Just how bad is the Jaguar XJ12?

[Angelfish]

A friend of mine is trying to sell me one.  It's a beautiful car, 1990 XJ12 convertible in light blue (It appears that arctic blue was not available in 1990)  60,000 miles, garaged and well taken care of.   And I have to admit I really want it.   But it's a V12 Jaguar with a pre-Ford electrical system.   Not aware of anyone locally that services them.  

 

So I'm appealing to wisdom found herein to help me come to my senses.   In the event I were to become saddled with it, it would be a twice a month commuter and summer road trip car. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Angelfish (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

I bought Coupe for $200.00 with the idea of parting it out and making a fortune. I did sell the rear axle for $200.00 and made the buyer take the rest of the car with it. Paint on the hood was badly bubbled, I have no idea how they put out the electrical fire, maybe it ended when all the wire was gone. Nice looking car. 

[Terry Bond]

Find a Jag discussion forum and see what kind of problems are being discussed. If you can't find somebody to work on it that might be a clue.  

Terry

[1912Staver]

I used to work on them years ago, but more commonly the 6's and a bit older. Main problem is that they are complex and parts are expensive. And some of the parts available today are aftermarket only and probably of a lesser quality than what was used OEM. The owner of the shop had a better understanding of the injection than I did, so he usually took over if problems were in that area.

 If you have to take the heads off they can be very difficult to remove, and if a stud breaks it often happens down below the head gasket surface in the water  jacket space. Getting the old one out can mean a full engine strip down. 

 So potential for time intensive, expensive repairs. Great cars when in good condition , but like almost all older luxury cars the upkeep costs can be quite high. 

Not uncommon for a Jag 12 that has serious engine troubles to be converted to a SBC. I don't really have a problem with that but some purists might. 

John's cars in Dallas Texas makes a very slick conversion kit.

[Terry Bond]

1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

I used to work on them years ago, but more commonly the 6's and a bit older. Main problem is that they are complex and parts are expensive. And some of the parts available today are aftermarket only and probably of a lesser quality than what was used OEM. The owner of the shop had a better understanding of the injection than I did, so he usually took over if problems were in that area.

 If you have to take the heads off they can be very difficult to remove, and if a stud breaks it often happens down below the head gasket surface in the water  jacket space. Getting the old one out can mean a full engine strip down. 

 So potential for time intensive, expensive repairs. Great cars when in good condition , but like almost all older luxury cars the upkeep costs can be quite high. 

Not uncommon for a Jag 12 that has serious engine troubles to be converted to a SBC. I don't really have a problem with that but some purists might. 

John's cars in Dallas Texas makes a very slick conversion kit.

Agree with that - I have a couple of friends who had the Jags who claim the best "repair" they ever did was put in a Chevy engine.

[hidden_hunter]

At least around here they seem to feature a lot as yard art….

[brasscarguy2]

Having owned a Rolls Royce and Jaguar service center for a number of years in the Seattle area, allow me to offer you some sage advice.

 

There are a mass of typical English rubber hoses all along the top of the motor, vacuum lines, cooling and heater hoses, pressurized fuel injection hoses that by now are needing to be replaced. Very expensive and labor intensive. These engines have a propensity to leak oil, another expensive operation, There are a number of other difficult and expensive problems with the V-12 Jaguars, especially one with this millage and age. We used to have a bit of advice we always told prospective purchaser, We would tell them you really need 2 V-12's. Of course they would ask why, then we would tell them one to get where you are going and the 2nd one to get you back home. They are not the most reliable hence the bad reputation and low resale value. 

 

Buyer beware!!!!!

 

Brasscarguy

 

 

 

 

 

[1937hd45]

Many people came and went looking at the one I had, one guy stood out, and I remember him to this day. The car was parked outside next to the garage. This guy just walked over laid on the gravel and reached under the car with his left arm. Sounded like dry leaves being crushed in a garbage can. He got up and had a hand full of floor pan, wished me good luck and left. 

[Ed Luddy]

If you are shopping for a XJS find one with the inline 6.  Only half as many problems!!

[Walt G]

When they were new they were a problem. I recall a friend ( author Dick Langworth) had one on loan from British Leyland - as the company was named at the time. I was for a road test. Not the most pleasant experience , even when new.

[bryankazmer]

Slightly contrary experience here.  I used an 86 XJS V12 as a daily driver from 1996 - 2000.  I had very few issues, but I bought a car with a known history from new, best one I could find, and maintained it carefully.  As said earlier, parts are expensive.  Fluids had to be checked weekly, even with no visible leaks.  When Lucas stuff failed I replaced with Bosch. Replace rear pads before they can score rotors because of access delight to inboard discs.

Not super quick from a stop because of weight and gearing, but a wonderful road car.  Grace, pace , no so much space.

Putting an SBC in a Jaguar seems the same as putting one in an antique - buy a Chevy if that's what you want.

[Angelfish]

At the end of the day I'll most likely walk away, but it's fun to think about for a day or two.  

 

A cousin of mine put a SBC in his XJ12, something like 400 pounds lighter with the same power.   But it's still a sacrilege and will never be an option I would consider.  

[Terry Harper]

As with many expensive cars - Jaguar Rover, etc. the first owner usually could afford the car and the maintenance. The second owner could afford the car but not the maintenance and it only goes down hill from there.

[60FlatTop]

15 hours ago, Angelfish said:

And I have to admit I really want it.

Looking back over the years the only regrets I have are because of not buying cars I really wanted. I sold the cars that did not meet my expectations. Even made a little money on a few.

"Good sense" never stood in mine way.

 

Read the first two chapters of this before you walk away, insight for any car purchase: http://84.22.143.158/files/Руководства/Иномарки/Jaguar/EXPERIENCE_IN_A_BOOK_Help_For_The_Jaguar_XJ-S_Owner_(2006).pdf

[rocketraider]

Aside from the inherent Jaguar design and manufacturing flaws, I've long thought the big issue with Jaguar in America is that American owners 1) don't understand British (over)engineering thought, and 2) certainly don't understand the British obsession with maintenance.

 

Course one can say the same about Benz and any Italian car. Car ownership in Europe is different than here. People expect to have to take care of a car there. Many Americans drive their car until it breaks, never so much as checking fluid levels or tire pressures. And American carmakers and government enable that with alarms for every conceivable malfunction.😠

 

For someone like me whose career was spent dealing with a lot of nuisance and BS alarm conditions, having my vehicle do the same thing to me in retirement doesn't sit well. Then I come from a time when driver's ed courses included learning how to check fluids, tire pressures, external lamps etc.

[60FlatTop]

The last Jaguar V12 was built in 1996. That is 26 years ago. That Kirby Palm living document contains most of the knowledge gained over that time period, what to do, and how to avoid most of the problems ever experienced. I found that guide about 20 years ago when I bought my first V12 XJS. Had a few in between as well.

14 hours ago, brasscarguy2 said:

ypical English rubber hoses all along the top of the motor, vacuum lines, cooling and heater hoses, pressurized fuel injection hoses that by now are needing to be replaced.

Here is a couple thousand bucks even if you do it yourself. Each fuel injection hose has a dated band secured to it. On a 1990 they are certainly due and likely original. Coolant hoses as well. They are a demanding car. In my instance if I only had one car I would consider an XJS, but not when I have to divide my time and car money. I would buy a nice Cadillac.

 

My livelihood comes from optimizing the way buildings run. I have a question in my introduction spiel, "Is the quietest exhaust fan on your building the one with the broken belt? There are three answers. Two are acceptable." That's pretty much an example of car maintenance, too. So, are the tags on the injector hoses original- three answers.

Edited January 20, 2022 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Avanti Bill]

I had an 1989 XJS coupe that I bought new from chesapeake Cadillac Jaguar and I never left home without my cell phone (bag Phone) and my triple A card!  I sold it in about 2015 for $6000 with 20,000 miles and felt lucky.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Avanti Bill (see edit history)

[Rivguy]

Are you sure that this guy is really your friend? Just kidding! It seems that the only other dead animal that is beat with a longer stick is a Jaguar. For a good reason. As a current owner of three old Jags, I will say that you have to really want one enough to put up with all the hassles. And you have to keep on wanting it, which is where I have had my problems. Every problem can be overcome with time, effort and money. Like all vintage cars they will have issues, and I've read a lot of posts on this forum that have shown me that there are a lot of dedicated owners and restorers out there keeping their favorite car project going.

 

Yes, they are harder to work on then they need to be.

Yes, many of their component parts were not engineered for long trouble free service.

Yes, many shops do not want to work on them, at all. Some that are willing to work on them aren't very knowledgeable. Most dealers will only work on cars newer than ten years old, many Indie shops have also adopted the same standard. They would rather make a steady income servicing late models instead of trying to figure out the problems associated with 25-45 year old cars.

Yes, most models aren't worth very much, now that they are older, which makes them tempting. But they probably won't go up in value very quickly. If at all. 

 

OOPs! I just broke my stick!

 

All kidding aside, they are fantastic cars. In specification they outshine even early Aston Martins, and Jensen Interceptors, and every American muscle car.  Did you know that the XJS is the  half brother to the DB7? It just takes dedication to own one and to bring it back to health and to keep it that way. I think that one XJS will use up the emotional and mental bandwidth of three regular collector cars. So it has to be your priority. 

 

Best of luck.

[plymouthcranbrook]

Well I have no personal experience with any Jaguar but can say that back in the 80’s my wealthy Sister-in-Law had a couple XJ6 four door sedans. She really liked them but after the second one she and my Brother-in-Law had to give up on them. In the shop a lot for the amount of time driven and cost enough to repair that even her love of them gave out. They had to get a third car for her to drive as my Brother-in-Law wanted to use his Cadillac on occasion. She bought a custom Chevy Suburban from some shop in California and was finally happy. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by plymouthcranbrook (see edit history)

[Ed Luddy]

I've chimed in on other posts regarding my past Jaguar car ownership's. When the inline 6 cylinder cars are running good there are few vehicles that can come close to them for overall comfort, handling and pleasure to drive. When I had the chance to do a high speed run on open highway  with no traffic (in my younger days) nothing compared to the Jag's. Even my Porsche 928 S did not feel as good at speed. Certainly not any of the Corvette's. But.... the Corvette's always got me home!

[Robert G. Smits]

As a Jag friend of mine stated "All Jags are low mileage because they spend so much time in the shop".  I would agree on the hose issue.  When I bought my 90 XJS I ordered a hose replacement kit.  Between fuel and coolant there were over 40 hoses.  When properly serviced they are a great road cars in my opinion but certainly not up to the level of the Lexus SC300 and it will always get you home.

[8E45E]

The 1970's and early '80's examples were very substandard, thanks to a rebellious labor force in the UK, bad management, and lack of quality control.  Once Maggie Thatcher got voted in, and went to face the labor unions head on, labor relations for a start, changed, and the product slowly did improve.  (They didn't call her the Iron Maiden for nothing)  She especially targeted British Leyland, being a government owned company, The best thing for Jaguar was installing (Sir) John Egan as head in 1984. What Alan Mulally was to Ford in 2008, John Egan was to Jaguar.  He also got tough with the various suppliers, including Lucas, ICI, etc., and laid down what minimum standards Jaguar would accept for quality of components.  If one compares a 1979 XJ12 with a 1989 XJ12, there is not a lot change to the shape, but one can definitely see the much improved quality of materials, and the higher percentage of Bosch electrical components being used.  If John Egan did not step in, and save what was left of Jaguar in 1984, there might not be a Jaguar today.  https://www.jaguarheritage.com/jaguar-history/jaguar-people/john-egan/

 

Craig

[Digger914]

Last summer my Jaguar collecting friend bought a white 1990 XJ12 convertible from an estate and because he already had a white one that he doesn't drive, I thought he might sell it to me for a reasonable profit, but he wouldn't. He did ask me for a ride out to where the car was parked so he could drive it home and when it wouldn't start, I offered him what he had paid and he still wouldn't sell it. Two weeks later I offered him $500 dollars less than he paid and he still wouldn't sell. Two months a cross town tow and $1,000 later it still wouldn't start and he still wouldn't sell it.

 

At the time this 1990 XJ12 convertible was built Jaguar was having some money trouble and this car was built in the model year change so the wire harness changed mid build and service documentation doesn't match the vehicle. Getting the car running cost my friend more than he paid for both the Jaguars he had bought at that estate sale.

 

Wonderful great riding car, but like they say, if you don't have lots of money and don't like spending your days tinkering with an old car, don't buy an old Jag..

 

[60FlatTop]

16 hours ago, Rivguy said:

All kidding aside, they are fantastic cars.

Jaguars are one of the few cars that you can take for a drive, shut it off, and say "I know where the money was spent.".

 

Reading this topic I will be looking at Jaguar advertisements before the weekend is over.

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[31nash880]

Bought a 87 xj6. Brought it home,gave it a tune up,down the road. It blew up. Swap in a 97 lt with 4 speed. Now it drives as it should. Note, rear brakes are a pain to replace and little room for exhaust. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by 31nash880
Wrong model (see edit history)

[bryankazmer]

It doesn't  drive "as it should" - it drives like a 4speed Chevy.  Not necessarily badly, but not the same as designed.

 

I recall the 12 p1ece exhaust on the XJS - at least each piece was easy to handle that way.

[Studeous]

Two points- They are beautiful. Sometimes self flagellation is a good thing. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

I have 2 requirements for my old cars:

Good looking, and reliable.

 

Some reliable cars aren't good looking;

some good looking cars aren't reliable.

When a car possesses both qualities,

the hobby is much more enjoyable.

[1937hd45]

For the record I really like to one they built on "Road Kill" Dragwar.

[Ed Luddy]

On 1/20/2022 at 4:10 PM, Avanti Bill said:

I had an 1989 XJS coupe that I bought new from chesapeake Cadillac Jaguar and I never left home without my cell phone (bag Phone) and my triple A card!  I sold it in about 2015 for $6000 with 20,000 miles and felt lucky.

I see you are an Avanti owner. I've been wanting to buy another one but have to wait to sell off 2 or 3 other cars. When I sold my 79 Avanti II I used that money to partially fund a 1999 Jaguar XK8 convertible. That was a big mistake! 

[Avanti Bill]

The XJS was a great car to drive but not a great investment or a mechanical masterpiece.  The Avanti is a great car to drive as well and has been trouble free, we'll see what happens on the investment side. 

[Ed Luddy]

2 hours ago, Avanti Bill said:

The XJS was a great car to drive but not a great investment or a mechanical masterpiece.  The Avanti is a great car to drive as well and has been trouble free, we'll see what happens on the investment side. 

My  79 Avanti II was not a good investment, but a car I desired since being 8 yr's old. The fact it was in a storage garage less than 5 blocks from the Studebaker factory in Hamilton Ontario and had a colourful past made me buy it. Now it's one of a very few cars I desire to own again.

[mike6024]

Here's an example of one for sale. Price seems high to me. 104k miles. $14.5k.

https://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/d/shingle-springs-jaguar-xjs-convertible/7426473929.html

[Marty Roth]

1 hour ago, mike6024 said:

Here's an example of one for sale. Price seems high to me. 104k miles. $14.5k.

https://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/d/shingle-springs-jaguar-xjs-convertible/7426473929.html

I loved my 1952 Jaguar XK-120MC back in 1962-1963.

It was exciting to drive, enchanting to observe, and I was able to work on it.

This one seems to be a nightmare under the hood, and would give me a case of the "Willies"!

 

My Citroen  SM and the DS-21, despite their central hydraulic systems, were relatively simple compared to this
Plumber's Nightmare!

Edited January 22, 2022 by Marty Roth (see edit history)

[Mikefit]

My neighbor had 2 given to him   eng was stuck in one. The other one would not run  he used them for yard art   a year later he had to pay i the salvage co to haul them away 

[TAKerry]

My mechanic had one given to him as well. It was bought brand new by his brother and kept maintained with low mileage and was in excellent condition. His brother was getting up there in the age department and wanted 'his younger brother' to have fun with the car. Only it was a 69 xke convertible. Thats one I would keep. The later sedans, although I have always thought they were/are one of the prettiest cars made, not so much.