floor. 

That's alright Matt. I think all of us at one point or another have had to ask ourselves "what the heck was I thinking" (LOL) I still vividly remember putting a new wick in a kerosene heater than "bench testing" it before I put all the innards and the top back on. Lovely flames, amazingly soot coated shop and one empty fire extinguisher. 

[Smartin]

We were breaking in an engine on the stand one time, and I primed the oil pump with a drill to get oil moving through it before startup.  We forgot to plug the oil pressure sending unit hole, and my buddy (who was standing there eagerly waiting for the initial start) had his entire shoe filled with 30wt within about 5 seconds.  Every time I see him, he won't let me forget it.

 

Keep at it!  You're closer than ever..

Edited September 4, 2021 by Smartin (see edit history)

[AB-Buff]

Then again, put that pump in, fired up see if it works.

L

[DavidAU]

 

We were breaking in an engine on the stand one time, and I primed the oil pump with a drill to get oil moving through it before startup.  We forgot to plug the oil pressure sending unit hole,

 

I too am a member of the oil distribution club. 🙂

[edinmass]

Anyone who hasn't made a major mistake while doing an early engine over has never done one. The trick is learn from your mistakes........many, or most don't. Running the engine on the stand saved Matt a bunch of heartache.......even though he is still pounding his head against the wall........he is almost across the finish line. Let's face it, how many people would think the pump wasn't functioning at all? It would not have been the first thing I looked at. I thought the pump was "mistake proof", and obviously it wasn't. 

[Stude17]

I would suggest that the  internal clearances of this water pump have been altered when the end cover was replaced and they need to be corrected.  If I am correct then the pump will do what it is designed to do quite efficiently.  

[Matt Harwood]

Well, we're still at zero with the water pump. Jim worked all weekend on it, built a jig to test it with a large electric motor, and it still moves no water. He's at a loss to explain why. We switched out the covers and reinstalled the old one, and nothing changed. Clearances are the same, the impeller is spinning the correct direction, but it's not moving anything. Not a drop. No knock against my friend Jim, but he's out of ideas and has enough hours in this thing to rebuild an engine. I need a plan B.

 

Does anyone have a good water pump rebuilder they can recommend who might be able to diagnose this one and get it working? I hate to just start calling at random without knowing anyone who specializes in these pumps. And sending it out is terrifying simply because if I lose it, I can't replace it, which is why I asked Jim to do it.

 

Any suggestions for rebuilders you trust? I need to keep moving forward.

[pmhowe]

Hi Matt,

 

You have established that

1. Water gets to the water pump,
2. The shaft to the pump spins, but the pump doesn’t push water.

I think you also determined that the impeller actually spins when the shaft that drives it spins.

 

I come up with the following possibilities

1. The pump is missing a part.
2. The pump clearances are wrong.
3. The pump was assembled incorrectly (unlikely).

 

I think Plan B should be to find someone who has a car with the same engine with a working water pump and persuade him to let you examine it. That would be a big, big favor, I know, but it should put the problem to rest. Maybe one of those owners had his pump rebuilt and the rebuilder could be queried. Long shot, but I think it is worth pursuing.

 

Phil

[Laughing Coyote]

I'm wondering if it's the correct impeller?  Could it have been swapped out with one that just fit the shaft just to get the car sold?  Stranger things have happened.

[Bloo]

Is there any chance the impeller could be on upside down?

 

My guess is that the inlet is the slot in the impeller, and the flat area, especially the outer ring, runs a fairly tight clearance to some flat surface, and that is what separates suction from discharge. I am wondering what that clearance is.

 

Does the inlet port lead to the slot in the rotor somehow? I think it should.

 

The other side of the rotor looks curved. Does it run close to a curved surface?

 

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

Well, here's the rub: the water pump worked before we took it apart. Same impeller, same housing, and even changing back to the original end cap didn't change anything. Impeller is spinning the right direction and hasn't changed shape or size. It's surely a clearance issue, but we can't figure out where we went wrong with the clearances. Is the impeller too deep in the housing? Not deep enough? Jim measured the position of the impeller on the original shaft when he made the new shaft, so it's in the same location. We changed the end cap but changing back to the original cap didn't make the pump work.

 

So...

[neil morse]

Well, at least you have now definitively identified the pump as the problem!  I suspect the solution will be found soon.

[GMT]

Matt, with your pump assembled and the coupling disconnected,  does the shaft have front to back play? If so how much? And if pull on the shaft and turn it  can you hear the impeller touching the inside housing at all. 

GMT

[pmhowe]

58 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Well, here's the rub: the water pump worked before we took it apart.

I'm with Bloo: I'll bet you a salami sandwich the impeller has been installed upside down.

 

Phil

[Matt Harwood]

19 minutes ago, GMT said:

Matt, with your pump assembled and the coupling disconnected,  does the shaft have front to back play? If so how much? And if pull on the shaft and turn it  can you hear the impeller touching the inside housing at all. 

GMT

 

No play in the shaft. There's a thrust washer between the rear cover and the impeller.

 

 

2 minutes ago, pmhowe said:

I'm with Bloo: I'll bet you a salami sandwich the impeller has been installed upside down.

 

Phil

 

By "upside down" do you mean backwards? The smooth side faces the rear cover with the vanes facing towards the drive end of the pump. It's definitely not backwards.

[GMT]

You have the same washer in the pump housing was that replaced also?

[Matt Harwood]

Yes, we made another one so that the distance from the impeller to the rear cover was the same.

[JV Puleo]

I have to admit that this is a really perplexing problem...I wish I was local so I could take a look at it. But, as Ed has pointed out, neither end play or clearance should prevent it from moving water. the fact is, these centrifugal pumps usually pump more water than needed and that is especially true once thermostatic control was introduced. The beauty of a centrifugal pump is that it just spins if the flow is interrupted - which is how the thermostat is able to control the temperature. When I was making the pump for my Mitchell I did notice that it assembles in what appeared to be a counter-intuative way...

I'm not going to try to diagnose this from a distance but maybe check to see that the vanes are facing the right way. Usually they face away from the direction of flow but this was done to lower the output pressure and decrease the flow...

[tom_in_nh]

Is it possible that this is a marine water pump ie: reverse rotation?

[GMT]

I agree but nevertheless the clearance from the vane side of my impeller to the inside pump housing is .020 and overall play is .013. I do think there are other issues also.

[Matt Harwood]

3 minutes ago, GMT said:

I agree but nevertheless the clearance from the vane side of my impeller to the inside pump housing is .020 and overall play is .013. I do think there are other issues also.

 

That's useful to know. We're focusing on the rear cover but maybe it's not close enough to the inside of the housing...

[neil morse]

Are any of these parts of any use to you?

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124292299325

[GMT]

Matt,

Put your pump back together and bench test it as I did it should push water with a cordless drill just make sure the discharge is at least as high as the radiator would be.

[Matt Harwood]

That's pretty much what we did. We spent Saturday and Sunday rigging it up and trying to get it to work. Not a drop. Changed everything we could change, and still nothing. There's something seriously amiss and after beating our heads against the wall for two days, we gave up.

 

I'm just going to send it to Arthur Gould and have them rebuild it and figure it out.

[mike6024]

 

 

And the impeller turns clockwise if you are looking at it in the direction of the water inlet flow. And the impeller blades have a ring around them around their outside tips, and that ring would be on the back side, again if viewing it in the direction of the inlet flow water. In other words viewing it from right to left in the diagram on top.

 

Impeller highlighted in blue, and housing in red. You see there is not too much gap between the impeller blades and the housing. But I don't see how you could go wrong assembling this thing.

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

That's pretty much what we did. We spent Saturday and Sunday rigging it up and trying to get it to work. Not a drop. Changed everything we could change, and still nothing. There's something seriously amiss and after beating our heads against the wall for two days, we gave up.

 

I'm just going to send it to Arthur Gould and have them rebuild it and figure it out.

 

Sending it to Arthur Gould, is sending it to Parker’s Packards in Massachuetts, as he bought the company. Smart and talented young man. Call him directly and go over the pump with him, send photos. Something just doesn’t seem right with this thing, it should push twice the volume you need easily. I like the borrow the pump idea.......it’s a bitch to ask someone, but in this case........probably necessary. I would bench test the borrowed pump before installing it in the car. This pump issue makes absolutely no sense...........I wish I could give you better feedback. 

[Stude17]

4 hours ago, mike6024 said:

 

 

And the impeller turns clockwise if you are looking at it in the direction of the water inlet flow. And the impeller blades have a ring around them around their outside tips, and that ring would be on the back side, again if viewing it in the direction of the inlet flow water. In other words viewing it from right to left in the diagram on top.

 

Impeller highlighted in blue, and housing in red. You see there is not too much gap between the impeller blades and the housing. But I don't see how you could go wrong assembling this thing.

 

 

 

Good explanation  and diagram Mike.  Clearance between the "eyeside" of the impeller and the pump housing as well as end float of the impeller shaft within the pump housing I believe is critical.  The shaft needs to be located within the housing so that it does not float more than necessary.  I would leave the actual clearance of the impeller and  end float to the pump re-builder. One of the things I would start with is measuring how much actual float there is in the pump shaft of the assembled pump in it's current state.