Antique cars, this year and beyond, what will happen ?

[1912Staver]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

Very True !  

 

I see your TVR and have had incredible opportunities one after the next to buy them, though I have never driven one and never written a check for one either (in their defense - they are cool cars too and have a great group of friends with them) - I drive a 1963 AH 300 BJ7 MKII - there are probably a dozen better 1961 to 1967 3000 examples on the globe (I went really out of anyone's reasonable way to find - looked at probably 30 cars with 30K miles each and bought this one at 60K miles, but it was better condition than all those 30 having gone from one AH Club President to the next and having been a true hobby car since day one).   

 

There is another mistake people make and that is not buying "what is for them" - they set out to find say a Model A Ford and get a 30's say Dodge and the car does not really fit them, the club does not fit them, or ... Same thing goes for say they want a 1931 Auburn and get a 1929 Auburn - the driveability of the cars is like night and day.  The first time I had the 35 Auburn out we had a garage sale of all the pre-war stuff, excepting the 41 Cadillac hung around a few more years - the driveability is fantastic, nice size, and ... - checks my boxes.   And, I seem to have Packards pass through - they find me and dad grumbles.  I do like 1929-32 cars - they just tend to be a little more poky than I like - but will find another that suits me.   It unfortunately takes going through a lot of cars to figure this all out - some people are lucky and get "it" on day one and others are perhaps not as lucky early in the game (but hopefully they figure it out better late than never).  Moral:  If it is not right for you then set it free and get what is right for you !!!

 

You should really try driving one. A world of difference between a 3000 and a 2500 M in the handling dept. The 3000 has more torque. The TVR has a chassis just as at home on the track as the street.

The hot V6's were not generally available in North America because of emissions.

The TR6 drivetrain in a 2500 Vixen or 2500 M is sort of lame in the power dept. compared to the U.K. market cars. That's why many 2500's are converted to 5000's . But that takes you from too little power to too much for 

day in day out use. The UK , V6 cars are the sweet spot, but they use a forbidden by the EPA engine.  The 1980's  Toyota Supra engine and gearbox are becoming popular with TVR drivers.  More power than the TR lump,

no additional weight , and all the power you really need short of a hill climb car.

 No offense but I find Big Healey's a bit lacking in the chassis dept. Great looking cars, but their early 1950's engineering is just a bit too primitive for my driving. They are also very expensive for my budget.

Unfortunately TVR's have become very rare in my area. The early cars have almost all been exported to Europe , with many of the M era cars one by one going as well. They were way cheaper around here than in

Europe, mid 1980's onward. And off they went , never to return.  The Vancouver area had a reasonably active dealer and there were quite a few locally when I was a teenager. But no more.

Bringing one in from the U.S. doesn't work anymore due to the exchange.

 

Greg

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[padgett]

Was just ruminating a bit on the lives of cars. Don't think WW1 took many but am sure the metal/rubber drives of WWII plus gas rationing drove many period cars to the scrappers. After War2 we had boom times and the major destroyer of cars were road salt and bad drivers. Add in near disposable prices and the improvements that came every year in the 50s and 60s and most old cars sat on the back of the lot and almost any problem would move them to the recycling center. Also in 1970 a car with 100k miles was considered "done". ( I used to look for junk 327s in the yards because with 100k miles the cranks were nicely polished and before angle ports the double humpers with 2.02 intakes were worth more than the car they were in.

 

70s and 80s were pretty much the doldrums and suddenly earlier cars (tri-fives) were popular. Then in the mid-90s all of a sudden horsepower was back and was a whole new ballgame. However the real killer for many cars was the 2009 "Cash for Clunkers" program which mandated destroying the block so the engine could not be reused. Couple with disintegrating plastic and many cars just disappeared.

 

So today we have a whole new group who want an old body on a modern chassis to further dilute the hobby. And too many hobbyists today feel their jobs threatened so are reluctant to take on more dept.

 

Other factors ?

[1912Staver]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

 

Having driven these cars.........with 5-8 grand of modifications you could drive all day at 55mph. I would add front brakes..........about 3k all in using a later Pierce axel. Trust me, the car is free at asking price. That is a BIG BOY toy from the mid 20's and can be made into a fantastic higher speed driver with little effort. A fine car at 45mph all day long, and it will pull any hill in direct that you can find. It's a better investment than ANY new car you can buy on a percentage basis over five years.

 

That later Pierce front axle sounds like a must, even more so with the hi - speed modifications you mention. How much do these steam rollers weigh ? A grand automobile ! It reminds me of a Ghost or Phantom 1 with closed bodywork.  And way better value for money than any of the large model RR's.

 

Greg

 

[1912Staver]

52 minutes ago, padgett said:

Was just ruminating a bit on the lives of cars. Don't think WW1 took many but am sure the metal/rubber drives of WWII plus gas rationing drove many period cars to the scrappers. After War2 we had boom times and the major destroyer of cars were road salt and bad drivers. Add in near disposable prices and the improvements that came every year in the 50s and 60s and most old cars sat on the back of the lot and almost any problem would move them to the recycling center. Also in 1970 a car with 100k miles was considered "done". ( I used to look for junk 327s in the yards because with 100k miles the cranks were nicely polished and before angle ports the double humpers with 2.02 intakes were worth more than the car they were in.

 

70s and 80s were pretty much the doldrums and suddenly earlier cars (tri-fives) were popular. Then in the mid-90s all of a sudden horsepower was back and was a whole new ballgame. However the real killer for many cars was the 2009 "Cash for Clunkers" program which mandated destroying the block so the engine could not be reused. Couple with disintegrating plastic and many cars just disappeared.

 

So today we have a whole new group who want an old body on a modern chassis to further dilute the hobby. And too many hobbyists today feel their jobs threatened so are reluctant to take on more dept.

 

Other factors ?

 

Between WW 1 and the depression, huge numbers of cars were scrapped. Even before WW 1 a car had a very short life. Poor motor oils, no filtration, rapidly advancing technology . In the teens cars were produced in the millions, other

than Model T's very few remain.

 

Greg

[1935Packard]

9 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

 

Between WW 1 and the depression, huge numbers of cars were scrapped. Even before WW 1 a car had a very short life. Poor motor oils, no filtration, rapidly advancing technology . In the teens cars were produced in the millions, other

than Model T's very few remain.

 

Greg

 

I alway find it interesting that in pictures of streets pre-WW2, so many of the cars were produced the year the picture was taken.   If it's a 1940 photo of a busy street, chances are there are a bunch of 1940 cars in it.  I gather that cars lasted such a short window that most of the cars on the street were almost new (by today's standards, at least).

[alsancle]

I think we've established those 33 Pierce Arrow's from the 1920s bring no money.   This car is the twin,  just as nice, but a touring car and brought 60k all in from RM a few years ago.

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/sj16/motor-city/lots/r138-1924-pierce-arrow-model-33-seven-passenger-touring/335283

 

[F&J]

26 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

I alway find it interesting that in pictures of streets pre-WW2, so many of the cars were produced the year the picture was taken.   If it's a 1940 photo of a busy street, chances are there are a bunch of 1940 cars in it.  I gather that cars lasted such a short window that most of the cars on the street were almost new (by today's standards, at least).

There are some driving videos on YT taken in Los Angeles worth viewing.

 

Here is a great pic from the AACA junkyard forum, listed as 1941, note there are many mid 30s but nothing from teens and very few 20s...all apparently were crushed prior to this pic.

Look right above the Graham sign, a 35/36 Ford parked with door open, and it's owner taking parts off of a same car to the right.

 

I have an old reprint of a 1931 Chiltons Multi Guide book, and it gives precise year by year amount totals of cars scrapped so far...and amazing number totals are shown. 

 

..as the decades have rolled by, I sometimes am amazed that we as hobbyists are unknowingly? very fortunate that so many cars of all sales price ranges have somehow survived.  I think we might be taking these many survivors for granted.

[8E45E]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2020 at 11:37 AM, 1912Staver said:

I bought them for me, not resale.

I'd like to think most here bought them to have fun with and enjoy; not a rolling investment portfolio.

 

Craig

[1935Packard]

37 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I think we've established those 33 Pierce Arrow's from the 1920s bring no money.   This car is the twin,  just as nice, but a touring car and brought 60k all in from RM a few years ago.

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/sj16/motor-city/lots/r138-1924-pierce-arrow-model-33-seven-passenger-touring/335283

 

 

 

That one looks like an older resto to me, not as nice.  This may be a better comparison, a closed model that went for $107K 3 years ago. 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23977/lot/6/

 

 

[alsancle]

21 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

That one looks like an older resto to me, not as nice.  This may be a better comparison, a closed model that went for $107K 3 years ago. 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23977/lot/6/

 

 

ouch.

[Matt Harwood]

40 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

That one looks like an older resto to me, not as nice.  This may be a better comparison, a closed model that went for $107K 3 years ago. 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23977/lot/6/

 

 

 

I believe that gray Pierce is currently owned by a fellow board member.

[padgett]

Wasn't a Pierce the car that Wayne was extolling the virtues of (and the camera cut away just as the death wobble started ) ?

[edinmass]

It's BIG and heavy. Best guess...........5300lbs. These LARGE series cars were much more expensive than the standard Pierce............one of the most under rated cars on the planet.........comparable to a Springfield Ghost................with a bit of effort and time, that car would be an absolutely FANTASTIC tour car............100 points..........and a great driver. Sadly, it will probably end up in a museum parked. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

14 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Unfortunately TVR's have become very rare in my area.

Here too - you use to see a good 25 TVR out at any local British meet up until perhaps 2000, then slowly dropping to point where now perhaps only 8 or so in the Cincinnati area and lucky to get 2 or 3 out to a British meet (but same goes with everything British, even though this area is still dense with sports cars (and always has been) than probably other major cities of its size.

[John_Mereness]

13 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

 

That later Pierce front axle sounds like a must, even more so with the hi - speed modifications you mention. How much do these steam rollers weigh ? A grand automobile ! It reminds me of a Ghost or Phantom 1 with closed bodywork.  And way better value for money than any of the large model RR's.

 

Greg

 

4 wheel brakes are not a must, but just very nice - properly done two wheel brakes work just fine, the only problem is most are not properly done and when done properly they do not stay done for too long if touring regularly.   

[Grimy]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

4 wheel brakes are not a must, but just very nice - properly done two wheel brakes work just fine, the only problem is most are not properly done and when done properly they do not stay done for too long if touring regularly.   

2-wheel brakes make me a much better defensive driver 🙂 .  The key is to adjust on a 2,000-mile schedule, and (for internal + external brakes) to use both together frequently to keep the drums from warping or egging out.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Grimy
added a word for clarity (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

2 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

 

That one looks like an older resto to me, not as nice.  This may be a better comparison, a closed model that went for $107K 3 years ago. 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23977/lot/6/

 

 

 

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

ouch.

I had the same thought regarding "ouch" - that the Grey Pierce Arrow https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23977/lot/6/ looks perfectly capable of high point awards and if well sorted still allows you a prize, but my best guess is that the Maroon car is equally capable https://hymanltd.com/vehicles/6723-1923-pierce-arrow-33-vestibule-sedan/ (perhaps the difference between 100 point cars and over the top 100 point cars).  Had that same nicked by the barber feeling with this Mercedes too https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25101/lot/32/ (though it had the quality of restoration that was far below either of these Pierce Arrows).  That said, the Maroon Pierce Arrow probably speaks for Market realistically for a large 20's sedan from the boxcar school of design. 

[1912Staver]

I find the prices on top model MB's very high. SSK's and the like excepted. But it a segment of the market that is so far beyond my means that I barely even pay attention to it for the last couple of decades. Once things like 1920's 3 Lit. Bentley's went above $75,000 I knew there

would never be one of the landmark sporting cars of the 1920's in my garage. Same with a pre - GM Vauxhall, or a 1917 - the end of the 4 Cyl cars { KLDH } Stutz. Prices have become so high since the 1980's that I can't even afford to dream about them anymore.

 

Greg

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[padgett]

Just think: with two wheel brakes you do not need a handbrake to do a handbrake turn (assuming they work).

[alsancle]

32 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

 

I had the same thought regarding "ouch" - that the Grey Pierce Arrow https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23977/lot/6/ looks perfectly capable of high point awards and if well sorted still allows you a prize, but my best guess is that the Maroon car is equally capable https://hymanltd.com/vehicles/6723-1923-pierce-arrow-33-vestibule-sedan/ (perhaps the difference between 100 point cars and over the top 100 point cars).  Had that same nicked by the barber feeling with this Mercedes too https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25101/lot/32/ (though it had the quality of restoration that was far below either of these Pierce Arrows).  That said, the Maroon Pierce Arrow probably speaks for Market realistically for a large 20's sedan from the boxcar school of design. 

 

The Mercedes was another indication of the softness and having a recent public sale for much more definitely doesn't give you confidence.   But there are a number of things about that car that would limit the market.    The RHD and the non-sindelfingen body basically eliminates the Germans and limits the American market.

 

[John_Mereness]

Somewhere back in this is probably my - "do not hold your breath for the bottom to fall out of the market on certain things - they have been expensive since day one and will continue to be expensive" and while they may decline it is not going to be anything significant - ex.  you are fine with high horsepower brass cars, certain open/convertible nickle and 20's cars, CCCA open/convertible cars (though such as 41 Cadillac's and 40-48 Lincoln Continentals seem dismal in the big scheme of things via too high a survival rate) + sidenote - strong Clubs like Auburn Cord Duesenberg Club helps those marques, 40-70's convertibles, certain Muscle Cars, certain Sports Cars & Exotic Cars, certain reasonably priced cars like Model A's, V-8's and under 20K nicely restored or super nice original/well sorted/driveable open/convertible cars, over the top restorations meant to seriously win major shows/Concours events (which you stand to loose money on restoration, but they sell for surprisingly high money nevertheless), incredibly nice condition original cars, some cult stuff, certain trucks, certain motorcycles, and ...

 

I suspect the market will be rough on stuff that cannot get out of its own way, stuff that is just broken, project cars needing total or extensive restoration, welded up former junk, poorly restored stuff, sedans from the boxcar school of design, all the generic closed sedan stuff of any age, and such as opera coupes/coaches/business coupes, plus a separation of men from boys via bad color choices, base models equipped with zippo, and I am sure I am overlooking something or many somethings.

 

In economics - if you have uncertainty as to value matched to increasing/inflation related costs to restore, then ....

 

So, buy what you truly truly think you will love (and not in love then set it free) and have some fun. 

[John_Mereness]

I felt really bad last week telling a fellow with the nicest of 40's Lincoln Continental Convertible that his car was still older restored needing a pick-me-up and as a result unfortunately had a finite price that they would not like.  I am not going to sugar coat it to tell them something they want to hear that is just not true - the market is what it is and nothing I can do about it.  What is a shame is that they really are lovely cars, killer styling, top goes down, highway driveable, and ...   they just have a high survival rate and a club that is nice, though not what I consider truly active and cheer-leading. 

[Fossil]

I would love to spend a day strolling through there. Can you imagine driving down a back road and coming over a hill to find this! Talk about a field of dreams.

 

[John_Mereness]

9 minutes ago, Fossil said:

I would love to spend a day strolling through there. Can you imagine driving down a back road and coming over a hill to find this! Talk about a field of dreams.

 

In the 70's, there was a junk yard like this just outside Dayton - the cars were probably there since 30's to 60's so they were all pretty bad, but from about 1974-1980 dad and I would make a yearly trip and just have fun walking through.  What was fun too was the "office" and garage that was stacked with all the shiny stuff they took off when the car came in.  I think we bought a dome light switch from a 31 Cadillac - it was really the near only decent part left on the car, though I am sure today that car would get another 3 or 4  finished and back on the road.  Dad talks though about the junk yard in Dayton in 1950's that got all the good stuff (Inky's or something like that).

Edited July 28, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

Somewhere back in this is probably my - "do not hold your breath for the bottom to fall out of the market on certain things - they have been expensive since day one and will continue to be expensive" and while they may decline it is not going to be anything significant - ex.  you are fine with high horsepower brass cars, certain open/convertible nickle and 20's cars, CCCA open/convertible cars (though such as 41 Cadillac's and 40-48 Lincoln Continentals seem dismal in the big scheme of things via too high a survival rate) + sidenote - strong Clubs like Auburn Cord Duesenberg Club helps those marques, 40-70's convertibles, certain Muscle Cars, certain Sports Cars & Exotic Cars, certain reasonably priced cars like Model A's, V-8's and under 20K nicely restored or super nice original/well sorted/driveable open/convertible cars, over the top restorations meant to seriously win major shows/Concours events (which you stand to loose money on restoration, but they sell for surprisingly high money nevertheless), incredibly nice condition original cars, some cult stuff, certain trucks, certain motorcycles, and ...

 

I suspect the market will be rough on stuff that cannot get out of its own way, stuff that is just broken, project cars needing total or extensive restoration, welded up former junk, poorly restored stuff, sedans from the boxcar school of design, all the generic closed sedan stuff of any age, and such as opera coupes/coaches/business coupes, plus a separation of men from boys via bad color choices, base models equipped with zippo, and I am sure I am overlooking something or many somethings.

 

In economics - if you have uncertainty as to value matched to increasing/inflation related costs to restore, then ....

 

So, buy what you truly truly think you will love (and not in love then set it free) and have some fun. 

 

I am not looking for the bottom to fall out.  But the cars I liked in the late 1980's / early 1990's and could almost afford have in many cases gone up 300% - 500% and more in todays market. Far, far outpacing my income. 

I earned about $20.00 / Hr. as a mechanic in the late 1980's , but when I retired I sure wasn't making $100 + / Hr.  What happened to the income vs vintage car price ratio over the last 30 years ?

Will there ever be any hope ? I am not talking SJ's and Packard 12 's here , just the upper middle class cars that my almost upper middle class income used to be in contention at leas for. These days can only the

wealthy afford upper middle class cars ? Obviously only the Uber wealthy can afford the top 2 % cars , but where did the middle ground go ?

 

Greg

Edited July 28, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

3 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

 

I am not looking for the bottom to fall out.  But the cars I liked in the late 1980's / early 1990's and could almost afford have in many cases gone up 300% - 500% and more in todays market. Far, far outpacing my income. 

Will there ever be any hope ? I am not talking SJ's and Packard 12 's here , just the upper middle class cars that my almost upper middle class income used to bein contention at leas for. These days can only the

wealthy afford upper middle class cars ? Obviously only the Uber wealthy can afford the top 2 % cars , but where did the middle ground go ?

 

Greg

Just depends on what you are looking for.  

 

What are you looking for ?  

 

I think there a lot of interest in cars people saw as kids - why the 80's and 90's stuff (Japanese, German, & Italian sports cars in particular) is now shooting up in value, but that does not mean there are no younger people out of the Brass era tours (actually it is a pretty vibrant group of young people - you just may not see it as they generally tour verses show and more so some areas of the United States or even other countries being more vibrant than others).  Sidenote: Values tend to be set by rarity, though with plenty of exceptions.   Why do you not see many early close/sedan brass era cars - well, 100 plus years takes a toll (so we have rarity) matched to most do not fit height wise through a standard garage door - the impracticality far overshadows rare.  Convertibles really always have been rare no matter what they are.  Big horsepower fast stuff has also always been rare.  Sports cars always have been rare.  Muscle stuff have always been rare too. And ....

[1912Staver]

Well, say the 3 litre Bentley I mentioned previously. I used to see them every now and then in the $60,000 - $70,000 range. Now $350,000 and up

HK 500 Facels  Always under $10,000 or I wouldn't have been looking. Now $150,000 and up. Same with DB4 Astons, Under $10 G's / vs $250,000

I very nearly bought a down at the heals DBS Vantage for $3500.00 in about 1982. What would one cost today?

Maser 3500's and so many more.

Don't get me wrong, I realize a big part of the problem is my junk status $ Cdn. Along with being retired in a very high cost of living part of North America.

But it still seems there was a big disconnect between vintage car prices and general rise of incomes over the last 3 - 4 decades.

 I also realize that as a tail end baby boomer there is a demographic disadvantage at work. The mainstream boomers ; say a decade or so older than me

generally did a lot better than those of us graduating HS in the mid 1970's. Got into the job market with far less years spent in post sec ed. in many cases.

Climbed the career ladder faster, times were booming for their early career vs my brink of the 1980's recession entry to my career { 5 years after HS grad. at time of  Post sec grad }

And got into the real estate market faster / at a fraction of what I had to pay.

I have some cars I am very happy with, but never landed what I would consider a really "great " car.

All my cars ; even the good ones, were project status when I bought them. I just couldn't afford them any other way.

Some day It would be nice to actually drive a vintage car purchase home rather than winch it up on my trailer.

 

Greg

 

And so on.

Edited July 28, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[padgett]

True except for a 4 year hiatus including time in SEA I guess you missed. Dunno what a "great" car is but never had any trouble finding what I wanted which was usually produced in low volumes. Are a few who never contacted again after I told them what the car was worth to me. One is apparently still for sale. Lately have been more concerned about cosmetics than electrical/mechanical issues.

 

That said this century I only bought one "project car" and only because it was cosmetically nice, less than a large, complete, had a stick shift,  I had another but automagic, and had an open garage space. Is waiting for cooler weather, fuel pump packed up since sitting, was running when brought it in.

[John_Mereness]

Hin

2 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Well, say the 3 litre Bentley I mentioned previously. I used to see them every now and then in the $60,000 - $70,000 range. Now $350,000 and up

HK 500 Facels  Always under $10,000 or I wouldn't have been looking. Now $150,000 and up. Same with DB4 Astons, Under $10 G's / vs $250,000

Maser 3500's and so many more.

Hindsight is a great thing:

Yes, I passed up a 3 litre Bentley touring for 100K, but I did not have 100K at the time, though it was still an expensive car at 100K when on open market they were at 120K.  

Yes, I passed up an outstanding 8 Litre for 250K when they were going for 300K.

Dad bought the first 1931 Cadillac for 5K in 1975 (we looked at a 30 Packard 740 the same week and a 34 Cadillac V-12 the week prior - both were running decent cars cosmetics and less money) and we did a 20K restoration on it to have everyone screamed we were crazy - and sold it for 45K a few year later and today it is probably worth the same money).

I bought my 1941 Cadillac in 1979, for 5K and was told I was out of my mind as that was only a 3K car.

I walked past an Aston Martin DB2/4 Coupe in probably 2000 for 20K - it did not have a speck of corrosion on it and actually ran nicely though it seeped out the weep holes.

I bought my 1965 Maserati for 8K and sold it for 20K.

In perhaps 2006, I sent dad out to buy a Facel for 20K and he came back empty handed as he thought it was only worth 18K and fellow would not negotiate.

The first car dad ever went to look at was in 1966 or so and was a 1929 Stearns Knight Landaulette and they wanted 5K for it and everyone said crazy money (but 5K was the cost of a new car too and the comparable cars for that money were also outstanding).

In 2000, I passed up a RR PI Riviera for 45K and it changed hands like 3 more times that year with no one even washing it to have the last sale at like 165K

Tuckers were 45K for the 15 years we were Franklin Club members.

And, the list goes on and on and on.

 

My point is that when a what was expensive when new car comes up for sale or a rare car even for that matter in X year for X dollars, that $ is/was still in the scheme of things "a lot of money." 

 

 

 

[John_Mereness]

17 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

 

Between WW 1 and the depression, huge numbers of cars were scrapped. Even before WW 1 a car had a very short life. Poor motor oils, no filtration, rapidly advancing technology . In the teens cars were produced in the millions, other

than Model T's very few remain.

 

Greg

When I had the 1955 Buick Roadmaster Riviera Hardtop with Factory A/C everyone commented "rare as hen teeth" and probably are not a dozen Roadmaster Rivieras survive with A/C, plus probably not 100 total left of a 28K something Roadmaster Rivieras built.  Also there were comments like 85% were off the road in the first 8 years.  

 

My sister was in the car with me yesterday and she made two comments as to cars - we saw a Nissan Cube and she said you never see any on road anymore and also saw a Honda Element and she made same comment. 

[1912Staver]

48 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Hin

Hindsight is a great thing:

Yes, I passed up a 3 litre Bentley touring for 100K, but I did not have 100K at the time, though it was still an expensive car at 100K when on open market they were at 120K.  

Yes, I passed up an outstanding 8 Litre for 250K when they were going for 300K.

Dad bought the first 1931 Cadillac for 5K in 1975 (we looked at a 30 Packard 740 the same week and a 34 Cadillac V-12 the week prior - both were running decent cars cosmetics and less money) and we did a 20K restoration on it to have everyone screamed we were crazy - and sold it for 45K a few year later and today it is probably worth the same money).

I bought my 1941 Cadillac in 1979, for 5K and was told I was out of my mind as that was only a 3K car.

I walked past an Aston Martin DB2/4 Coupe in probably 2000 for 20K - it did not have a speck of corrosion on it and actually ran nicely though it seeped out the weep holes.

I bought my 1965 Maserati for 8K and sold it for 20K.

In perhaps 2006, I sent dad out to buy a Facel for 20K and he came back empty handed as he thought it was only worth 18K and fellow would not negotiate.

The first car dad ever went to look at was in 1966 or so and was a 1929 Stearns Knight Landaulette and they wanted 5K for it and everyone said crazy money (but 5K was the cost of a new car too and the comparable cars for that money were also outstanding).

In 2000, I passed up a RR PI Riviera for 45K and it changed hands like 3 more times that year with no one even washing it to have the last sale at like 165K

Tuckers were 45K for the 15 years we were Franklin Club members.

And, the list goes on and on and on.

 

My point is that when a what was expensive when new car comes up for sale or a rare car even for that matter in X year for X dollars, that $ is/was still in the scheme of things "a lot of money." 

 

 

 

 

Agreed, it just seems odd that cars I could " nearly " afford as little more than a HS grad I cannot even touch as a end of career, reasonably well paid transport industry Tech / Engineering officer. Of course the Bentley at $70,000 was well beyond what I could afford in my early 20's,

But all the others were at least 90% affordable. My basic point is that very few incomes have kept pace with the price increase / inflation of these sort of cars.

 

I am happy enough with my TVR, Lola T492 and basket case MK 1 Lotus Cortina, not to mention the Staver , Brass Car big pile of parts. And my bought in 1976 , MGA purchased with Saturday job HS money. I had saved up.

But it sure would have been nice to have bagged a 65 Maserati  along the way like you were able to do. I used to work on the 6 cyl cars a fair bit, they were quite reasonably priced at the time.  3500 coupes, Minstral's, even the odd Sebring.

 

Those days seem to be gone forever.

 

Greg

[John_Mereness]

1926 Pierce Arrow Model 80

Click photo to enlarge

1926 Pierce-Arrow Model 80 4-door Sedan. This car started out as a rust free, original paint car with only 46,749 miles

It was painstakingly, professionally restored by the previous owner over the course of 8 years

It runs and drives beautifully and everything works

It is mechanically 100% and cosmetically spectacular with show quality paint

The engine was professionally rebuilt to a high standard and is quiet and smooth

The seats and door panels are original and should be redone to match the quality of the rest of this outstanding car

offered at $26,500

Contact: Click to Email  Joel Rippa

   Essex Jct, VT,

(802) 233-3214

 

[1912Staver]

That looks like very good value for money.

 

Greg

[1912Staver]

2 hours ago, padgett said:

True except for a 4 year hiatus including time in SEA I guess you missed. Dunno what a "great" car is but never had any trouble finding what I wanted which was usually produced in low volumes. Are a few who never contacted again after I told them what the car was worth to me. One is apparently still for sale. Lately have been more concerned about cosmetics than electrical/mechanical issues.

 

That said this century I only bought one "project car" and only because it was cosmetically nice, less than a large, complete, had a stick shift,  I had another but automagic, and had an open garage space. Is waiting for cooler weather, fuel pump packed up since sitting, was running when brought it in.

 

 

Padgett, there is something to be said for your approach.  Buy them when they are still used cars at the bottom of the depreciation cycle.  But I really can't think of a car built in the last  30 years that I even want to drive let alone own.  My Hyundai daily driver is a tool not a collector car.

I am sure there must be something I could pick up at an affordable price , but nothing is coming to mind. Must be the Summer heat. Gas is very expensive here compared to 99% of North America so that crosses off about all of the newer V8 cars, Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, Hemi etc. 

The cops locally have their sights on the hot imports , Skylines, Sylvia's, RX7 twin turbo's, BRZ 's  Nissan twin turbo's so I would rather not tempt fate on big fines / license problems .What's left ? Never been a Benz guy, probably never will be.  Lots on the market but very little for a paleoboomer 

who likes sports cars..

 

Greg

Edited July 28, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[padgett]

And then there is location. Florida has always had a lot of interesting cars, mostly european. Cars also depreciate fast here & are lots of estate sales.. Take the XK-150s I took to college. Five years from new it was a $1500 used car mainly because the E-type pushed all the XKs down. Still needed to strain to purchase (survived on 15c McDs for months when I needed a clutch) but was in my Jag phase.

 

Florida is also a very low cost of living area particularly when in the same house for 30+ years. Also find am spending very little now. Toys have always been on a cash basis. That said I find quite a few interesting cars from the last 30 years, many depreciated out. Do prefer 2-seaters.

[39BuickEight]

There is no better place to buy a used late model Cadillac, Lincoln, or Buick, than Florida.  

[1912Staver]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

And then there is location. Florida has always had a lot of interesting cars, mostly european. Cars also depreciate fast here & are lots of estate sales.. Take the XK-150s I took to college. Five years from new it was a $1500 used car mainly because the E-type pushed all the XKs down. Still needed to strain to purchase (survived on 15c McDs for months when I needed a clutch) but was in my Jag phase.

 

Florida is also a very low cost of living area particularly when in the same house for 30+ years. Also find am spending very little now. Toys have always been on a cash basis. That said I find quite a few interesting cars from the last 30 years, many depreciated out. Do prefer 2-seaters.

 

Generally not the case in Canada.  Things like 10 year old Scion FR-S and Subaru BRZ coupes  are still selling for about 60% - 80 % of what they sold for new. Honda S2000's at least 1/2 of new despite a decade old and usually lots of miles. FR - S is one of the few newer cars I actually like, perhaps when they are 20 years old I may be able to afford them. I only paid attention from about 1970 onward

but XK series cars were cheap around here as well. But the local cars were serious rust buckets by that time. Even early E Types were fairly cheap in the early 70's , but once again serious tin worm cars.

 Cost of living here is  " world class " to say the least. $ 6.00 / gallon for milk, $5.00 for a loaf of bread. $2500 / month Apt rent.1 BR. Million $ entry level home price. And wages that are nothing at all to write home about.

 

Greg

Edited July 29, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Buick35]

11 hours ago, padgett said:

And then there is location. Florida has always had a lot of interesting cars, mostly european. Cars also depreciate fast here & are lots of estate sales.. Take the XK-150s I took to college. Five years from new it was a $1500 used car mainly because the E-type pushed all the XKs down. Still needed to strain to purchase (survived on 15c McDs for months when I needed a clutch) but was in my Jag phase.

 

Florida is also a very low cost of living area particularly when in the same house for 30+ years. Also find am spending very little now. Toys have always been on a cash basis. That said I find quite a few interesting cars from the last 30 years, many depreciated out. Do prefer 2-seaters.

 

[Buick35]

Padgett,Just thought I'd ask(I know you've heard that before)but since you like two seater British cars,I have a real nice,not perfect,74 chromed bumper MGB that I would like to trade for something else of around the same year or older. My wife says it's to hard for her to get in and out of. Old car or truck,foreign or domestic.I paid $6500 for it about five years ago.I can send pictures.White,black top and interior,original type radio,no overdrive.Thanks,Greg.Stay healthy and I hope the hurricanes stay away from us. I'm closer to the east coast,around Titusville.or if you know of someone.

[Restorer32]

In about 1970 we turned down a Duesenberg Limo for $10,000.  Dad thought it was way too much to pay for an antique car.