Antique cars, this year and beyond, what will happen ?

[Fossil]

Why fuss over the money, someone else is going to get it in the end anyway. 

Less worrying and more driving. There's a lot more room on that car for bug splats so get rolling and have fun. 

 

[TTR]

2 hours ago, Fossil said:

Less worrying and more driving. There's a lot more room on that car for bug splats ...

Yeah, you got that right.

These are mostly from last couple of Sundays...

Edited July 24, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Every car is just a driver..........nothing special about any of them..........

[Brill_C-37M_Bus]

I really don’t understand expecting ordinary old cars to be an investment.  Supercars, collector cars, or rarities, I get it, but expecting anything else to leave you a handsome payout must be a generational thing, and one that probably died off a generation ago.

 

Aside from my unusual love of mass transit history, the reason I have a half-operable 30’ bus parked in my small yard is, I wanted to learn more technical skills.  I don’t need them for my job, and I’m really uninterested in learning on a modern car.  I think that is a great reason for a teenager or young adult to get a restoration project.  You can learn great life and career skills, whether it’s one Ford Model T or a collection of mainline railroad cars (yes, there are several young folks who fit that unusual description!).

 

When I found my modern daily driver totally unresponsive today, I didn’t worry for a moment.  I grabbed my tools from working on the bus, tools I wouldn’t own otherwise, and got to work diagnosing automotive electrical 101.  It was just a dome light that got bumped to “on” while unloading, but thanks to just 2 years of very off-and-on wrenching on a vehicle, this whole thing was no sweat.

 

So, this hobby can have a very useful future, and we can help achieve it by dropping the notion that our vehicles require the white glove treatment.  Show folks what they can learn, how it matters, and how much fun you have along the way.

[keithb7]

46 minutes ago, Brill_C-37M_Bus said:

have a half-operable 30’ bus parked in my small yard is, I wanted to learn more technical skills.  I don’t need them for my job, and I’m really uninterested in learning on a modern car.  I think that is a great reason for a teenager or young adult to get a restoration project.  You can learn great life and career skills, whether it’s one Ford Model T or a collection of mainline railroad cars.

 

Touche! Mind my French....That's a large part of where I am too. Loving the wrenching. Loving the rewards and satisfaction. My skills and understanding grow with every repair. Skills and confidence that do indeed transfer over to other things in my life. My old car has opened up tons of development opportunities for me...Still can't believe I rebuilt a manual 3 speed tranny. And it works!

Edited July 25, 2020 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[8E45E]

10 hours ago, keithb7 said:

 

Touche! Mind my French....That's a large part of where I am too. Loving the wrenching. Loving the rewards and satisfaction. My skills and understanding grow with every repair. Skills and confidence that do indeed transfer over to other things in my life. My old car has opened up tons of development opportunities for me...Still can't believe I rebuilt a manual 3 speed tranny. And it works!

Spinning wrenches and maintaining a vehicle is only half of it.

 

The other half is shaping metal, fitting, and welding.

 

Crig

 

[edinmass]

To steal a line from a friend..........

 

 

”Art is to hang on walls, cars are for roads!”

[Fossil]

I love it. Keep up the good work😀

 

[SC38dls]

A couple years ago I went to a cars and coffee at a local guys garage. He was kind enough to to do it occasionally. He has a number of prewar  restored cars including a Cadillac, a Rolls, a Bentley, a Cord and A few more plus about a dozen other post war beauties. He saw me pull up in the 38 and came over and just went on about how great it must be to drive it as a daily driver. I asked him why he didn’t drive any of his except on and off a trailer. His response was they are valuable and he didn’t want that to change by road rash. I responded I’m in my 70’s as he is, my 38 is older than me and is most likely going to out last me. I can’t take it with me so I might as well get all the enjoyment and value out off it I can, you should think about doing the same. He passed about two months later and his kids sold all the cars and the garage. He never put 100 miles on all of the cars combined. Oh yeah he didn’t take them with him either. 
Have fun, drive the wheels off of all the cars you have. 
dave s 

[George Cole]

On 4/17/2020 at 10:27 AM, Buick35 said:

Padgett, We have a lot in common. I live in Florida(Brevard county),lived in the same house since 84,retired in 2016,have one cat on fancy feast although she's pretty old and probably won't be around much longer. However I do have two kids(grown and on their own) a wife and a dog. My son has the old car bug but my wife and daughter not so much.He has a 66 Mustang,a 69 Ghia and bought his wife a 63 bug.I have a 35 Buick and a 74 MGB. Just trying to keep them maintained.Wouldn't mind trading the MG for a different old car. As you know it gets too hot to drive it in the summer. Greg. Stay healthy and what old cars do you have?

Buick 35, you can't be too far away, and likewise, we have a lot in common.  I also live in Brevard Co (Cocoa Beach), in the same house since 1991, and retired in 2018.  I prefer birds to cats.  Kids all grown.  One (unmarried) son shares my interest in cars, but at 35 years old, is still in school.  He has two 97 TransAms, an incomplete 1925 T-bucket (which has been on my patio for 18 years), and my 2002 Eldorado.  He has expressed the desire to inherit most of my cars, at the expense of his 2 sisters who have no interest in them other than for an immediate sale.  All of my cars need work...notwithstanding the issues of having to deal with mega-rust 3 blocks from the ocean.  

[Buick35]

Hi George,My son who's married who turned 31 has a 69 Karmen Ghia that runs but needs mechanical work( has a back fire issue) and a nice 66 Mustang coupe that he'd like to trade for an old truck and bought his wife a 62 VW bug.His sister is 37 and engaged but I don't think she's into cars. As for me I have a 35 Buick and a 74 mgb. I hope we don't get any hurricanes this year and that things will get back to normal again, stay healthy.Greg.

[Morgansdad]

Wow, there is a lot of opinions here on this subject. I don't think many if any of us on here obtained any of our cars, trucks, or whatever we are into thinking it was going to be our "golden ticket" in retirement. My  plan is to give my sons my cars whenever  they want them. Don't really care what the value is. I once heard a classic was only worth what someone was willing to pay for it and I for one believe it will always be that way. I do wish more people were into this hobby though. We have a local drive in restaurant that still holds weekly car shows. although, there aren't as many cars as used to be. Thanks for listening.

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, Morgansdad said:

Wow, there is a lot of opinions here on this subject. I don't think many if any of us on here obtained any of our cars, trucks, or whatever we are into thinking it was going to be our "golden ticket" in retirement. My  plan is to give my sons my cars whenever  they want them. Don't really care what the value is. I once heard a classic was only worth what someone was willing to pay for it and I for one believe it will always be that way. I do wish more people were into this hobby though. We have a local drive in restaurant that still holds weekly car shows. although, there aren't as many cars as used to be. Thanks for listening.

 

I think most people come into this hobby for the right reasons--they love the cars. I don't believe anyone sincerely thinks it's a profit center when they buy an old car.

But many, many people end up there somehow after they've had the car for a while. They add up what they've spent to buy and maintain the car, or the extra work they've done to improve its condition and assume it's more valuable because of it. Then at sale time they start thinking about how much money went into that project and worry that it's just gone, poof! That's when they start thinking they should get their money back. And I think the next step in that thought process is, "Well, if I'm asking for all my repairs to be repaid, why not see if I can get a little extra? Let's see what the market will bear and maybe there's someone out there who will be dying to buy it." An inflated number starts to sound reasonable to them and if they dig deep enough, they'll find a few cars that are similar with big prices and figure maybe they're not out of line. It's very easy for people to talk themselves into an over-inflated sense of value in their car. It's natural--nobody wants to lose or admit they made a mistake, right? They don't think about the cost of the fun they had with the car, they just think of the expenses related to owning it.

 

Everyone here is susceptible to that kind of thinking and I bet many of you know how much you have "invested" in your cars (I tell my clients it is ALWAYS a mistake to add up the receipts or--God forbid--keep a spreadsheet). While you're enjoying them and embrace the idea that it's a hobby and not a profit center, and that the fun you're having has a cost. I bet you also know about how much your car is worth (or how much you think it's worth), and that it changes every time you see one bring big money somewhere or when you do something to upgrade the car. It isn't a different mindset, just an evolution of the mindset we all share. 

 

Totally normal, not a problem, and it's very common. It isn't a different group of "outsiders" in the hobby doing this, it's everyone.

Again, I'm not saying anyone is thinking, "I'm gonna get rich by selling my cars," but rather, "I'd like to get all my money back." Ultimately, it kind of ends up being the same thing in terms of unrealistic expectations.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[padgett]

Interesting. I just think of all as big toys that require responsibility in how they are used. My credo is not to spend more than have (IRS and Medicare make retirement planning "interesting".)

 

I do keep spreadsheets, mainly RPM vs MPH in gears vs tire size (for me 1900 rpm at 70 mph is the sweet spot) and length-width vs how to fit in stalls (need to rearrange a few things for himmicane season) but is part of the reason I live 80 miles from the coast.

 

Bet my cats would just love your birds.

[8E45E]

25 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

I think most people come into this hobby for the right reasons--they love the cars. I don't believe anyone sincerely thinks it's a profit center when they buy an old car.

But many, many people end up there somehow after they've had the car for a while. They add up what they've spent to buy and maintain the car, or the extra work they've done to improve its condition and assume it's more valuable because of it. Then at sale time they start thinking about how much money went into that project and worry that it's just gone, poof! That's when they start thinking they should get their money back. And I think the next step in that thought process is, "Well, if I'm asking for all my repairs to be repaid, why not see if I can get a little extra? Let's see what the market will bear and maybe there's someone out there who will be dying to buy it." An inflated number starts to sound reasonable to them and if they dig deep enough, they'll find a few cars that are similar with big prices and figure maybe they're not out of line. It's very easy for people to talk themselves into an over-inflated sense of value in their car. It's natural--nobody wants to lose or admit they made a mistake, right? They don't think about the cost of the fun they had with the car, they just thing of the expenses related to owning it.

 

Everyone here is susceptible to that kind of thinking and I bet many of you know how much you have "invested" in your cars (I tell my clients it is ALWAYS a mistake to add up the receipts or--God forbid--keep a spreadsheet). While you're enjoying them and embrace the idea that it's a hobby and not a profit center, and that the fun you're having has a cost. I bet you also know about how much your car is worth (or how much you think it's worth), and that it changes every time you see one bring big money somewhere or when you do something to upgrade the car. It isn't a different mindset, just an evolution of the mindset we all share. 

 

Totally normal, not a problem, and it's very common. It isn't a different group of "outsiders" in the hobby doing this, it's everyone.

Again, I'm not saying anyone is thinking, "I'm gonna get rich by selling my cars," but rather, "I'd like to get all my money back." Ultimately, it kind of ends up being the same thing in terms of unrealistic expectations.

I would also add the heirs of someone's collection also fall into this trap. 

 

Either they totally reasurred their spouse and their kids before he passed that its 'an investment', or 'worth a fortune' to appease her constant complaining about it being a money pit while he restored it, or even though its still in pieces in the garage and in the house under restoration.  Unfortunately, the reality only sets in after he passes and she finds out what its REALLY worth on the market, especially an uncompleted project in many pieces.

 

Craig

Edited July 25, 2020 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[padgett]

Good point and why I try to keep mine is "go to LALA land tomorrow" condition. SLK230 still needs a fuel system flush &  fuel pump so a day or two but is not in the way but reast about a 1/2 hour away. Try to fire all and run to temp at least monthly. Park pointing exhaust at door.

 

Is sad when have to explain to a widow that their "nest egg" is a rusty parts car with a disassembled engine but when 1,000 miles away can't do much more. Also trying to explain to someone that a car with an inherited Texas title is worth $500 less in Florida (last time I tried, it took a year and a lawyer).

[Fossil]

6 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Again, I'm not saying anyone is thinking, "I'm gonna get rich by selling my cars," but rather, "I'd like to get all my money back." Ultimately, it kind of ends up being the same thing in terms of unrealistic expectations.

Matt don't get me wrong,  I respect what you have to say and it's well written.  I have been telling family members the same thing. "The car isn't worth what your all thinking it is"  It's just the irony of it coming from a guy who buys and sells cars hoping to make a profit.  🙂

Looking forward to your posts in the future. 

Chris

[1912Staver]

The reality is that some of us can afford an expensive hobby, that is the car expenses can be considered money just spent. And some of us need to recover at least part of what others will call  " spent money ". We are very interested in vintage gars but not nearly wealthy enough

to just write those expenses off as part of the cost of the hobby. 

It makes the need for adopting the right car from the outset crucial. Fall in love with and enjoy a car with long term demand, and therefore a reasonable chance of better than average cost recovery when it is time for it to leave your life. Not in most cases a profit, just a minimized loss.

Hard for a new guy entering the hobby unless he has grown up in a old car family, but something someone after the first decade of involvement or so should have a good idea about. As long as you are one of the people who can only marginally afford old cars.

 Nearly all my cars ; projects or runners, were rarish cars with a strong at least cult following. And what I would call " well bought ".  There are one or two { Ford's } that will be a loss situation, but the others should ; even in a down market , come close to a break even situation.

 The worst case situation is a person who has a somewhat run of the mill car worked on in a professional shop .Definitely " spent money "

 

Greg in Canada

Edited July 26, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1950panhead]

I think most people come into this hobby for the right reasons--they love the cars. I don't believe anyone sincerely thinks it's a profit center when they buy an old car.


But many, many people end up there somehow after they've had the car for a while. They add up what they've spent to buy and maintain the car, or the extra work they've done to improve its condition and assume it's more valuable because of it. Then at sale time they start thinking about how much money went into that project and worry that it's just gone, poof! That's when they start thinking they should get their money back. And I think the next step in that thought process is, "Well, if I'm asking for all my repairs to be repaid, why not see if I can get a little extra? Let's see what the market will bear and maybe there's someone out there who will be dying to buy it." An inflated number starts to sound reasonable to them and if they dig deep enough, they'll find a few cars that are similar with big prices and figure maybe they're not out of line. It's very easy for people to talk themselves into an over-inflated sense of value in their car. It's natural--nobody wants to lose or admit they made a mistake, right? They don't think about the cost of the fun they had with the car, they just think of the expenses related to owning it.

 

Everyone here is susceptible to that kind of thinking and I bet many of you know how much you have "invested" in your cars (I tell my clients it is ALWAYS a mistake to add up the receipts or--God forbid--keep a spreadsheet). While you're enjoying them and embrace the idea that it's a hobby and not a profit center, and that the fun you're having has a cost. I bet you also know about how much your car is worth (or how much you think it's worth), and that it changes every time you see one bring big money somewhere or when you do something to upgrade the car. It isn't a different mindset, just an evolution of the mindset we all share. 

 

Totally normal, not a problem, and it's very common. It isn't a different group of "outsiders" in the hobby doing this, it's everyone.


Again, I'm not saying anyone is thinking, "I'm gonna get rich by selling my cars," but rather, "I'd like to get all my money back." Ultimately, it kind of ends up being the same thing in terms of unrealistic expectations.

Matt,

Thanks for posting, I enjoy reading your posts.

Amazed at current prices of old cars and stock market, nothing wrong at all, pay no attention to 150k dead.

 

[58L-Y8]

22 hours ago, SC38DLS said:

Have fun, drive the wheels off of all the cars you have. 
dave s 

Absolutely!  A shiny collector car setting in the garage because its too perfect or valuable to expose to the vicissitudes of the outside world is the automotive equivalent of a giant four-wheeled Hummel figurine.  

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

The reality is that some of us can afford an expensive hobby, that is the car expenses can be considered money just spent. And some of us need to recover at least part of what others will call  " spent money ". We are very interested in vintage gars but not nearly wealthy enough

to just write those expenses off as part of the cost of the hobby. 

 

Greg in Canada

 

Why do we need to recover the costs of enjoying a car? Do we need to recover the cost of a movie ticket after we've seen the film? The cost of a good meal? Come back from a vacation and expect people to pay us to look at our photos? If one can't afford that part of it, instead of demanding that the market should accommodate our unrealistic expectations, perhaps it would be logical to find a hobby that makes fewer financial demands. I know, I know, I don't know what else I would do, either. So I pay to play. That's the choice.

 

It's not a matter of being wealthy enough to "write off" the expense of owning an old car. It's a matter of accepting that it's part of the deal just like buying a glove is part of the expense of joining a softball league where, you know, you have fun.

 

Also bear in mind that very few cars turn into a $0 when you're done. Getting a lot vs. all of your money back is the difference. That seems like a fair trade, does it not?

[29hupp]

Just now, Matt Harwood said:

 

Why do we need to recover the costs of enjoying a car? Do we need to recover the cost of a movie ticket after we've seen the film? The cost of a good meal? Come back from a vacation and expect people to pay us to look at our photos? If one can't afford that part of it, instead of demanding that the market should accommodate our unrealistic expectations, perhaps it would be logical to find a hobby that makes fewer financial demands. I know, I know, I don't know what else I would do, either. So I pay to play. That's the choice.

 

It's not a matter of being wealthy enough to "write off" the expense of owning an old car. It's a matter of accepting that it's part of the deal just like buying a glove is part of the expense of joining a softball league where, you know, you have fun.

 

Also bear in mind that very few cars turn into a $0 when you're done. Getting a lot vs. all of your money back is the difference. That seems like a fair trade, does it not?

Very well stated Matt.  I couldn't agree more!

[1912Staver]

No offense intended Matt, but in that case I would simply not be a part of this hobby. If I could " pay to play " I would. But we have to play the cards we are dealt.

I have a couple of cars that were seriously well bought, and that I could definately sell for a very tidy { by my standards } profit.  But that's not why I bought them,. They are

my two best cars and If I sold them I could never justify buying back something similar at the prevailing market price. I bought them for me, not resale.

When I go I am sure either my Wife or my Son will do well on them, they are not the sort of cars that go in and out of fashion. But what they sell for is not the point.

The point is that I can enjoy them and not be in a money pit situation. $ are hard won around here. Some of my friends would rate money as being way down on the list of hobby related problems,

 age is probably #1 for most of them. But I am both younger and poorer. So yes cost matters, and non -recoverable cost is something I go to lenghts to avoid. It just comes

down to playing the best game you can with the cards you are dealt.

 You make it sound like I should just collect clocks. It's a big hobby , there is room for all of our various approaches. I am gaga over Brass cars and 60's /70's British sports and race cars,

you like the big Classics. All are great in their own way. 

 

Greg

Edited July 26, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

On 7/25/2020 at 11:51 PM, Fossil said:

It's just the irony of it coming from a guy who buys and sells cars hoping to make a profit.  🙂

 

Chris

 

I understand that. I fight with this cognitive dissonance all the time. And I am frequently reminded by members of this forum--far more often than seems healthy, it seems--that I am a bad person and that I'm the reason "their hobby" is going down the tubes and why they can't afford the cars of their dreams. The number of PMs I get are about equally divided between guys with genuine, helpful questions and answers, and comments and guys grinding axes and telling me I'm the source of all their woes. I get it. 

 

On the other hand, I have experiences and connections and insights that the average hobbyist doesn't. This side of the table looks a lot different than I thought it would when I was a "civilian." It allows me to see that most car guys are the same, in the same good ways and the same bad ways. So I figure those insights are a little, um, insightful for guys who don't get to see them or figure they know all there is to know or think they're the exception. 

 

I really try to keep my presence here from being self-serving. I don't tell people their cars are falling in value or not to expect top dollar because I expect to swoop in and buy them for pennies-on-the-dollar. I don't advertise here to take advantage of free advertising, but rather to show people cars that maybe they wouldn't see--I don't post everything I have, only the cars that I think someone here might enjoy. My comments are colored by the fact that from where I'm sitting, looking at thousands of cars and conducting hundreds of transactions a year, I have real-world data that shows me things a regular hobbyist might not see and I hope people find that interesting and useful. 

 

And by the way, I'm not getting rich doing this. I'm upside-down on all my personal cars by a wide margin. My stuff breaks and makes me frustrated like everyone else's. And I'm not trying to ruin the hobby, I just sort of ended up here and it's the first time in my professional life that I don't feel like I'm wasting my life.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Matt if I was ever in the position to buy a car from a dealer you would be the first place I looked.  I do respect what you stand for in the business. But some of us are very stretched to  participate in this hobby.

After 50 years of being a old car fan a " black " Model T or a Model A sedan just does not do it for me. So a person has to be resourceful. and cost aware. Just a different , non- mainstream approach to the problem.

 

Greg 

[Walt G]

Matt I have seen you numerous times over the past decade at car club functions ( mostly CCCA) that you bring your family too - wife and kids. You were completely  "in it"  - involved in the hobby aspect. If it were just for the buying and selling/wheeling and dealing then in my opinion they would never be at any of the events!  We have all read of your trial and tribulations with the rebuilding of the motor for your Lincoln, ( all of us could be in the same situation) . You are a true old car guy who also happens to make a living finding and selling cars. There isn't anything wrong with that. You are helpful with your suggestions to solve problems members post that they are having with their cars etc. and there is no shadow hanging over this that suggests an alternative  motive . I don't see any of that . I have seen a lot of people buy and sell old cars, parts, automobilia over the decades since I bought my first old car in 1963 at age 13. You don't promote yourself like some previous dealers ( enthusiasts???) in automotive items have , do not refer to your self as "Big Hearted Matt"  ( anyone recall the other "Big Hearted " character ?!? who used that description) .

WG

[1912Staver]

But the key is the "reasonably afford " part. It is fairly easy to find a decent deal on a 52 Plymouth. To bag a more interesting car a affordable price takes a lot more time, effort and a good measure of luck.

It can be done , but most of my "well bought " deals took years or even in the case of my TVR ,2 decades of looking. A local car { the border is a decent deal killer for my situation in most cases }, at the right price.

Most of the local ones have either been exported or had buckets of money dumped into them. Often with a swap to a 5 Lit. Ford , a factory option so a bolt in. But a street animal car and not what I wanted. { like the white one in the video}

So well outside my price range. But persistence and a bit of compromise ; I wanted a Vixen like I owned back in the mid 1980's, but eventually settled on a 2500 M, and I had my car at my price.

I could have found a decent value for money early 1950's Plymouth { convertible excepted } probably within a year, but they just don't do anything for me.  If they are your thing, all the power to you.

But there is no one size fits all in the hobby car world. Many people have no interest at all in a TVR, but those who like them like them allot! They are one of the closet to a real race car things that you can bolt license 

plates on to. Many couldn't care less.  They sold way more Plymouths than TVR's. A huge number of Plymouth's have been scrapped, TVR survivors are a very large percentage of those built. Trust me , there is a reason for that.

 

I am still in my 60's so these sort of cars have appeal.  The Cadillacs and Lincoln's can wait at least a decade.

 

It's hard to get this sort of driving experence in a Plymouth. { see video}

 

Greg

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Fossil]

58 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I understand that. I fight with this cognitive dissonance all the time. And I am frequently reminded by members of this forum--far more often that seems healthy, it seems--that I am a bad person and that I'm the reason "their hobby" is going down the tubes and why they can't afford the cars of their dreams.

 That truly is a shame that you've been made to feel that way. It was not my intention to place you in any kind of bad light and was actually chuckling about your post. Your in a better position than most to know what is going on in the market and I'm sure most appreciate your insight as do I. 

Again thanks for your comments.

[alsancle]

This car was pointed out to me by  a forum member this morning.   We know that Mark gets full retail for the stuff he sells.    My serious question is could you cover the cost of restoring the inside of that car for the 48,500 asking price? 

 

This is a big boy btw,  414 cubes in that six.   Practically for free.

 

https://hymanltd.com/vehicles/6723-1923-pierce-arrow-33-vestibule-sedan/

 

[1912Staver]

No ,you could not even come close to restoring this car for the asking price. A wonderful object , but truly a lumbering tank of a car. It's just not a 30 M.P.H. world anymore.

A great price as a display object /  historical artifact , but that same close to 50 K would buy many lesser pedigree but vastly more usable vintage cars.

Cars like this are a real dilemma in the  current market. So much quality, wrapped up in way too much car.

 

Greg in Canada... I am a sports car guy, but I like and appreciate the engineering of the top makes in this era.

[John_Mereness]

I saw some conversations above via Matt and several others.  

 

Yes, no problem in coming out backwards as happens all the time and .... - you just get use to it.  I think it important to factor into any car purchase or restoration project = "s - -" happens and you often have to buy your way out of it.    But, when it comes time to sell I know Matt (just as any other dealer) is faced with "I have to get X for the car as that is what I have in it" or I have to get X for the car as that is as low as I will go with offset my loss" and the reply I give is the market is the market and that logic does not apply, excepting there are some really rare things that exceed costs and sure there are 100 point fresh out of the box things that go higher just because they are fresh out of the box, but for the most part markets are pretty defined.

 

Then there is the flip side of the coin - I hate green cars or that black interior makes it like sitting a hole - I think I have heard every excuse possible to "nickle and dime" the purchase a nice car, but I am sure I have not heard all yet.   Basically, I know very well how hard it is for people to pry their wallet open - try to get mine open and you will may a fight on your hands too.  

 

What is sad is when the negatives stop people dead in their tracks - I used the example of the friend with the 1925 Master Series Buick that has a water pump issue - his dream of driving it on Southern Ohio Region AACA tours is derailed (15 years now) as he cannot afford the elaborate machine work, his standards are too high to take short cuts,  and .... (I have been tempted to just grab up all his parts and cobble something together, but do not want in the middle of that discussion).   

 

By the way, when I buy a nice Model A Ford part the first word out of my mouth is "its free" - well is is free compared to Packard, Cadillac, Auburn and .. parts, yet I know there are collectors asking for used parts to keep their Model A's on the road (and I have an admiration for them keeping their cars on the road too as long as not penny wise pound foolish - ex. I know people who have not bought a radiator to find they destroyed their engine in exchange and I know a few Auburn people who have done same too).

[John_Mereness]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

This car was pointed out to me by  a forum member this morning.   We know that Mark gets full retail for the stuff he sells.    My serious question is could you cover the cost of restoring the inside of that car for the 48,500 asking price? 

 

This is a big boy btw,  414 cubes in that six.   Practically for free.

 

https://hymanltd.com/vehicles/6723-1923-pierce-arrow-33-vestibule-sedan/

 

My first thoughts were - lovely car and restoration far exceeds the value, but with its sails up and a good strong wind it probably runs out of gearing at 50 mph.   The good news is it is really a lovely car and surely it will be cherished in a new home.  Perhaps someone in Los Angeles - it can keep up in their traffic and would be great for HCCA tours. 

[John_Mereness]

There is also a flip side of the coin - I can take you to garage after garage of people that have no intention of showing, driving, restoring, collecting needed parts, or really doing anything with their car(s) - they just own it/them and that is that.

 

Personally, I do not understand the viewpoint, but it is their viewpoint. 

 

Sidenote:  And, then X comes on the marketplace and the new owner is all enthusiastic until they find out they missed the boat on all the reproduction parts made 10 years prior that they need to restore it and as a result it will cost double or triple to restore now matched to a bunch of really not fun projects. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

I think that I remember hearing in a great movie that I have watched many times - "you had better get busy living or get busy dying".  How does one put a price tag on driving down the road on a beautiful Fall afternoon in an open Brass Era touring car?  I am a Cancer Survivor who is living on borrowed time the way I see it.  We are not wealthy people, but, we have enough to do the things that we want to do and have a trainload of fun along the way.  I have told my wife that I hope the money runs out the day that the last one dies.  The way I see it - chasing dollar bills is a no win situation to be in.

 

Terry and Barbara Wiegand

South Hutchinson, (Doo Dah) Kansas

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

My first thoughts were - lovely car and restoration far exceeds the value, but with its sails up and a good strong wind it probably runs out of gearing at 50 mph.   The good news is it is really a lovely car and surely it will be cherished in a new home.  Perhaps someone in Los Angeles - it can keep up in their traffic and would be great for HCCA tours. 

 

 

Having driven these cars.........with 5-8 grand of modifications you could drive all day at 55mph. I would add front brakes..........about 3k all in using a later Pierce axel. Trust me, the car is free at asking price. That is a BIG BOY toy from the mid 20's and can be made into a fantastic higher speed driver with little effort. A fine car at 45mph all day long, and it will pull any hill in direct that you can find. It's a better investment than ANY new car you can buy on a percentage basis over five years.

Edited July 27, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[padgett]

I suspect there are as many different stories as people here. I am always sad when envy (green eyed monster) shows up instead of admiration for someone like Matt who had made it in a difficult world. Firmly believe that no dishonest person cam make if for long (unless in certain professions that shall not be mentioned) besides being honest requires much less work. Admit that sometimes flyers are thrown out just to see what the reaction is (particularly if it is funny).

 

TVRs are neat cars just remember Mike and Edd replacing the frame on one (Chimaera ?). Have seen a Griffith roadster (coupe was too hot for Florida even when new) at local events and the owner obviously loves it.

 

Over the years have been fortunate to have had some very interesting cars, but have always been into computers...

[1935Packard]

That Pierce!  The garage is full, but man, that's a crazy amount of car for that amount of money.  

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

There are some who only want a certain car and sometimes it can be very expensive. Some ,also ,enjoy the thrill of the hunt.  As you said , to each his own.

Very True !  

 

I see your TVR and have had incredible opportunities one after the next to buy them, though I have never driven one and never written a check for one either (in their defense - they are cool cars too and have a great group of friends with them) - I drive a 1963 AH 300 BJ7 MKII - there are probably a dozen better 1961 to 1967 3000 examples on the globe (I went really out of anyone's reasonable way to find - looked at probably 30 cars with 30K miles each and bought this one at 60K miles, but it was better condition than all those 30 having gone from one AH Club President to the next and having been a true hobby car since day one).   

 

There is another mistake people make and that is not buying "what is for them" - they set out to find say a Model A Ford and get a 30's say Dodge and the car does not really fit them, the club does not fit them, or ... Same thing goes for say they want a 1931 Auburn and get a 1929 Auburn - the driveability of the cars is like night and day.  The first time I had the 35 Auburn out we had a garage sale of all the pre-war stuff, excepting the 41 Cadillac hung around a few more years - the driveability is fantastic, nice size, and ... - checks my boxes.   And, I seem to have Packards pass through - they find me and dad grumbles.  I do like 1929-32 cars - they just tend to be a little more poky than I like - but will find another that suits me.   It unfortunately takes going through a lot of cars to figure this all out - some people are lucky and get "it" on day one and others are perhaps not as lucky early in the game (but hopefully they figure it out better late than never).  Moral:  If it is not right for you then set it free and get what is right for you !!!

[Larry Schramm]

Some thoughts that I might interject in the discussion.  Up until about 10 years ago I like most struggled with money for the old car hobby.  Life kept getting in the way with three offspring.  We were fortunate to have just the '15 truck and the '76 Corvette that we purchased as a wedding present to ourselves 42 years ago and just never sold.  When the offspring left the nest, it was WOW, where did all of this extra money come from??

 

We now own six pre-1920 vehicles, I would say that I might know a little bit about that market except high end cars.  High end cars are not in my wheelhouse.   When someone asks me about what type of car to own, my first questions are how much do you want to spend and how good of a mechanic are you to fix the car you want? (this includes mechanical knowledge).  Also how many tools do you have to do the repairs?  These questions answer a lot.  Most of the time, two of the three questions are none or not much.  For beginners, I will typically suggest a Model T as simple to work on, parts are totally available and there is a ton of information on the car.  Some of them say yuk and look for a less popular car with less support and fewer parts available.  To each his own learning curve.

 

I pass on comments for "newer" cars & trucks.

 

Another thing that I have told some persons when the topic comes up is how much to "restore" a car.  My comment to that is do you know how to turn $100,000.00 into $25,000.00?  I tell them to restore a car.  NOW, I KNOW there are exceptions, but the Pierce above is a good example.

 

One of my greatest joys is driving all of our brass & nickel cars when they are running. (even my wife's sports cars). 

 

I look at every day that we are on tour with friends is like a day at an Disney or another amusement park. It is in guesstimated numbers, $100.00/ day of entertainment per person that is with us for the day.  When you take the experience value from the cost of the car, the car cost becomes nominal.

 

My current objective is to get my daughter and her new husband touring with us.  He is a car guy and I figure If I can get him on tour with us, he will be hooked on the brass & nickel stuff. They already  own a Corvette. 

 

Planning ahead, I bought the Model T in anticipation if the Model T club does the Ocean to Ocean tour in about 8 years again,  God willing and the creek don't rise, my wife and I are planning on taking our grandsons on that tour.  They should be about 10 & 14.

 

Just my simple thoughts. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

Very True !  

 

I see your TVR and have had incredible opportunities one after the next to buy them, though I have never driven one and never written a check for one either (in their defense - they are cool cars too and have a great group of friends with them) - I drive a 1963 AH 300 BJ7 MKII - there are probably a dozen better 1961 to 1967 3000 examples on the globe (I went really out of anyone's reasonable way to find - looked at probably 30 cars with 30K miles each and bought this one at 60K miles, but it was better condition than all those 30 having gone from one AH Club President to the next and having been a true hobby car since day one).   

 

There is another mistake people make and that is not buying "what is for them" - they set out to find say a Model A Ford and get a 30's say Dodge and the car does not really fit them, the club does not fit them, or ... Same thing goes for say they want a 1931 Auburn and get a 1929 Auburn - the driveability of the cars is like night and day.  The first time I had the 35 Auburn out we had a garage sale of all the pre-war stuff, excepting the 41 Cadillac hung around a few more years - the driveability is fantastic, nice size, and ... - checks my boxes.   And, I seem to have Packards pass through - they find me and dad grumbles.  I do like 1929-32 cars - they just tend to be a little more poky than I like - but will find another that suits me.   It unfortunately takes going through a lot of cars to figure this all out - some people are lucky and get "it" on day one and others are perhaps not as lucky early in the game (but hopefully they figure it out better late than never).  Moral:  If it is not right for you then set it free and get what is right for you !!!

 

You should really try driving one. A world of difference between a 3000 and a 2500 M in the handling dept. The 3000 has more torque. The TVR has a chassis just as at home on the track as the street.

The hot V6's were not generally available in North America because of emissions.

The TR6 drivetrain in a 2500 Vixen or 2500 M is sort of lame in the power dept. compared to the U.K. market cars. That's why many 2500's are converted to 5000's . But that takes you from too little power to too much for 

day in day out use. The UK , V6 cars are the sweet spot, but they use a forbidden by the EPA engine.  The 1980's  Toyota Supra engine and gearbox are becoming popular with TVR drivers.  More power than the TR lump,

no additional weight , and all the power you really need short of a hill climb car.

 No offense but I find Big Healey's a bit lacking in the chassis dept. Great looking cars, but their early 1950's engineering is just a bit too primitive for my driving. They are also very expensive for my budget.

Unfortunately TVR's have become very rare in my area. The early cars have almost all been exported to Europe , with many of the M era cars one by one going as well. They were way cheaper around here than in

Europe, mid 1980's onward. And off they went , never to return.  The Vancouver area had a reasonably active dealer and there were quite a few locally when I was a teenager. But no more.

Bringing one in from the U.S. doesn't work anymore due to the exchange.

 

Greg

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)