edinmass Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Looks off to me, time to index the crank and cam. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, edinmass said: Looks off to me, time to index the crank and cam. Yes, agreed. But index them to each other or to some third arbitrary point? The books make no mention of how valve timing is indexed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 I know the Zephyr is a totally different engine, but on that one you just line the marks up. You should have a similar diagram for your engine. Looks to me you are off by 2 sprocket teeth which is a lot. Trying to find a diagram for your engine and not successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 I have a call in to my friend Gary, he'll know for certain. Also E-mailed Ray Theriault, who is the Lincoln Club expert on these cars. There's an answer forthcoming, just not tonight. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB-Buff Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) Matt my guess is those two marks have to line up at one point in time obviously it’s a 2 to 1 ratio so depending on the stroke they’re either lined up or 180° from each other. You are two teeth off in my opinion and it’s two teeth retarded which would make the engine run very high speed but two teeth is a lot. When you advanced the cam gives you low end and retard gives your top end. But usually only do that by a few degrees you’re like 10° or 12. So Plan on lining those two marks up, I don’t think you’ll get any information that tells you different. I have never ever had an engine with the marks did not line up to one another at one point. Lynn. I want to add that when those two marks are lined up number one piston will be at the top. It could be at the top of the exhaust stroke or it could be at the top of the compression stroke. It doesn’t make any difference but it will be at top dead center on one of those two cycles Edited September 21, 2021 by AB-Buff (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 Just for grins, I rotated it a turn to put the crank sprocket at the 12 o'clock position and they're still off by the same amount, so regardless of where they're indexed, it's off by about two teeth. I'll get confirmation from my sources, but it seems that lining them up aimed at each other should get me correct valve timing and hopefully a better running engine that doesn't cook itself. I hope this is one of those times when the obvious fix does actually fix the problem. Too often I have a problem and find the obvious cause, only to have it not actually be the cause. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smartin Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Two teeth is huge...and could very well make sure engine run like a different animal. Hopefully that's it and you can wrap up this chapter. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 At home, I broke out my giant National Service Manual and found the answer under "Camshaft Setting." 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-mman Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 While we are waiting on the correct information about this K engine I thought I would show you a Ford Y-block (292-312) The crank and cam marks are off to the side 12 teeth apart.. . . So the IS at least one engine that doesnt lineup, and it is a Ford. . . . . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB-Buff Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 When I said earlier I was off by about 12-14°. That’s cam angle. It actually looks like more like 20° cam angle which would be about 40° crank angle or more which is huge, when you fix that you’re gonna love that motor. By the way that would make it run hot 🔥 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB-Buff Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, m-mman said: While we are waiting on the correct information about this K engine I thought I would show you a Ford Y-block (292-312) The crank and cam marks are off to the side 12 teeth apart.. . . So the IS at least one engine that doesnt lineup, and it is a Ford. . . . . That’s probably the only engine known to mankind that does that. Every other one lines up the marks. Ford did some weird crap. Fortunately he didn’t have time to screw this Lincoln up. As for the later ones I don’t know. So Matt forget you ever saw this one. You will line those two marks up like every other normal engine and you’ll be a happy camper. Edited September 22, 2021 by AB-Buff (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prewarnut Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 I have tended to think that the engine hasn't sounded as smooth as it could be and hope that perhaps retiming will help. Will hope. With regards to the water flow. I'm not an expert but your set-up (without doing the math but empirically thinking about it) means you are raising two columns of water about 20 inches each (you tell us but based on the pipe elbow height above water height in bucket). I don't know if this is the real condition with radiator installed but probably not. Probably there is minimal or only a nominal water column of a 5 inches or less. So as someone here alluded normally the pump is only "circulating" as Archimedes prinicple is providing equal pressure up/down in radiator and engine at rest - not running or when temperature/pressure variables are introduced. Still the addition of a water column in your set-up subtracts from the working efficiency the pump can deliver in this closed system. For kicks can you keep the same bucket set-up and lower the output pipes to reduce the water column? If this works at idle it would be great to see here and now before more assembly/disassembly is done. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 Pump pressure output is proportional to the Square of the rotational speed. So the pressure it puts out at 2,000 rpm is 4 times the pressure at 1,000 rpm. So I'm just saying you expect very low pressure output at low rpm. Maybe what you experience is to be expected, not much pressure at idle. https://www.michael-smith-engineers.co.uk/resources/useful-info/centrifugal-pumps 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB-Buff Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 The more I think about this I am blown away that that motor even ran. I’ve heard of guys starting it up one tooth off and having all kinds of issues but never as far as two. You’re on the road to success now young man 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95Cardinal Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 Matt, your tenacity is paying off. Full speed ahead; I can't wait to see the video of that V12 running well and running cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 3 hours ago, m-mman said: While we are waiting on the correct information about this K engine I thought I would show you a Ford Y-block (292-312) The crank and cam marks are off to the side 12 teeth apart.. . . So the IS at least one engine that doesnt lineup, and it is a Ford. . . . . Buick Straight Eight times that way. Ben 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 On 8/30/2021 at 5:45 AM, edinmass said: Simple logic applies.......what now is different from when the car was running last year..........block is cleaner than it has been since 1937. Pump is rebuilt like new. hoses and connections are good. That ONLY leaves heat exchange issue(radiator) or ignition or valve timing. It can't be anything else. The core is new and has never been driven or used till the test.........it's probably the problem. Ignition or valve timing are a possibility.....but I would place my bets on flow issue through the core..........I'm certain Matt is tired and aggravated with the car......but it's close now. Easiest test is the radiator flow.......it WILL give an answer on heat exchange, a definitiave answer.........if it checks out it leaves valves and ignition. The most important thing we are seeing........I had called Matt a while back to talk him into running the engine BEFORE it was in the car....and now..........its fifty times easier to deal with. Some day I will do a thread on a Pierce V-12 that ran almost perfectly on a stand for 12 hours.......we couldn't get a skip out of it. We figured it out. Fortunatly it was an easy repair on the stand. See above..........😎 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 3 hours ago, AB-Buff said: That’s probably the only engine known to mankind that does that. Every other one lines up the marks. Ford did some weird crap. Fortunately he didn’t have time to screw this Lincoln up. As for the later ones I don’t know. So Matt forget you ever saw this one. You will line those two marks up like every other normal engine and you’ll be a happy camper. Buick’s in their Straight Eight engines (I am familiar with 1947 - 53) had special marked chain links that got lined up with the marks on the sprockets. They were about 20 teeth apart. If you lined up the marks like in a Chevy, the car ran very poorly if at all.p 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 (edited) Two teeth can definitely explain it. It is probably fixed. However, if it were me there is not a chance in hell I would put that back together, let alone put it back in the car, without absolutely establishing a correct TDC mark, and absolutely establishing that valve overlap occurs at TDC, 360 flywheel degrees from firing, with less error than one tooth could account for. This is the third time I have said so in this thread, so I'll stop harping now. Edited September 22, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history) 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmsue Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 A lot of gears in old Willys engines do not have any marks. The Willys manual (and the way I was taught) says to put the piston on TDC of exhaust stroke and make sure the both intake and exhaust valves are closed. This method has never failed me. Now when you forget and try to time with the piston on TDC compression..........that's another story. Hang in there.......you're just about in the end zone. Good Luck, Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 Hoping the trend now is one fix enhances the other. If timing correction reduces heat challenges, coolant flow becomes less of an overall concern. But will now be optimal which is great for long term. Misc. Leaks, retourque everything and maybe rear main might be all that remains. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tate Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 Get the gear switched around and get it running, I’m here just waiting for the update haha 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfloro Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 Hi Matt, I would like to know if the valve timing was advanced or retarded (others might also). If advanced, I wonder if incompletely combusted fuel was pushed into the exhaust manifolds early. This might explain the intense heat and red glow. It was scary to see that. As others have expressed. I feel very confident that correcting the valve timing is going to solve multiple issues. Keep the faith...! Paul 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 22, 2021 Author Share Posted September 22, 2021 (edited) Once again I have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. I know what I need to do to fix the timing, but I don't have an easy way of doing it. This is apparently a brand new timing chain and there's zero slop in it. The automatic adjuster is retracted as far as it will go. That means I can't loosen it enough to slip the chain onto different teeth. There's nowhere for the tensioner to go to add slack to the timing chain. The chain won't slide off or give me enough clearance to slip it onto another tooth. The only way to adjust the timing is to remove the generator sprocket, which also involves removing the generator drive, the generator, the water pump, the fuel pump, and the oil lines. Who knows if I'll be able to get it back together given how tight the timing chain is now (it somehow got tighter? How the hell did that happen?)? There's going to be major disassembly just to get some slack in the chain. Easily a long weekend of work, maybe more. I just don't think I'm up to it. I've done all these jobs ten times already. I'm sick of making new gaskets for the goddamned water pump, I'm sick of fighting to get bolts into blind holes, I'm sick of wrestling with heavy parts, I'm sick of oil all over the floor, I'm sick of dumping hundred dollar bills into the trash, I'm sick of forcing things to fit that don't want to fit, and I'm sick of this stupid car. Why is everything always uphill? Edited September 22, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalef62 Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 Would it be possible to remove one of the gears? Tensioner, cam, crank, or generator??? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40phil41 Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 Matt, I know nothing about this engine but are you sure the idler gear goes outwards in the direction of your arrow? What if you turn the gears so that the slider slot is parallel with the casing and then move the idle at an angle towards the bottom gear. This will put the idler closer to the center and hence the chain will be looser. Please ignore if I am out to lunch. Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 23, 2021 Author Share Posted September 23, 2021 59 minutes ago, dalef62 said: Would it be possible to remove one of the gears? Tensioner, cam, crank, or generator??? I thought of that and tried to remove the cam gear, since it was the easiest one to remove. Unfortunately, the chain is so thick and sturdy that there's no slack at all. There's not enough sideways flex to slide a pulley off the hub, even one of the smaller ones. The generator drive has to come out. 44 minutes ago, 40phil41 said: Matt, I know nothing about this engine but are you sure the idler gear goes outwards in the direction of your arrow? What if you turn the gears so that the slider slot is parallel with the casing and then move the idle at an angle towards the bottom gear. This will put the idler closer to the center and hence the chain will be looser. Please ignore if I am out to lunch. Phil Good thought but the idler is fixed in that position and only moves in that one direction. Only the outer sprocket rotates, not the center with the tensioner mechanism. Thanks for the good thoughts, guys, but I know what has to be done. I'm just not happy about it. I'm tired of taking this thing apart and putting it back together only to have to do it again later for some other stupid reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 I wish I could be there to help with all of that tedious work. I cannot imagine how frustrated you are about it. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prewarnut Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 On 4/5/2021 at 9:42 AM, Matt Harwood said: More busywork on Sunday Engine is pretty grungy--and this is after I tried cleaning up the crankcase with a Scotchbrite wheel Cleaned off the piston tops then soaked them in Marvel Mystery Oil while I turned the engine over gently. Scrubbed the deck surfaces with a Scotchbrite pad, then degreased everything with brake cleaner one last time. I think solace would be that in your 7/27 post you were worried about messing up the timing chain but the tension you find on it seems to say at least you didn't alter anything. The engine must have been this way. In trying to sleuth the timing issue I went back to your clean-up photos above. In the middle photo with the (pink ATM fluid still in?) you can see two pistons at or near TDC. I don't know if these are #1 and #6 or #7 and #12. At any rate, the one on the left seems to show a valve slightly up. On your cleaned up photos the two sides are again shown without any change in crank position although what confuses me is a couple valves now look in slightly different configuration. Anyhow do these photos or any others you have help to show what is going on timing wise? Maybe others here can chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stude17 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Matt have you tried as outlined in this service bulletin? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 23, 2021 Author Share Posted September 23, 2021 9 minutes ago, Stude17 said: Matt have you tried as outlined in this service bulletin? Yep. Take a look at my tensioner--it's already extended all the way. I can't release it any more than it already is. The gap at the top is just where there's a little coil spring that's already compressed as far as it can go. The chain is new so it hasn't stretched yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 I have no idea what the cost of the timing chain would be, but would cutting the timing chain off and replacing it (maybe even reinstalling the old one) instead of doing all of that disassembly be a better solution for your current problem? I think an angle grinder should be able to make quick easy work of that chain which would sure save you a lot of disassembly and reassembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 From page 20: On 8/30/2021 at 5:25 AM, Matt Harwood said: You may recall that I did have the timing cover off and I had to loosen the timing chain to reinstall the generator drive. Can that be done again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 23, 2021 Author Share Posted September 23, 2021 11 minutes ago, Bloo said: From page 20: Can that be done again? That is indeed the plan. Remove generator and generator drive to free up some slack, make the necessary adjustments, then reinstall the timing chain and then the generator drive. I honestly don't see how I could have screwed it up 2-3 teeth worth when I last had it apart. I'm concerned that the tensioner may not be working and it jumped while it was running at some point. I don't know. I guess I'll have to investigate that as well while it's apart. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Coyote Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 You'll get it Matt. I would make sure that the tensioner has free movement up and down and the spring is not binding, bent, or worn and is working properly. Check and recheck everything before putting it back together. We all know it's a pain in the a$$, but we're all pulling for you. If we all could be there to turn wrenches and help we would. You got this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_in_nh Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Forget the shortcuts, Matt. Take all the gears / sprockets off.....it is the best way to inspect everything on their inner bores. What if there is a partially sheared key or other connection point? A thorough removal and inspection will positively find it. Hopefully there is no problem, but you have to verify it first. Best of luck, Tom 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stude17 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said: Yep. Take a look at my tensioner--it's already extended all the way. I can't release it any more than it already is. The gap at the top is just where there's a little coil spring that's already compressed as far as it can go. The chain is new so it hasn't stretched yet. Thanks Matt I only brought it up in the hope it might save you some work. I'm sure you would have done this but is there enough disengagement of the idler teeth from the chain to withdraw the idler sprocket off the bearing/adjusting mechanism? The bulletin does not say this but it seems logical to me that this could be done and that would then give you enough slack in the chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 That service bulletin says you should be able to slip a new chain on with the tensioner pushed outward. It says you should be able to remove an old worn chain that would have some slack in it. and also put a new chain on. But it doesn't give you enough room to remove a new chain. I might conclude your new chain there could be one link short. hmmm. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Mike......could be short a link, or a different tooth profile causing the chain to sit proud......and thus too tight. Guess how I know that? 🤔 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 I tried to count the pins in the chain in the service bulletin diagram and i think i came up with 106, though it was kinda fuzzy. AND when i counted the pins in Matt's chain I got 104.....So,....that is one link shorter if I counted correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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