The Car Which Shall Not Be Named III (1935 Lincoln K)

[39BuickEight]

I just imagine a scene where everybody who is following this, all the obvious experts who really know how to troubleshoot and fix things, and others like me just love to learn and see success, all show up at Matt’s place and get this car going for him—while he rests and only has the responsibility of relaxing and smiling.  I’m certainly not the mechanic in the situation, but I can fetch tools, snacks, and drinks.  We all want this to work so darn bad.

Edited August 21, 2021 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Matt"s car isn't hard to fix. It has been ignored, neglected, and not properly maintained or serviced for 60 years. ( It needed 400 hours of attention.) Matt has almost all of it fixed.......and he has done a great job. It's just big cars have big issues.......and they take time and money to fix. When purchasing any car......its a gamble. Know when to hold, and know when to fold. I have found many cars over the years like Matt's where people are almost across the finish line and give up...........that's where the true bargins of the hobby lay..........It's getting them past the finish like takes blood, sweat, tears, money, time, and cutting your balls off half the time.........my only key to success.......my charming good looks, wonderful personality, and the absolute most important attribute......I'm too stupid to give up or give in.......I just keep smashing my head against the wall till it's fixed. I have never, ever lost the repair battle..........ever. But I have had hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars into something that has little to no value. It takes pure stubbornness and stupidity to make a pre war car for run and drive correctly........fortunately I am full of all that..........and a WHOLE lot more. (Just ask my family and friends, no comments AJ.)

 

We have a saying in our shop...........SHUT UP AND FIX THE FXXXING THING! It's not polite, it's not kind, and it's not easy. Stay on the road till it's done NO MATTER WHAT IT TAKES. None of the above is offered as criticism of any type...........I have no children, and a very small family. Restoring cars can ruin relationships.....it's all consuming, and why many people come in and out of the hobby in less than 7 years. Always buy a finished car for the first ride..............FINISHED. It's the only good concept in collecting.

Edited August 21, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[old car fan]

Somewhat  different, somebody  else's money  versus  your own.Matt will get it,pulling  for him. 

[Terry Harper]

7 hours ago, billorn said:

You make good points Terry and I definitely didnt mean to say that Matt isnt doing a good job. 

 

No worry! No one is taking it that way at all!

 

When you mentioned Barn finds being fired-up my mind flashed to all those Youtube video titled "Sitting in a field for 30 years... will it run?" etc. (LOL)

 

Over the last few years I have been working to bring a vehicle back to life that had indeed been sitting for nearly 30 years in a pole barn. After careful prep work to avoid damage to an irreplaceable engine it awakened quite easily. That was the easy part..... Since than its been a steady program of testing, fixing, frustration etc. to turn it into a reliable running vehicle. We are pretty much there but its taken hours and hours. One of the best diagnostic tools is simply running it which we do as often as possible. Yup, we have had to tow it home - thankfully only once since it tips the scales at 8 tons. However, at our last public event it ran like clockwork and was an absolute joy to drive though I can tell you it has Ed's "Great White" beat on fuel guzzled down. (LOL)

[m-mman]

On 8/21/2021 at 9:34 AM, edinmass said:

But I have had hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars into something that has little to no value. 

 

And this is the biggest hurdle of all.  Time is cheap (its a hobby, we are not supposed to make profit on our time) But buying and buying and paying and paying gets real old, real fast.  

 

Matt is making the time investment (and we are ALL learning so much at his expense) but that businessman's sense of profit/loss ("I dont want to spend thousands more on something that I cant recoup even part of what I have already spent") is difficult to reckon with. 

 

It is a special kind of pain. I have endured it and still question why I did it on some of my projects. 

It hurts sometimes to open this thread, but like turning your head to look at the crash scene I am continually drawn to it. 

 

Sadly some cars just have demons so deep that the routine exorcisms just aren't effective. 

I am pulling for you Matt 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by m-mman (see edit history)

[mike6024]

 

Did you try tapping  a 12 point socket onto it? Was that what the dremmeling was for?

 

[Matt Harwood]

Thanks for the kind words and support, everyone. It is always appreciated. Rumors of my demise (or the engine's) are greatly exaggerated and today we fired it up again after doing some testing and making some changes.

First, there's a new oil pump. There was nothing obviously wrong with the old one, but it's one variable to check off the list. 

 

Although I really didn't want to do it, I broke down and pulled a main bearing cap and used some Plasti-Gauge to check clearances. The book says .002-.003 and my mains measured .002" with no signs of oil starvation, so that was a relief. Obviously oil was circulating and there was no damage due to the low pressure. 

 

Main bearings were in good shape with

no signs of oil starvation. Clearances

measured out at .002".

 

The main bearings on this engine are insanely complicated, using insert bearings (good) and a locating ring that was a real pain to deal with. The mains are fed by individual pipes from the main oil manifold and getting that lined up with the hole in the bearing was a bit of a challenge, as well as the locating rings that hold everything in alignment. I guess I'm glad I took it apart to look, but it was even more of a PITA than I imagined it would be. Just measuring one main bearing was about five hours of work given my trial-and-error assembly/disassembly process.

 

That done, I bolted the oil pickup tube and pan back in place with new gaskets, then had the guy next door use his forklift to pull the engine off the lift and put it back on the ground. I pulled the oil cooler tube with my adapters bolted to it and reconfigured everything to just feed the new oil pressure gauge--I didn't bother with the pressure pot this time since I figured everything was well-oiled from all the other times I used it. 

 

Looking at the manual and the diagrams others have posted in this thread, I realized that the thing I thought was the regulator is actually the bypass for the oil cooler and the thing I thought was the bypass is actually the regulator. This is good, because the regulator is the one that is accessible from the outside of the engine and the bypass was the thing I couldn't get a wrench on. If pressure gets too high, oil pushes the little piston out of the way and dumps oil back into the pan through the block. Since I removed the regulator piston and spring to connect my gauge, I effectively eliminated any pressure regulation--it should have whatever the max output of the pump actually is. I have not decided whether I will reinstall the spring and plunger or if I'll just leave my bypass in place--more oil pressure is better than less, up to a certain point anyway, and I'm not sure this pump is capable of making more than about 60 PSI anyway.

 

So all that done, I filled the crankcase and the radiator, connected the battery and [very reluctantly] pressed the button.

 

 

It bellowed to life and sure enough, there's plenty of oil pressure. The book says it should be 45 PSI at start up, and that's what it was showing, going up to 50-55 PSI at about 1500 RPM and down to 5-10 at idle (which the book also says is OK). It's worth noting that the cheap oil pressure gauge on which I was previously relying read about 5 PSI less than the main gauge, suggesting that the gauge wasn't the problem. It was definitely the oil pump, and I'm relieved that it appears to be healthy now.

 

However, it still has a major heat issue. We ran it for five or six minutes and it eventually overheated and boiled over at 220 degrees again, with MASSIVE heat coming off the manifolds. Something is still amiss with the cooling system and/or timing/ignition systems to make it cook itself, but oil pressure is no longer an issue. What a relief. 

 

Next step will be to install the engine-driven fan, as suggested by Matt Hinson, and see if it moves enough air to keep things cool. I'm not convinced that the electric fan I'm using is really moving enough air, despite being able to feel a pretty good breeze through the core. I may try the bucket experiment, replacing the radiator with a 50-gallon barrel full of water, and seeing what the water pump's flow looks like in real time. I'm also going to remove the oil cooler in the water pump and reinstall the bypass pipe, since that obviously wasn't the issue. I'm curious to see how it affects oil pressure, if at all.

 

It took everything I had to screw myself together enough to push the button and fire it again. I really wasn't equipped for another failure, despite steeling myself for it for more than a week. Expecting failure is my default state, although I somehow also remain eternally optimistic that things will turn out OK. I'm hugely relieved that things did, indeed, turn out OK this time--even Melanie breathed a big sigh of relief (I'm sure I've been pretty miserable to be around for the past 10 days or so). The cooling issues are probably solvable and the rest is tuning and sorting. 

Still a long way to go, but one major hurdle has been cleared and I don't believe the engine is hurt. Thanks for all the support, guys, it really means a lot.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[pfloro]

Matt,

 

This is such great news...!

 

My favorite aunt (Auntie Agnes) told me 50 years ago: "When things aren't going well or you are facing a difficult decision,

Let the world take another turn." 

 

I've never forgotten that phrase and I often use it and share it.

 

...And my father taught me:

"Don't sell yourself short."

 

Paul

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by pfloro (see edit history)

[95Cardinal]

Matt,

I am so happy to see that oil pressure reading...and I'm sure you were ecstatic!

One more problem taken care of.

Good work!!!

Joe

[Bloo]

On to the heat issue then. I wouldn't necessarily expect the engine driven fan to be that much better but maybe. It should probably be enough since the engine isn't loaded. there are some things I would really like to know....

 

--What are you using for coolant at this point?

 

--How is the timing controlled? Are there weights and springs in the distributor for a centrifugal advance?

 

--Is there any sort of vacuum advance or vacuum control on the distributor?

 

--How may sets of ignition points are there in the distributor? How many ignition coils?

 

--What is base timing currently set to?

 

--Is there manual control of the advance (on the steering wheel or something)?

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

On to the heat issue then. I wouldn't necessarily expect the engine driven fan to be that much better but maybe. It should probably be enough since the engine isn't loaded. there are some things I would really like to know....

 

--What are you using for coolant at this point?

 

Just plain water. Eight gallons.

 

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

 

--How is the timing controlled? Are there weights and springs in the distributor for a centrifugal advance?

 

Yes, weights and springs in the distributor. I had it calibrated by AB-Buff on his machine and he's confident he got it close to spec. I trust his work.

 

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

 

--Is there any sort of vacuum advance or vacuum control on the distributor?

 

No external advance.

 

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

 

--How may sets of ignition points are there in the distributor? How many ignition coils?

 

Two sets of points, two condensers, two coils. Rotor is brand new, cap is good. They fire every other plug--essentially running as two straight-6 engines. In fact, the manual says to ground a coil to kill one bank of cylinders in order to tune the carburetor.

 

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

 

--What is base timing currently set to?

 

Base timing is set to spec--there's a mark on the flywheel. It may be a little advanced now, as I bumped it a bit thinking that it was getting hot because it was retarded.

 

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

 

--Is there manual control of the advance (on the steering wheel or something)?

 

No manual control. Just the centrifugal advance and base timing.

 

I had this thought when we first started it: maybe the timing chain slipped a tooth while I had it apart. It isn't likely, but it's on my list of things to check if I can't solve it otherwise. Getting to it is a major job, so I'm going to eliminate everything else before I dig into the front of the engine again.

 

My next step is to increase the airflow with the engine-driven fan and maybe drill a hole in the water pump to bleed a possible air bubble, which is inhibiting flow. That still doesn't really explain why the manifolds are so bloody hot, which suggests ignition or fuel, but it's another step. The problem is that I only have about five minutes of run time before it goes supernova and that's not usually enough to try many variables, and afterwards it's too hot to work on for several hours.

[Bloo]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Yes, weights and springs in the distributor. I had it calibrated by AB-Buff on his machine and he's confident he got it close to spec. I trust his work.

 

And he has one of these cars too. That makes it even better.

 

Can his run at a standstill like this without overheating? I'm guessing yes, but I have to ask.

 

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

No external advance.

 

An engine with only centrifugal advance has to be set up for maximum load, and when it is lightly loaded the timing is effectively retarded (compared to optimum), making a lot of fire in the exhaust, and heating more of the cylinder walls. Obviously a lot of cars have been made that way over the years but it is not optimum, and creates a lot more heat. That is why I asked what I did above.

 

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Two sets of points, two condensers, two coils. Rotor is brand new, cap is good. They fire every other plug--essentially running as two straight-6 engines. In fact, the manual says to ground a coil to kill one bank of cylinders in order to tune the carburetor.

 

 

Have you tried it? Does one bank behave differently than the other? I was wondering if the timing could be different on one bank than the other. On systems like this you usually have to set one set of points, set the timing, and then slightly screw up the gap or dwell adjustment of the other one to get the timing the same on both.

 

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I had this thought when we first started it: maybe the timing chain slipped a tooth while I had it apart. It isn't likely, but it's on my list of things to check if I can't solve it otherwise. Getting to it is a major job, so I'm going to eliminate everything else before I dig into the front of the engine again.

 

There has to be a way to check it without too much hassle or disassembly since the engine is out of the car. How does one set the valve clearance on this engine? Is there a cover you can take off and see the valves and get a feeler gauge in? Alternatively, do you have a borescope? Or better yet maybe a dial indicator with interchangeable feet?

 

 

 

 

 

[Terry Harper]

Matt,

 

That is most excellent! Even though it took a considerable amount of time and effort to verify that there is oil pressure and that the mains are OK is well worth the piece of mind. Finding what ISN'T the problem is just as important as what IS the problem.

 

With it out of the car would it be easier to verify the valve timing? Again, might be just a ghost as with the oil pressure but if its easier now than later I would say go for it.

 

Back to the Dyke's Automotive Encyclopedia list. Its getting shorter!

 

Engine overheating indicated by boiling over:

1. Ignition too retarded (late)

2. want of water

3. circulation defective

4. fan not working

5. pump not working

6. radiator choked up

7. steam lock in pipes

8. mixture too rich. (note that too rich = hot... an engine running hot because it's lean is an old wives tale)

9. Using too much gas

10. Exhaust is "throttled" too much

11. Valve timing is incorrect

12. Muffler choked up

Edited August 29, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[DavidMc]

Is it possible for an engine to start and run and yet have such a major tuning issue with timing , mixture whatever, to cause such extreme and rapid overheating?    Surely only lack of cooling could cause such overheating?   

[old-tank]

17 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I may try the bucket experiment, replacing the radiator with a 50-gallon barrel full of water, and seeing what the water pump's flow looks like in real time.

Try that after spraying the radiator with water.

[aron_budapest]

Still think a heat camera for example in a Caterpillar mobile can show you how the cooling system works. Gratulation to solve the low oil pressure problem.

[AB-Buff]

11 hours ago, Bloo said:

And he has one of these cars too. That makes it even better.

 

Can his run at a standstill like this without overheating? I'm guessing yes, but I have to ask.

Hi sorry I have been sidetracked doing other things and haven’t been on the site as much as I probably should have been. But the answer is yes I can start mine up and run it and it doesn’t overheat. However my radiator has been modified and that I have to use a 4 pound pressure cap. If I don’t it will start puking water out like Matt’s and eventually when it gets to a gallon and a half to 2 gallons down it’ll start warming up. I may have discussed this earlier but when my radiator is full and you start it up it needs an air space so it will expel enough water to get that air space. The trouble is after it has that air space and warms up again it will expel more water because of where the overflow tube is located. It’s on the filler neck and water is rushing by it all the time, originally it was at the top of the tank. So if Matt’s  radiator has been modified like mine he’ll have to run a 4 pound cap. My plan is, this fall to take it out and take it to the Brassworks in California and have them build me one that will either run with an air space and no pressure or a good 4 pound Radiator that I don’t have to worry about. That’s to be determined. So Matt if your radiator filler cap has the vent right underneath it, put a 4 pound cap on it. Because you will never ever keep water in that radiator without it. The original radiator had a copper tube that came up through the bottom of the top tank and stopped at the very peak of the top inside. It didn’t see any water there at all so it could let air out and in without taking water with it. Hope that makes sense

 

Also there is a lug that was used to fasten a chain to the To keep you from losing the cap inside the filler neck I fill my water level up a quarter inch below that lug and it seems to be good.

 

I might add I drove this to the Lincoln picnic at the Ketel ranch that was about a 300 mile round-trip. It did great. Also last Monday I ended up taking it to a tour of a few car collections in Sacramento, drove it up interstate 5 at 70 miles an hour and back and didn’t have any issues. Yes it has a high speed rear end in it so it was only around 2100 to 2200 RPMs

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by AB-Buff (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

Matt, I am very happy to see this major milestone (oil pressure) passed with flying colors. I have no expertise on this engine but I agree with others that simple tuning issues would not cause this drastic overheating without also making the engine run terribly. To me it seems like there is a major obstruction somewhere, possibly something very simple. With this army of expert assistance and your amazing perseverence you will figure it out, good luck!

[AB-Buff]

Matt

I should mention your oil pressure with than new pump is fantastic.  I would like to see if it stays the same in the car. 

Mine with a fresh oil change (5-40) is 30 psi cold, hot running down the hwy is around 28 psi.  After 300 miles it's around 26 psi at hwy speed.  10 psi idling at 450 -500 rpm.  All this measured with the gauge that came in the car so I have no idea how close it is, sometime I'll slip a gauge in somewhere to check it.

[Matt Harwood]

It has to be the radiator. I've eliminated everything else. 

Today I drilled and tapped a 1/8" NPT hole in the top of the water pump and inserted a brass plug. Then I slowly filled it, bled the air out of the top of the water pump, and filled the rest of the system with about 7.5 gallons of water (which is the correct amount).

 

  
Drilled and tapped a bleed hole in the water pump to (hopefully)

release any air that might be trapped in there. Nothing changed.

 

Fired it up and timed the temperature spike--3 minutes 28 seconds from ambient (80 degrees) to 210+. Three and a half minutes @ 900-1200 RPM. That isn't the timing out of whack or a little too much fuel. That's something seriously amiss with the cooling system. The blocks are clean thanks to the Evaporust bath, the water pump is new (and I did ask Jim if it's even remotely possible that the impeller is spinning on the shaft or that he may have put it in backwards and he says neither is possible given how it's constructed), and there's enough airflow from the fan to blow my hair standing by the back of the engine at the control panel. The only thing is that insanely expensive new radiator whose new core might not be correct and not flowing enough. Ed mentioned this to me in a text just as I was coming to the same conclusions--there's no other variable that hasn't been considered. 

 

So I'll rig up a barrel of water and some pipes and see if it can run cool without the radiator. Then we'll know.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Flow test the radiator yourself. Take a 55 gallon drum and pipe it to the top tank. It should drain the ENTIRE 55 gallons in less than 70 seconds. My bet........it’s a truck heater core that was installed as a car core.......been there, done that, and it was UGLY..........lost a engine. Running cool water through it at full hose volume should prevent it from getting too hot. You’re almost done......keep at it. I want to drive that thing next month when I visit you. 

[AB-Buff]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

It has to be the radiator. I've eliminated everything else. 

Matt

Talk to Lee at the Brassworks in Paso Robles CA.  It's not as expensive as you would think, very reasonable.  Heck maybe he can do one for me at the same time and get a bulk discount 🙂 If yo decide to send it there,  let me know I may take mine also, be happy to help if I can!

Lynn

 

PS he has done them for Lincoln before.  Also they are about 3 hors away from me so I can go there if need be

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by AB-Buff (see edit history)

[JimKB1MCV]

In the three min. 28 sec. test was the coolant at the upper radiator tank at 210 deg?

 

If it wasn't then wouldn't that indicate a lack of circulation?

 

My thermodynamics are rusty but it seems as if the BTUs to raise the coolant from 80 deg. ambient to 210 deg. in a three min. 28 seconds time span should be an impressive number.

 

I'll be interested to hear the results of the radiator flow experiment.

 

 

[ramair]

Matt,  I too am glad that you have the oiling system under control.  As for the cooling my suggestion is to follow Ed’s advice with a additional check.  If the radiator flows through like sXXt through a goose, you should flow check the complete engine .  Of course it will not empty that 55 gallon drum as fast as the radiator alone.  Here is the point. I have a close friend that does amazing work, one of the few guys that does complete overhauls on twelves like in Lincoln and Packard.  He had a customer a few years back that wanted a Packard twelve overhauled, which he did.  The customer wanted to install it himself, a number of months go by and the customer said the engine would not run.  After a little diagnostics my friend found a rag deep inside the intake.  I am not saying that that is the case here (coolant passage) because I have watched your work, but what I am asking you to do is not going to cost you anything more than some more water, and actually you could flow through the radiator and block with engine running as a additional test.  I am of a like mind as others here thinking that if the heat is caused by valves or timing the engine would run like crap, like some of the horseless carriages that I have , if the spark is retarded the engine will get hotter enough it will slowly overheat, not like your engine that goes into orbit in three minutes.  Put a vacuum gauge on it and if vacuum is above 15 , I feel that you can’t be a tooth off on cam, in my humble opinion

[Bloo]

I think Ed probably has it right about the radiator, but I still think there are some things that should be done with regard to valve and ignition timing while the engine is out of the car. Personally I can't stand doing the same job twice. There is guessing and there is KNOWING. Now is the time to KNOW there are no timing issues. You'll be glad you did once it is driving and you are tuning it.

 

The first would be to absolutely establish TDC. I would fashion a pointer on the harmonic balancer. Looking through a hole at a flywheel is a PITA, but might be fine after things are sorted. For now, I would want something I can see. With the plugs out, so there is no compression, you can stick the head of a giant plastic zip tie in through the spark plug hole of #1 (or whatever cylinder this engine times from if it is not #1), and turn the engine with a wrench, carefully letting the head of the zip tie follow the far side of the piston up until it gets stuck between the piston and the far side of the head. Hold it there with your wrench and make a mark on the balancer. Then turn it backwards until the zip tie contacts the head. Hold it there. Make another mark. Now make a more permanent mark between the two, preferably in red. This is true TDC. If your pistons have offset pins, there could be a slight error but it will be less than a degree. Absolutely good enough for ignition and valve timing on an antique, and you KNOW it is correct.

 

Optional next step (but I would definitely do it!). Measure the circumference of the balancer, divide by 2, make another mark halfway around the balancer. Double check by reversing your measuring tape or device. Use a different color, maybe white. Now divide the distance by 3 and make more marks in the non-tdc color, at 1/3 and 2/3 of the distance, both sides. You should now have a mark every 60 degrees, with the red one at #1 TDC. I believe this is an even firing engine that fires every 60 crankshaft degrees, correct? You should now be able to check timing on any cylinder, and after setting #1 to something reasonable you can check a cylinder on the other bank to see if it matches (shows you instantly if the second set of points for the other bank is timed right).

 

What it might not show you, and I don't really think this is it, but I have to ask..... could the points wires or coil wires have got swapped? If so 6 cylinders might not be doing anything. You probably would have heard it in the exhaust, but on the other hand this thing has so many cylinders it would probably run smooth no matter what. It would have stuck out like a sore thumb when you did the "kill one side to set the carb" test. Did you do that? Killing the good side would have just killed the engine. On the other hand if this WAS the problem, it would be firing every other cylinder with the piston down and the exhaust valve open. I think. That part is a little bit of a brain tease. If so, the amount of heat dumped into the cooling system and the exhaust would be astronomically high.

 

And then there is the valve timing...

 

Since you now know absolute TDC, you need to look for valve overlap. I have never seen an old engine that did not have the overlap (or lack of overlap) centered around TDC, or fairly close to  centered around TDC, 360 crank degrees from firing. On an engine with a chain there is always slop. If the engine has been actually used, you might be shocked at how much slop. The good news it it probably won't be so much that you can't tell if the valve timing is right. If I am not mistaken, there are pictures of this engine with the timing case open. Count the crank teeth and divide 360 (degrees) by the number of teeth. This is the number of crankshaft degrees error "one tooth off" would cause. Then find where the intake valve opens and the exhaust valve closes. If Lincoln published specs, use them. If not, the center point is probably not off TDC more than 5 degrees or so, plus some chain slop. The slop might be severe, but it probably wont be a whole tooth, and if it was a whole tooth, it would be the whole tooth plus the slop. The error should jump out at you if the valve timing is wrong.

 

I don't know how the valves are accessed on your Lincoln. I have done this on inline flatheads by taking the side covers off and feeling the valves as I slowly rotate the crank. I have also done it with a dial indicator. There are sets of offset "feet" you can buy for the indicator, and then just set the indicator up with a mag base, or one of those vise-grip things, or whatever. I went in through the spark plug hole and put the "foot" on the edge of each valve of interest. Some flatheads might not have the spark plug hole arranged so you can get to both valves, but many do. I would check one valve (either intake opening or exhaust closing), then go almost a whole 360 degrees of the crank and check the other. Don't ever go backwards while doing this, so the chain slop is always the same and always in the retarded (stretched) direction. The other day I think someone suggested a borescope. I haven't done it that way but I think it might work.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Simple logic applies.......what now is different from when the car was running last year..........block is cleaner than it has been since 1937. Pump is rebuilt like new. hoses and connections are good. That ONLY leaves heat exchange issue(radiator) or ignition or valve timing. It can't be anything else. The core is new and has never been driven or used till the test.........it's probably the problem. Ignition or valve timing are a possibility.....but I would place my bets on flow issue through the core..........I'm certain Matt is tired and aggravated with the car......but it's close now. Easiest test is the radiator flow.......it WILL give an answer on heat exchange, a definitiave answer.........if it checks out it leaves valves and ignition. The most important thing we are seeing........I had called Matt a while back to talk him into running the engine BEFORE it was in the car....and now..........its fifty times easier to deal with. Some day I will do a thread on a Pierce V-12 that ran almost perfectly on a stand for 12 hours.......we couldn't get a skip out of it. We figured it out. Fortunatly it was an easy repair on the stand. 

[Matt Harwood]

I'm going to pull the radiator tonight and see how quickly it drains. I E-mailed an old car radiator shop last night and--remarkably--they responded with some ideas and a request for a video of a test similar to the one Ed describes. They want to see how quickly it drains. It's probably important to note that the core is brand new, so there will be no blockages in it. It looks identical to the old one, but is it? I don't know. So more testing. The new core sure looks like the old one, though:

 

 

Original core vs. new. On close examination, they look pretty much identical.
Could there still be a problem that's not visible?

 

As for @Bloo's suggestions, that's definitely the plan while the radiator is off. Unfortunately, this car doesn't have a harmonic balancer, just a pulley bolted to the end of the camshaft and it's not advisable to use it to turn the engine over. All the timing marks are on the flywheel. I checked, they're quite visible, although there's no pointer to indicate how close you are to spec. I'm assuming just the middle of the window, but it's rather large so everything will be a best guess. If there was a bad coil or half the cylinders were offline, I'd probably smell gas in the exhaust, and I don't (it actually runs quite clean with no smoke or stinkiness). Plugs read good with a nice tan color, not white or sooty. I honestly do not believe it is ignition and there's not enough adjustment in the distributor to get it so far off that it could generate this much heat. The distributor only fits one way, so it's not like I can install it a tooth off or anything like that. Ignition timing and the ignition system are probably not the culprits.

 

Unfortunately, no harmonic balancer for timing

checks or turning the engine over.

 

Valve timing, however... You may recall that I did have the timing cover off and I had to loosen the timing chain to reinstall the generator drive. I don't believe I moved the tensioner enough to cause that massive, wide chain to slip a tooth on either of the drive gears, but it did occur to me. Unfortunately, the only real way to know is to pull the front cover off and have a look at the gears--there are timing marks on them that will tell me whether it's properly lined up. Again, it runs quite well while it runs--smooth, no popping or other signs of bad valve timing, no smoke, nothing to suggest a problem. Just the huge amounts of heat. But with the radiator off, I'll pull the front cover and line everything up and make sure valve timing is right. I'm 90% sure that it is, but if we're eliminating variables...

 

Timing alignment marks are visible and I'll

make sure they're properly aligned.

 

I suppose it might also be worthwhile to pull the water pump off and double check everything inside there, just in case. I trust Jim, but at this point everything has to be suspect even though he says it isn't mechanically possible to assemble it incorrectly.

 

If I can get this thing to stay cool for longer than 3 minutes at a time, I can fix everything else. Now that we know there's oil pressure, the overheating has to be addressed next. I just can't believe that minor tuning issues could generate all this heat. The entire radiator core gets equally hot, so some coolant is circulating, suggesting the pump is doing its job, but I don't think it's circulating adequately. Alternatively, the pump isn't moving anything and simple convection is all that's causing the coolant to circulate until it overheats. We'll check that while the radiator is off, too. It's one or both of those things.

 

It just has to be.

[Terry Harper]

Matt,

 

I agree. It couldn't be too far out if it runs OK. I would suspect that overheating caused by valve timing would take more than a few minutes. At this point prime suspect No. 1 would be the radiator as Ed has mentioned. Once that off the list than valve timing etc.

 

Almost there!

 

T

Edited August 30, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[Roger Zimmermann]

During the recent tests, did you use so much fuel as when you began starting the engine?

[Matt Harwood]

24 minutes ago, Roger Zimmermann said:

During the recent tests, did you use so much fuel as when you began starting the engine?

 

Good question. I haven't been paying any attention to fuel consumption now that we're just sucking it out of a 5-gallon fuel cell rather than that little overflow tank I started with. It's definitely thirsty, though.

[TexRiv_63]

10 hours ago, Bloo said:

 

 

..... could the points wires or coil wires have got swapped? If so 6 cylinders might not be doing anything. You probably would have heard it in the exhaust, but on the other hand this thing has so many cylinders it would probably run smooth no matter what. It would have stuck out like a sore thumb when you did the "kill one side to set the carb" test. Did you do that? Killing the good side would have just killed the engine. On the other hand if this WAS the problem, it would be firing every other cylinder with the piston down and the exhaust valve open. I think. That part is a little bit of a brain tease. If so, the amount of heat dumped into the cooling system and the exhaust would be astronomically high.

 

 

Don't want to create a distraction, but years ago when I was messing with my V-12 Cadillac I had the problem Bloo describes. Due to a bad coil only one side of the engine ran. Surprisingly it ran very smoothly but responded very poorly to throttle due to all the extra dead weight being carried by only 6 cylinders. The immediate tipoff is that the exhaust on the dead side stays cold. I don't remember any overheating problems but I didn't run it that way for long.

[edinmass]

AS FAR AS WATER PUMPS GO..........I have seen impellers installed backwards.......yup, can't believe it myself. 

[John Bloom]

17 minutes ago, edinmass said:

AS FAR AS WATER PUMPS GO..........I have seen impellers installed backwards.......yup, can't believe it myself. 

I am ashamed to admit that I am exhibit A of this.   It was the impeller on the Honda outboard on our pontoon at the lake.  In my defense, I did it standing in the lake in late spring, waist deep water, freezing my *^#!?! off.  The schematic was on my phone showing the rotational direction.  The phone was up in the cottage (get out of the lake, 68 steps up the stairs, get back in the lake??....nah......I was pretty sure)  I guessed, I was pretty sure it was clockwise holding the WP in my hand..... I guessed wrong.  Why is it when I drop my toast, 100% if the time it lands butter/Jam side down?  Just lucky I guess.  My biggest mistake was being truthful and telling my wife what I did, I should’ve lied and told her that it was a faulty pump from the manufacture.  she likes to tell strangers the story.  
 

 

[Zimm63]

This thread is fasinating and informative.  A real lesson in deagnostics of old motors.  

 

I'm way out of my league, but is it possible that a couple of exhaust valves are hanging open?  That might explan why the manifolds are getting so hot so quickly.  Radiator flow, or lack there of, whouldn't cause that, would it?  

 

Don't recall seeing in earlier posts that you have done a compression test, or a leakdown test.  

 

Feel free to ignore me, as the oldest thing I ever laid a wrench on was from 1948.  

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

Is this starting to get ridiculous or is it just me?

 

 

So I pulled the radiator and rigged up a trash barrel to act as the radiator instead. It's not 50 gallons, only 35, but that much water should keep the engine cool for a while. I will be able to watch water flow as it comes out of the engine and I added my homemade gauge adapter so I can monitor the temperatures coming out of the engine. This will tell me whether the water pump is working correctly and perhaps give me a bit more operating time to do some tuning and eliminate other variables (like timing).

 

    
Barrel setup will feed the water pump and allow me to watch

the water coming out of the engine to determine whether

the water pump is doing its job.

 

Temperature gauge will allow me to 

monitor the temperature of coolant

coming out of the engine.

 

Some of the glue on the joints was still setting up so I didn't fill it and fire it tonight, but I'll do that tomorrow. I'll also try a flow test on the radiator as described by the radiator shop. 

 

But yeah, this feels ridiculous.

[Terry Harper]

12 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

But yeah, this feels ridiculous.

 

Yup, but often the ridiculous gets the job done.

 

Now... if you upgraded that trash barrel a bit..............................

Edited August 31, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[Laughing Coyote]

Matt,

We don't care how goofy it looks.  It's a test in progress to get you to the next step on getting this thing up and running again. 

[edinmass]

Matt......run cutting oil in the water to stop foaming.........I would have flow tested the radiator before going to you water tank set up, and yes, I have seen them and used them in the past. I like the never say die attitude......your almost there........👍👍👍

Edited August 31, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[ramair]

Matt, I think this is going help you eliminate a few things, now with that said I have a few questions for you, starting with the weight of 30 gallons of water along with a possible 210 degree water , throw in the extra flexibility of heated plastic trash can and then balance it up in the air? and you could have a accident like I did, enclosed photo.  I am not saying this to criticize , because I often cut a few corners.  I am just saying that I will gladly send you a express shipped metal 55 gallon drum at my expense, by the way the picture I am sending you is not a hubble telescope view of The planet Mars

[Larry Schramm]

31 minutes ago, ramair said:

Matt, I think this is going help you eliminate a few things, now with that said I have a few questions for you, starting with the weight of 30 gallons of water along with a possible 210 degree water , throw in the extra flexibility of heated plastic trash can and then balance it up in the air? and you could have a accident like I did, enclosed photo.  I am not saying this to criticize , because I often cut a few corners.  I am just saying that I will gladly send you a express shipped metal 55 gallon drum at my expense, by the way the picture I am sending you is not a hubble telescope view of The planet Mars

 

I am guessing that the picture is a "thermal event" on your skin?