What makes a car rare??

[md murray]

I saw a Mercedes-Benz restoration facility had an interesting Instagram post this morning lamenting that fact that "there are only 1,400 300 SL Gullwings in the entire world". This instantly struck me as a pretty stout figure for such a highly revered automobile. The gentleman went on to explain that nearly all of the original 1400 unit 3 yr production run have been accounted for with over 75% of them registered in clubs across the world.

I had to laugh, very often on this forum folks talk about very nice early cars with only a few in the world known left to exist. -I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the concept of there being 1400 of these little buggers out there-all being maintained, insured and cared for?

[keiser31]

What makes a car rare is their original production figures. A lot of high dollar cars such as the Mercedes 300 SL Gullwings are followed to their demise. Most are accounted for.

[Matt Harwood]

30 minutes ago, md murray said:

I saw a Mercedes-Benz restoration facility had an interesting Instagram post this morning lamenting that fact that "there are only 1,400 300 SL Gullwings in the entire world". This instantly struck me as a pretty stout figure for such a highly revered automobile. The gentleman went on to explain that nearly all of the original 1400 unit 3 yr production run have been accounted for with over 75% of them registered in clubs across the world.

I had to laugh, very often on this forum folks talk about very nice early cars with only a few in the world known left to exist. -I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the concept of there being 1400 of these little buggers out there-all being maintained, insured and cared for?

 

I'm not at all surprised by the very high survival rate for the Gullwing, which was unlike anything else ever offered to the motoring public. There had been expensive, exclusive cars in the past, but the Gullwing offered performance, racing heritage, exclusivity, and civilized road manners that had never been seen before. They were never "just another old car." Even today, they are shockingly modern to drive and they're approaching 70 years old. In 1955, the waiting list for people who wanted a Gullwing was far longer than the number of cars they could/would build. When production stopped, many of those people still wanted one. They were expensive and special when they were new, owners maintained them, and there was always a waiting list to own one second-hand. They never passed into being just a used car, they never went out of fashion, they never became anachronistic; they were always something remarkable with enthusiasts who desired them and cared for them.

 

They were unique in almost every way, not just because of a weird confluence of options on an otherwise common car. They built about the same number of 1965 Corvettes with the L78 396/425 engine as they did Gullwings, and while the Corvette is a relatively rare and desirable car, it's still a Corvette and there were are another 23,000 or so very similar cars built that year, merely with different options. 

 

I can't think of anything analogous today that would indicate just how special those cars were. Maybe the McLaren F1 or the Ford GT, neither of which ever depreciated and most of which are still in existence--I expect that to continue to be true in coming decades.

 

Cars that are special when they're new tend to stay special. Not special cars tend to have some examples simply exist long enough to become interesting. Not quite the same thing.  Just being produced in low numbers isn't sufficient. Perhaps scarcity is a better term than rare, which suggests that there are more buyers than sellers. There are surely fewer 1963 Rambler station wagons in existence than Gullwings, but that fact alone doesn't make the Ramber a million-dollar car or increase the pool of potential buyers.

 

Remember that in many instances, a car is "rare" because nobody wanted it when it was new. The fact that they didn't make many of that unpopular car doesn't make it any more appealing today.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Also, a good example of valuable doesn't mean rare, nor does rare mean valuable.

 

The 810/812 Cord isn't rare, of 2500 made there are probably 1600 still in existence, but they're valuable.

 

I once owned a 1947 three wheel Davis, rare as it comes, 17 built and maybe 13 left.  When I advertised it in Hemmings, I had exactly one phone call, and price was very affordable.  

Edited February 27, 2019 by trimacar (see edit history)

[md murray]

That is wonderful analogy with the Rambler thank you  well put.  You are correct- I shouldn't confuse scarcity and rarity as they are two totally different things.

-And yes there is probably nothing equivocal on the planet to a Gullwing. But boy if you had told me yesterday that there were 10 times as many Gullwings on the planet than say Stutz Bearcats I would have laughed at you.

[39BuickEight]

Find another one.  If it’s difficult to find another one, it’s rare.  As mentioned, rare and valuable are often 2 different ideas.

[Xander Wildeisen]

Rarity has to do with demand. Have 1 of 1, and no one wants it. It is not rare, there it is available. Have a make of car that only 600 were made, and 1000 people want them, it is now rare to find one on the market.

[poci1957]

Rare is an overused term for sure, usually associated with a sales pitch to imply value and a bit tiresome for me especially when used to hype a regular production car with unusual equipment. 

 

Yesterday I saw a Marti report on a Lincoln that showed about 5000 units produced but statistically reduced down to a one-of-one that was painted white with both a cassette deck and a garage door opener (I am not making this up).  I think (but am not sure) that the owner saw the absurdity and was good humored about the "honor", Todd C 

Edited February 28, 2019 by poci1957 (see edit history)

[K8096]

If it takes more than ten fingers to count the number produced, then it’s not that rare.  

[Hupp36]

My 1936 Hupmobile Model N 8 cyl 4dr  sedan is  1  of  21  produced in 1936. total  production  1935, 1936 and 1937  262 cars in  3  body  styles. When  I  go  to  a  car  show or  a Hupp tour , people lookat  my  car  because  they  never  saw  one. Its  only  valuable to  me  . not  as  a collector car

[Matt Harwood]

That Hupp is a great-looking car! The windshield is a neat bit of engineering that pre-dates curved glass. Too cool.

[edinmass]

What makes a car rare........A very simple answer. The person selling it says so. There are NO rare cars. Cars are simply an  inanimate object subject to suply and demand. Weather there is one, ten, or fourteen hundred, it doesn’t matter. I have NO desire to own post war collector car, thus a “super” Ferrari has NO interest to me, others will pay twenty, and thirty million or more. I wouldn’t give one hundred grand for one. Now, a pre war one off fantastic CCCA Classic, I have over paid for in the past. It’s ones personal values and pocket book that dictate what a car is worth, in the end, they are just all rolling junk yards that we attach emotional value too. That being said, my entire life has mostly been lived in the hobby, and I have had more fun than anyone I know, and I think it’s been a fantastic adventure that I would do all over again. Don’t worry about how many there are, buy what you like and drive it, we will all be gone sooner than we think.  And my personal motto.......”Drive it like you stole it!”

Edited February 27, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

One more thought.......a dealer once told me ..........a “rare car” is one no one wanted when it was new! He was correct!

[Hupp36]

It is a  3 piece  windshield, The  advertisement in the  car brochure  called it  The  pilot house View.

[edinmass]

That Hupp is very cool.........two thumbs up!👍 👍

[Hupp36]

I  have  driven that  car  23,000 miles. The  best  day  was  when i took  my  daughter to  her  wedding.

[1950panhead]

I saw a Mercedes-Benz restoration facility had an interesting Instagram post this morning lamenting that fact that "there are only 1,400 300 SL Gullwings in the entire world". This instantly struck me as a pretty stout figure for such a highly revered automobile. The gentleman went on to explain that nearly all of the original 1400 unit 3 yr production run have been accounted for with over 75% of them registered in clubs across the world.

I had to laugh, very often on this forum folks talk about very nice early cars with only a few in the world known left to exist. -I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the concept of there being 1400 of these little buggers out there-all being maintained, insured and cared for?

 

Here are the stats

The model timeline and production numbers are:
                  1954     1955     1956     1957     1958     1959     1960     1961     1962     1963     Total     (survivors in 1994)
Coupe         166     856     308            70                                                                                           1,400     1,200
Roadster                                             618       267       200        241        256       182          94     1,858     1,458

 

The interesting part is 200 coupes and 400 roadsters are missing (or hidden) from the world.
 

 

[Modeleh]

45 minutes ago, poci1957 said:

 

Yesterday I saw a Marti report on a Lincoln that showed about 5000 units produced but statistically reduced down to a one-of-one that was painted white with both a cassette deck and a garage door opener.  I think (but am not sure) that the owner saw the absurdity and was good humored about the "honor", Todd C 

 

If you ever watch Hagertys Barn Find Hunter, the host Tom Cotter just loves to recite the Marti Report numbers.  Everything is a 1 of a kind for that guy.  Never mind they built 35,000 similar models that year.  

[1939_Buick]

2 hours ago, md murray said:

I saw a Mercedes-Benz restoration facility had an interesting Instagram post this morning lamenting that fact that "there are only 1,400 300 SL Gullwings in the entire world". This instantly struck me as a pretty stout figure for such a highly revered automobile. The gentleman went on to explain that nearly all of the original 1400 unit 3 yr production run have been accounted for with over 75% of them registered in clubs across the world.

I had to laugh, very often on this forum folks talk about very nice early cars with only a few in the world known left to exist. -I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the concept of there being 1400 of these little buggers out there-all being maintained, insured and cared for?

Cars that are "registered in clubs" is not the same as  "maintained, insured ".  Some will just be cared for and beyond restoration or being restored.

[nzcarnerd]

1 hour ago, 1950panhead said:

 

 

 

Here are the stats

The model timeline and production numbers are:
                  1954     1955     1956     1957     1958     1959     1960     1961     1962     1963     Total     (survivors in 1994)
Coupe         166     856     308            70                                                                                           1,400     1,200
Roadster                                             618       267       200        241        256       182          94     1,858     1,458

 

The interesting part is 200 coupes and 400 roadsters are missing (or hidden) from the world.
 

 

 

No doubt some of those missing came to a sticky end in the hands of inadequate drivers.

 

I recall a custom race  car which visited the NZ about 20 years ago called the Kircher Special (not sure of the spelling). It had the engine and gearbox from a 300SL in it.

[Rusty_OToole]

"It's rare and we don't care" - motto of Cold War Motors, an Alberta collector of bizarre European cars like Citroen SM, DS, and Safari, Peugeot 604 and Renault LeCar, Rover P5 3 Litre and unique Canadian models like Dodge Viscount (one year only, Canada only) plus a few Frazers, Fargos, and a customized 1950 Chevy hardtop. And a French poodle hound. His daily driver is a 49 Frazer he rescued from a junkyard.

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

"Rare" is the opposite of "well done" .If you were talking about steaks lol.

[1912Staver]

Rare to me has only to do with the number of survivors. The perceived value is often quite independent. Lots of cars survive in handful numbers, as far as I am concerned they can be described as rare . A fair number of the oddball British car I like were produced in very small numbers . Often as few as 25-250 units. Some are very desirable and sell for serious money and some are quite cheap assuming you can actually find one for sale. 

 

Greg in Canada

[1935Packard]

I think describing a car as "rare" is about as helpful as describing it as "great" or "restored."  Each word hints at a set of ideas, but it can mean almost anything under the circumstances.

[lump]

When I was publisher of CAMARO CORRAL magazine, I received many inquiries from folks about the rarity and (of course) value of various Camaro models. I always recited the same "Value = Supply versus Demand" statement that others have alluded above. First generation Camaros make some excellent examples of this. To wit: The uber-popular Z28 Camaro debuted as an unlisted option in dealership albums in 1967, and only 602 were produced. Next year the RPO Z28 caught on with the buying public (after wins on the SCCA racing circuit), and approximately 7,000 units were sold. By 1969 the whole car-world knew about the awesome Z28 Camaro, and somewhere around 20,000 were made and sold (the highest production figure for Z28's until 1978). However, today the most intense demand among most collectors is centered on the 1969 Z28 model. 1967's can sometimes bring a premium amount, but the beautiful 68 models, which are much less common than 1969 units, bring much less at auction, etc. It doesn't matter how many units were made or sold (as far as "value" is concerned). It only matters how many folks want them, versus how many are available. People tend to confuse the terms. 

 

[1912Staver]

I agree that rare as a description isn't much help.  There are a number of cars that are rare AND desirable enough that decades later more are being made. And still not usually cheap enough to fit my budget. They are usually cheaper than an original but still quite pricy. Westfields, Caterham's, Ginetta's and several others. 

 

I always have hoped of waking up Christmas morning and finding one of these 1:1 scale model kits under the tree. I guess I am on Santa's naughty list.

 

{Westfield 11}

 

Greg in Canada

Edited February 27, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

In the Auburn Category:  You hear things like there are 500 surviving Auburns, but in survival of 1935-1936 851-852 - 8 cyl cars alone is about 125 Speedsters with probably 100 clearly original, 125 plus or so Cabriolets with probably 110 clearly original, 80-90 Phaetons with the majority being clearly original, perhaps 10 Coupes (many bit the dust early on to become converted to Cabriolets), perhaps 15 sedans (most others bit the dust early to become everyone's parts cars), and perhaps 5 broughams (most others bit the dust very early to become everyone's parts cars).  When I say original, there are some fabricated bodies and outside of speedsters there are some 6 cylinder open car bodies that were transferred to 8 cyl chassis.   And, while all the speedsters are supercharged there is a decent roughly 50% division across cabriolets and phaetons (of which some non-supercharged cars were converted to supercharged and visa versa).  The joy is that for 1930's cars they are incredibly driveable.  And there is basically a shortage of cars (at least good ones) compared to demand.

 

As a sidnote:  Baby puke pea green and "stay around brown" painted 70's cars may make something rare, but if that is because no one wanted it to begin with when new that does not necessarily make them any more significant today as same issue exists. 

[John_Mereness]

Sidenote:  Buy something because you like it - you may win or you may loose short or long term, but at least you will like it for what it is.

[lump]

Another factor which someone spoke of earlier in this thread is rate of survival. Certain cars (IE: early Mustang convertibles) caught on earlier in their lifespans as used cars than others. Many folks started putting away "1964-1/2" Mustang convertibles when the cars were barely over 10-15 years old, so lots of them survived. Other cars (IE: late 50's Mopars) didn't catch on with collectors until a tremendous percentage of them were gone forever. 

 

Consequently, early Mustang convertibles are often fairly affordable, even when sold on the auction block in a big TV auction house. Whereas, I have seen late 50's DeSoto and Chrysler convertibles in great shape bring 6 figures...(even green ones!)

[zepher]

I own a 1926 Rickenbacker E6 Brougham.
With around 6 examples known to exist I would say it is rare, most car enthusiasts have never seen a Rickenbacker in person, but that certainly doesn't make it valuable.
There is a ton of family history behind the car so I would never sell it, no matter what the offered price was.
One day it will get the restoration it deserves.
Until then it is a decent looking driver quality car.

Edited February 27, 2019 by zepher (see edit history)

[1950panhead]

[60FlatTop]

"Few and widely separated" If you didn't see them in groups they would go unnoticed.

Bernie

[zepher]

For some reason I couldn't upload a photo of mine.
I forget the story behind the photo you posted.

[1937hd45]

Rare, An overused term to somehow inflate the value of post WWII vehicles. Watch a Barrett-Jackson Auction and count the number of times the term is used. 

 

Bob

[Xander Wildeisen]

Don't forget about medium rare.

[AlfonzoBigBody]

A Yugo is rare to the right person because most of them now are beer cans.

[Hupp36]

Who  in  hell is  talking  about steak?

[poci1957]

1 hour ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Don't forget about medium rare

 

Hmmm......I might try to work that into the conversation.....

 

THEM: "Look at this 1975 Chevy Nova 4dr.  They built 200,000 but now they are very rare, especially with the optional lighted ash tray."

 

ME: "200,000 built but now few remain?  Sounds MEDIUM rare to me."   I LIKE IT, thanks Xander, Todd C   

Edited February 28, 2019 by poci1957 (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

1 minute ago, poci1957 said:

 

Hmmm......I might try to work that into the conversation.....

 

THEM: "Look at this 1975 Chevy Nova 4dr.  They built 200,000 but now they are very rare."

 

ME: "200,000 built but now few remain?  Sounds MEDIUM rare to me."   I LIKE IT, thanks Xander, Todd C   

I love it!!!!

[kfle]

Why does everyone always jump to value?  The OP was wondering about the term 'rare' and immediately people jumped to rarity has some relationship to value, which it does not.  Value is based on supply and demand and while you can have a rare supply, it is the demand and desire that justifies value.  That is not a direct correlation to value, as rarity is just an input.  You could even have very little demand for a car, but if you have a buyer with the means who has a lot of desire or passion about a certain car then the skys the limit in value.  

 

Here is the definition of rare - An adjective meaning not occurring very often.  Synonyms: Infrequent, few and far between, scarce, sparse, scattered

 

You really need to define how you are looking at things and your perspective and then we can apply the term rare appropriately.   For example

 

Is it rare to own a 1931 Duesenberg?  Yes

Was Duesenberg a rare car to see in 1931 out of all of the other cars made in 1931?  Yes

Is it rare to see a Duesenberg at a Concours event or high end car show?  No - there is almost always one at one of these shows

Is it rare to be able to purchase a Duesenberg?  I would say no, because there is almost always one available at every high end auction during the year.  (of course the limiting factor is money which makes it rare to be able to own one)

 

Now take one of the cars I own, a 1925 Cole

Was it rare to see a Cole motor car on the road in 1925?  Yes, as there were only 400 of all models made produced in that year so out of the millions and millions of cars you would probably not have seen one on the road

Is it rare to see a 1925 Cole at a car show or event today?  Yes - there is only 1 known surviving 1925 Cole today so the odds of seeing one at an event are extremely small

Is it rare to be able to purchase a Cole?  Yes - they hardly ever appear for sale in an auction or for sale and while they are relatively affordable, it could take you years to be able to purchase one if you decided you want one

 

So lets apply that to the Mercedes Gull Wing 

Is it rare to own one?  Yes only a potential 1400 people can own one out of the world population

Was it rare to see one of these on the road in it's day?  Yes, out of all of the cars on the road, it would not have been common at all

Is it rare to be able to see one at a show or event?  Not really, because the owners love to display these at events

Is it rare to be able to purchase one of these?  No, because they are for sale, however again, money is the limiting factor but they are available for purchase.

 

So again, rarity absolutely does apply to a car as per the definition of the word rare, however the real question is how are you applying it and is it being used correctly?   I would say that the misuse of the word over the years has made people very skeptical of the word.