Lost brakes, almost crashed the Cord!

[Hemi Joel]

I drove the L29 in a parade today and it all went very well. But on the way home as I was approaching a red light with a line of cars ahead of me in each lane, I stepped on the brakes, and had brakes for a moment, but then the pedal went clear to the floor. I pumped a couple times and nothing. I grabbed the handbrake and pulled it back as hard as I could but there was no way that I was going to stop before the cars ahead of me. Thankfully the lanes were fairly wide, and there was a gap between the rows of cars, so I was able to shoot right between them. It's a good thing that the Cord is narrow, because it fit through by a whisker. I got it stopped with the front end sticking out into the intersection a couple of feet. Of course the people in the other cars were looking at me like I was an idiot, but I didn't care, I didn't crash!

 

Turns out it blew the rubber hose that goes from the chassis to the rear axle.

 

I'm mostly posting this as a reminder, make sure that your handbrake works and works well! And then be ready for anything, you never know.

 

[32buick67]

Woa, glad you and others are ok Joel, nice save!

I would assume the Cord is original, as in no seatbelts to help in a lower speed collision?

 

A similar hose failure happened to my wife while driving our 2014 Fusion, which is crazy to think of with modern cars.

Turns out there was a recall, the hose failed before Ford sent the recall notice, thankfully nobody was injured and no damage, just more excitement than anyone wants on a mundane drive.

 

Just goes to show that old or modern juice brakes can be a maintenance challenge.

Sometimes the mechanical brakes have an odd sense of security.

 

Curious - was the parade local?  Mind if I ask which city?

 

 

[edinmass]

I safety check every car in our collection three times a year, and also before every tour or show. Juice brakes on cars pre war are ten times more likely to have issues than post war stuff. Two years out of a wheel cylinder is all you can expect without pulling them apart to keep them clean and free of contamination. On the Model J’s I carry wheel cylinder rebuild kits in the car at ALL times……….J brakes are a never ending torture……..

[Hemi Joel]

I put it up on the hoist in May to check everything. I found a nut from the bolt for the front eye of one of the rear leaf springs rattled off and laying on the frame. I didn't think the hoses looked bad. From now on, I'm going to be more rigorous in my inspections! 

 

I'll be refreshing the whole brake system on the Cord before it sees the road again.

[Hemi Joel]

32Buick67, you are right, original style restoration, no seat belts. I might install them. 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Hemi Joel
Correcting Otto-correct (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Also…..never, ever, for any reason use rubber fuel line. 

[dl456]

Joel,

So happy it turned out with no damage or injury.

Today, they are parking brakes,

but they were truly emergency brakes.

I spend as much effort on them as I do foot brakes.

Stay safe!

Dennis

[keiser31]

Good save! Might also be time to adjust the handbrake a bit tighter.

Edited August 6, 2023 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Bloo]

Whew! Nice save! Do you know how old that hose was?

 

 

[1935Packard]

Yikes!  Glad you made it safely through that one.  

[c49er]

That hose looks really old...you had someone watching over you...

[Hemi Joel]

The car was restored under previous ownership, completed 23 years ago. Everything was replaced during the restoration. I don't know how long the restoration took, or how old the parts may have been that they used.

The car has always been stored in a climate controlled environment, and has not had very much exposure to the elements.  I think that wrap around the hose hides the real condition of the tubing underneath.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Hemi Joel (see edit history)

[32buick67]

Was the parade in Hanover?

[Marty Roth]

Good save,

Great that you're here and able to tell us about it.

[Hemi Joel]

47 minutes ago, 32buick67 said:

Was the parade in Hanover?

Yes, were you there?

[Frank DuVal]

The hard HARDER HARDER test is what I give my old cars after they have sat for a month or so. Gives me a sense of brakes going to work.

 

I learned this from driving Corvairs here in salt using country. 

 

This test is step hard on brake pedal in safety of garage or driveway. Then step really hard. Then pull up on steering wheel while standing on pedal. Weak hydraulic brake parts will make them selves be known. People say, "but I don't want to break something". If the system is good, you will not break anything!

 

I should do this on daily drivers, as those are the ones that send me through red lights....😟

[wayne sheldon]

Yes, EXCELLENT save! You are to be congratulated.

People wonder why I prefer mechanical brakes on my prewar cars. Nice demonstration. Hydraulic lines cylinders and other parts can and do sometimes fail with no warning whatsoever.

Many times over the years, I have recommend taking your antique out somewhere safe, maybe an off day in a big parking lot? Practice using the emergency brake enough that you know how and where to grab the brake, and get to know the feel of the brakes. You should know what to expect. Stopping distances, the sounds it will make, whether they pull one way or the other. Practice it at different speeds, ten to twenty miles per hour, and a few times at speed.

You want to know how it works, and what to expect from your emergency brake as much as you need to know that it is properly adjusted and usable! There have been a few times in my life that I was very happy I had done that myself when suddenly faced with a sudden catastrophic brake failure! And a few of those times were in relatively modern cars. A pickup I used for work for many years twice blew something without warning causing total service brake failure. The kicker was, that due to poor design, the "emergency brake" was useless. Nothing short of a complete redesign and total system replacement could fix it. In those cases, simply knowing that the emergency brake was useless, saved me the precious seconds instead of trying the emergency brake and go straight to the deep downshifting (at 35 mph, I went straight from forth gear down into second!) and steering out of it!

[EmTee]

11 hours ago, Bloo said:

Do you know how old that hose was?

If new brake hoses are anything like new condensers, age won't be a reliable quality factor.  I replaced the rear hose in my '67 Riviera when my rear brakes failed to fully release.  It collapsed internally despite the fact that it looked perfectly fine on the outside.  I'm thinking that periodically performing Frank's 'driveway test' makes sense... 

[32buick67]

9 hours ago, Hemi Joel said:

Yes, were you there?

No I didn't attend, but I was aware of it, one of my employees lives in town.

I'll have to ask if they were at the parade.

[60FlatTop]

11 hours ago, Hemi Joel said:

The car was restored under previous ownership, completed 23 years ago. Everything was replaced during the restoration. I don't know how long the restoration took, or how old the parts may have been that they used.

Time goes by so fast. Brake and cooling hoses are a couple of those parts that fall into the "Oh, those parts are all new" bracket, and when one starts thinking the time is in decades.

 

I saw that biased wrapped line and wondered if it was a new old stock from the restoration. Could have been on a shelf from before I was born. The new one will probably ribbed due to availability.

 

A lot of parts get an extended use life after a restoration. I have always been concerned about the extended life of brake lining. I have never seen durometer tests but I think they get harder over the years ans less able to grip the drum on a hard stop. Drivers tend to adapt to those long term performance changes. It can come out at times when they are in the passenger seat of their own car.

 

I remember a girlfriend I had a long time ago who had a Chevy Vega with a bad rear control arm bushing. She complained that it pulled to the left when you took your foot off the gas. I tested it for her. I can still hear her scream "Not when another car is coming!". She had adapted, like an old car owner.

[TTR]

12 hours ago, c49er said:

That hose looks really old...

…and doesn’t quite look like one made/intended to be used for automotive braking system.

 

While there are varying opinions among some of my safety conscious colleagues about the service life, i.e. replacement intervals, of brake hoses & other related non-solid components, anything over 10 years is generally considered beyond foolish.

 

I mean if someone buys a vintage vehicle and it doesn’t come with documentation clearly showing brake, fuel or any other safety related system having been completely refurbished/serviced within 10 years prior to sale, I usually recommend, highly, to have all redone before any use beyond test drive.

More so if the vehicle has not seen regular maintenance and use, like those having mostly sat in “collections” or museums, etc.

 

But the main thing in this case was that nobody was hurt or worse.

Edited August 6, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[V16]

Hey Joel, thanks for posting this. Great that you were able to Save the situation. Quick thinking and Gods intervention. So glad you or the car were not hurt. Need to get the J back on the road, Allen

[Terry Bond]

First, I know very little about the Cords.  I am curious though to know why a flexible hose is being used between two apparently solid points in the brake system.  Flexible brake lines are used where flexibility is required, e.g. from hard pipes to the backing plate (or caliper) on a wheel.  Looking at your photo there doesn't appear to be any need for flexibility in that rubber hose.  Logic seems a hard pipe, protected by a spiral spring-like covering would be more appropriate.  As has already been mentioned, flexible hoses can collapse internally also. 

Terry

Edited August 6, 2023 by Terry Bond (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

12 minutes ago, Terry Bond said:

First, I know very little about the Cords.  I am curious though to know why a flexible hose is being used between two solid points in the brake system.  Flexible brake lines are used where flexibility is required, e.g. from hard pipes to the backing plate (or caliper) on a wheel.  Looking at your photo there doesn't appear to be any need for flexibility in that rubber hose.  Logic seems a hard pipe, protected by a spiral spring-like covering would be more appropriate.  As has already been mentioned, flexible hoses can collapse internally also. 

Terry

Looks like the hose is between the chassis and axle.  Probably connected to a junction block we can't see where the lines running along the axle connect.   Just a guess,  but that's what it looks like to me.  Kind of makes you appreciate Hudson's system like my Big Boy had where there was a fail safe that if you lost the hydraulics pressing the pedal far enough would actuate the brake cables to the back through a strange boomerang linkage. 

[Hemi Joel]

30 minutes ago, Terry Bond said:

First, I know very little about the Cords.  I am curious though to know why a flexible hose is being used between two apparently solid points in the brake system.  Flexible brake lines are used where flexibility is required, e.g. from hard pipes to the backing plate (or caliper) on a wheel.  Looking at your photo there doesn't appear to be any need for flexibility in that rubber hose.  Logic seems a hard pipe, protected by a spiral spring-like covering would be more appropriate.  As has already been mentioned, flexible hoses can collapse internally also. 

Terry

 Terry, Auburn seeker has it right. On the right in the picture, that I beam under the hose is the rear axle. The hose is attached to a bracket on top of the axle with a T that has hard lines going to each wheel cylinder. The left end of the hose is attached to the chassis. Remember, a Cord is front wheel drive so the rear axle does not look like what you were probably thinking it would.

[Hemi Joel]

1 hour ago, V16 said:

Hey Joel, thanks for posting this. Great that you were able to Save the situation. Quick thinking and Gods intervention. So glad you or the car were not hurt. Need to get the J back on the road, Allen

 

Thanks Allen. And you can be sure that when the J hits the road again, it will have new hoses!

[60FlatTop]

I looked at the spring and shock configuration and decided it was the bogie axle. The fittings and biased wrap look like commercial hydraulic materials. It would be nice to compare it to an original before replacing it with the same thing.

 

The incident is unfortunate but it does open a great topic to discuss a few facets of restoration and maintenance.

 

I am from the Rochester, New York area and many restoration parts were fabricated at Eastman Kodak Company. They were made in the shops and went out the door in lunch boxes. The big stuff was built and tagged as scrap where it could be purchased on Saturday in the surplus lot. Lots of high quality material was used that may not have been suitable for automotive. Stainless steel was popular, as were grade 8 bolts, brass, copper, silver solder, and just about anything that appeared to be premium or costly.

 

Those parts are still in cars today and I am sure the mindset existed in more shops than just Kodak. Boats were also a big favorite.

So beware of like kind replacements.

[Robert G. Smits]

13 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

The hard HARDER HARDER test is what I give my old cars after they have sat for a month or so. Gives me a sense of brakes going to work.

I do this on my Diesel tow vehicle also.  10 years ago while doing this on my 96 Dodge i blew out a metal line. It had rusted at a bend.  This is also the reason I replace brake fluid every 2 years. I don't want to think about what could have happened while towing.  Better lucky than smart.

[Terry Bond]

Thanks for the info on my amateur assessment.  MGs and Model Ts yes, Cords, not much.

As we say in MG Land, "Safety Fast."

Terry

[Scott Bonesteel]

Thank goodness you were able to avoid what would have been a catastrophe, both for vehicle damage and for potential personal injury.  One 'solution' that has not been mentioned is what Detroit came up with some time ago, that being a dual master cylinder for hydraulic brakes, i.e., a separate hydraulic line system for the front and rear.  I understand we all try to keep our vehicles as original as possible but I believe this is akin to seat belts, turn signals, etc., as a crucial safety feature.  This can be done with minimal changes to the vehicle. On my '34 Plymouth I kept the original pedal cluster, pedal and push rod and made a 2-bolt to 3-bolt adaptor plate to run a dual master in the exact location as the original, single master cylinder.  The line coming off of the original master usually has a T-fitting, splitting the fluid between the front and the rear.  Using that connection point, simply split the lines so they are fed with the dual master and you have a braking system that will still be there sufficiently to stop the vehicle even if a hose/line/fitting/wheel cylinder on one end or the other completely blows out.  When selecting a new dual master, make sure you have one that was designed for drum/drum systems instead of drum/disc systems for best performance, keeping in mind also master cylinder bore size to provide sufficient fluid/hydraulic 'leverage' to your wheel cylinders.

[Paul Dobbin]

Question:  Ho many points are deducted fir a Dual Resevoir Master Cylinder on older cars?   I think it"s worth the points lost.  IMHO.

[Hemi Joel]

4 hours ago, Scott Bonesteel said:

  One 'solution' that has not been mentioned is what Detroit came up with some time ago, that being a dual master cylinder...

 

Scott, that is something to think about...  It seems to me that if it could be undone and put back to original with wrenches, you are not permanently altering the car. 

 

Paul, that's a good question. I don't know the answer. But then the question come to mind: where do you stop? Collapsible steering column, electric wipers, etc.

 

In the interest of safety, I already made one modification: I put a cross-over wire to have brake lights and tail lights on both sides. The light on the right has a clear lens and was a back up light only, so I put a red bulb in it. 

[Scott Bonesteel]

Where you 'stop' is before you run into anything... .  My modification to my Plymouth is just as you describe, can be returned to stock with a couple of wrenches.

[Paul Dobbin]

I also use seat belts and have a third brake light, but I drive my cars a lot more than many here.   I value my cars and life more than

the judges opinions.    These modification are easily reversed if the next caretaker wants to be judged, in the mean time I'm safer.

[Oldsmobile 83]

Wow Joel,what a story.  I am really glad that you didn't hit one of the other cars.  I know if it was me, I would have to check the drivers seat to see if it had changed color.

 

Tim

[Cadillac Fan]

Some Cadillac guys are using this ( they make a bracket to fit this to the original holes). 1938-47.  

 

 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/WIL-260-7563

 

 

I am normally a purest, but after having a similar event in a single circuit break system, I converted to a dual circuit master cylinder.  
 

 

[Bloo]

Dual master cylinders are wildly overrated. Most people who have installed them are not reaping the limited benefits, and probably won't realize that until something else fails. That said, it really doesn't really hurt anything as long as the bore is the right size.

[TTR]

For what it’s worth, while I can see the allure of dual circuit master cylinder in cars not designed/engineered/intended for such, in past 45 years I’ve driven several hundred thousand miles, on two continents, with countless vintage cars featuring single circuit brake systems and can recall only one brake failure incident* in which having a dual circuit would’ve made a difference

 

I believe if one just keeps the car’s OEM system properly maintained/serviced and drives it by being mindful of its shortcomings compared to modern vehicles, the chances of accidents or problems are much lower than those experienced by people in their daily driver vehicles. 

*I’ve probably recounted that story here before and while it was someone else’s (fully restored) car, I can partially blame myself for not having had performed any safety check/inspection or test drives prior to the infamous drive up to the mountains, but since the cause was so unexpected/unusual, it might’ve even slipped by my keen eyes/skills had I performed one.

Edited August 7, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[46 woodie]

Joel, far be it for me to second guess anyone, but with those crimps, the hose looks looks like hydraulic hose. There are all types of hydraulic hose, are you sure that it's rated for brake fluid?

[Tph479]

Same thing happened to me driving a Packard about 3 years ago. Thankfully it was an early Sunday morning and no other cars were around. I'm still finding Dingleberries from that incident!