Advice on a Bentley please.

[George Smolinski]

I'm considering buying a 1956 Bentley S1 that doesn't run. It had head work done & head reinstalled. It turns over, but won't fire & run. I know a lot depends on why it had head work. Considering it's a complete car, did run, & all parts are on the engine correctly, what am I getting myself into? Worst case of needing a rebuild of the engine, is it expensive? Can a good mechanic with no Bentley experience do it?

Did Bentley use GM hrdramatics as transmissions back then?

Pros & cons of owning a car like this once it's roadworthy?

Collectibility?

Edited December 11, 2017 by George Smolinski
typo (see edit history)

[capngrog]

Bentley used Hydramatic transmissions from 1952 through 1967.  According to Wikipedia, Rolls-Royce was licensed to build the Hydramatic, but I don't know if they built the entire unit or just assembled "Made in the U.S.A." parts.  From what I've read, most parts interchange between the GM-built transmissions and those built by R-R, but apparently some gaskets were unique to the R-R units.

 

To answer your question about whether or not it would be expensive to rebuild a 1956 Bentley engine, my opinion is that the answer is "YES".

 

I recall a thread on this forum that discussed the difficulty of re-building a Rolls-Royce or Bentley engine.  I believe that Dandy Dave has some experience with these engines.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[Larry Schramm]

21 minutes ago, capngrog said:

To answer your question about whether or not it would be expensive to rebuild a 1956 Bentley engine, my opinion is that the answer is "YES".

 

I recall a thread on this forum that discussed the difficulty of re-building a Rolls-Royce or Bentley engine.  I believe that Dandy Dave has some experience with these engines.

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

I know that he rebuilt about a 1925 Rolls Royce about a year ago.

[padgett]

That's just a "big six" and easier to work on than a Jag of the same timeframe. Always liked the fastback better than the bustle back.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

George, this sounds like a car here in CT.  If so, while I cannot advise on the mechanics, Orrie, the seller is a straight shooter who is one of those bright younger people in the hobby/business.  

[CarlLaFong]

I did a light rebuild on a 52 about 30 years ago. The parts were available then, but fiendishly expensive

[edinmass]

 That’s a pretty complicated machine.  It’s not for a beginner. It’s probably Whitworth,  so every tool AND hardware will be special.  Parts are VERY expensive  for any year Rolls or Bentley.

Edited December 11, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I would recommend joining the RROC and using all that talents available through the club and local chapter to find and buy the best car you can for your money. I did that on a strong commendation in 1994. I have had a lot of nice Buicks since then, but I haven't bought a Bentley or a Rolls-Royce. The person who made the recommendation back in '94 says I am doing good.

 

PM me and I will give you his phone number. I am sure he will take the time to help you.

 

Years ago he went to a modern car brake servicing seminar at club headquarters in Mechanicsburg. When he returned I asked how the seminar went. He said "Not so good. I still think I can do them myself."

Bernie

[alsancle]

You didn't say LHD or RHD.  If the former, then proceed following posted advice.  If it is the latter, do not under any circumstances buy the car.

[John_S_in_Penna]

41 minutes ago, alsancle said:

You didn't say LHD or RHD.  If the former, then proceed following posted advice.  If it is the latter, do not under any circumstances buy the car.

 

I'm following this thread with interest, hoping to

learn, even though I don't plan on getting such a car.

Several years ago, one of the Rolls-Royce Owners' Club

members said, only half-jokingly, that their club members

were either "millionaires or mechanics."  That tells a lot about

the high repair costs.

 

Are these cars even all that reliable?  Other English brands,

coming from that then-socialist country, are not known

for being reliable cars.  Alsancle, can you give details of

why right-hand-drive cars are to be avoided?

Edited December 11, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[alsancle]

A universal rule of collectible cars in the U.S.A is that if a car was available both LHD or RHD there is a big discount for the RHD.   The problem is that the discount is not always accounted for and you will find that when you go to sell the car again the market is much much smaller.   In these situations, buy the LHD or don't buy at all.

 

If a car was only available RHD,  such as Isotta, Hispano, etc, then the market is very clear.

[60FlatTop]

Buying a car without intimate knowledge in servicing it can be quite a problem, more so if you hire the services. My friend figures his Silver Cloud has 385 miles on it. He drives it to meets and still takes national awards. The killer with almost any car is the deferred maintenance you inherit from the previous owner. That is your big expense and very easily hidden.

 

Right around the turn of the century I bought my first Jaguar, a V12 XJS. My learning curve was steep, much steeper than the reliability and condition curve of that car. I learned a little. I have owned five others since.

I'm figuring my seventh Jaguar is going to be one really nice car....... I kinda hope.

 

Bernie

Edited December 11, 2017 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Digger914]

7 hours ago, George Smolinski said:

I'm considering buying a 1956 Bentley S1 that doesn't run. It had head work done & head reinstalled. It turns over, but won't fire & run. I know a lot depends on why it had head work. Considering it's a complete car, did run, & all parts are on the engine correctly, what am I getting myself into? Worst case of needing a rebuild of the engine, is it expensive? Can a good mechanic with no Bentley experience do it?

Did Bentley use GM hrdramatics as transmissions back then?

Pros & cons of owning a car like this once it's roadworthy?

Collectibility?

George, not quite sure where you are in the metro area,  but the best person to answer all your Benlty questions is Dave, the car collector and Bently owner who volunteers as a tank mechanic at the national guard museum by Fort Snelling.

[Matt Harwood]

There is a reason this car is not running and it isn't because the seller simply doesn't have the time to do it.

[daniel boeve]

I have a 1958 S1 and i am very happy with it .Its a RHD and i bought it because it was cheap and had the countryman options witch is very rare .Had no mechanical problems yet so cannot advice on costs but i do all the work myself otherwise don't buy it .

[SC38dls]

Are you thinking of this as a show car or a driver?  How’s the interior?  How many miles are on it?  As asked above RHD or LHD?  How’s the glass?  How are the brakes?  Wheel & tires?  Paint? All of this will be expensive some can be done in time. All will help in getting a value on it and I’m sure guys that really know these cars would be able to give you better answers. Pics help also

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

16 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

How are the brakes?

 

Including the shipping I got just a hair under $2,000 for a used Bentley grille.

 

Is there a puddle of power steering fluid under the front bumper?

[alsancle]

I don't know much about the post 1965 Rolls/Bentley other than you should not buy a RHD model in the U.S.

 

However,  I can say the earlier cars are fantastic in most respects.  With some maintenance they will run forever.  This is me and my senior prom date back in 82.  This car is up to 170k miles with original everything mechanically.

 

[JV Puleo]

They are not a complicated engine... I'd say they are actually quite simple. I believe the engine was developed for the military during WWII and used in a number of military trucks. The RRs have a single carb... the Bentleys haves have a dual SU setup. Likely some parts are expensive but that depends on what you need. Any competent mechanic familiar with post-war 6 cylinder engines should be able to handle the engine job. The brakes are servo operated and do have some quirks. I don't believe there are any American braking systems that are similar so that might be a problem for the average mechanic. The exhaust valves are a real pain to adjust because they are behind the exhaust manifolds and are supposed to be adjusted hot. You need 2 wrenches, 3 hands and a dental mirror. The exhaust manifolds are prone to breaking but if in good condition and properly attached, I don't think that should be a problem. In other words... a car with its own set of demands but not any worse than many others. I'd rather work on one than my 97 GMC. I would not say this about the SII. The early V8 engines were a major problem.

 

As to being durable, I've seen many that were still running reasonably strong after years of abuse.

[JV Puleo]

Oh... and I've never had a problem with RHD. I don't quite understand why that is such a big issue to so many people though I don't doubt that it is.

[Rusty_OToole]

Do you really want the car? Are you a good mechanic, and can you afford to buy parts? Does the engine turn over and have compression? Does the price reflect the condition, in other words is it irresistibly cheap? If the answer is yes to all questions, why not have a go? Worst case you can't get it running but can sell it for what you paid, or part it out and get your money back.

[C Carl]

Advice ? Advice you ask ? O.K. , George here is some : Don't let your engine end up like this -  ( ? ? ?  -  Carl )

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by C Carl
? ? ? (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Then I will be more specific: an inoperable Rolls-Royce/Bentley is the most expensive black hole ever invented by man. Hell, just the brake fluid is $25/pint (pint, not quart). It is a car intentionally designed to be difficult to service and expensive to maintain, ostensibly forcing you to take it to the dealership and to preserve the unique character (they do drive differently and quite well when they're right, I'll say that much). It is a car designed by aircraft engineers with no budget, no concept of service in the field, and in a country that invented its own unique type of nuts and bolts. It is a car so expensive to own and maintain that not even Bill Gates is willing to keep a post-war Rolls-Royce/Bentley in 100% proper working order. Yes, there are plenty around with owners that keep them "running" but that isn't the same as properly maintained. I have yet to see a post-war Rolls-Royce/Bentley without significant deferred maintenance issues and it isn't because the owners are lazy. Most of them have a life cycle that goes like this:

 

1. Get ancient Rolls-Royce/Bentley at a cheap price. Woo-hoo! A-list luxury and prestige at a bargain-basement price. What a find! Such a smart investment! Man, this is gonna be so cool! Wait 'till the guys see me in this!

2. Spend sizeable fortune getting it into shape, because, after all, you got it so cheap. You'll still probably come out ahead, right? It's a Rolls-Royce/Bentley!

3. Realize that even routine maintenance is horrifyingly expensive and is required often. Most of the hardware is robust, but little stuff will start to fail and most things won't work 100% and you'll need the help of an expert to sort it out. This is the stasis point where most "owner maintained" cars reside. About 85% functional and not quite right going down the road.

4. After several years of multi-thousand dollar annual maintenance bills, get fed up and stop maintaining the car properly.

5. Things start to fail. When enough things break that you are sick of the car, sell it at a loss and are grateful to have it out of your life. Your wife calls you a fool and your friends feel sympathy. You feel a massive weight off your shoulders nonetheless. Your life gets better without the shadow of that thing in your garage.

6. Repeat with new owner.

 

I recently spent $8000 on the brakes of a Corniche, and it didn't even include calipers, rotors, pads, lines, or hoses. Every Rolls-Royce/Bentley I've ever had has included a thick folder full of receipts that add up to tens of thousands of dollars, and the cars still had a bunch of broken stuff on them. None of them have ever driven correctly and all have had deferred maintenance issues. They have all been sold at discount prices. It is for this reason that I will no longer have a post-war Rolls-Royce or Bentley in my shop. No new owner is ever pleased with his purchase, no matter how carefully I explain the situation to him. Expectations never match reality, even when there's someone flat-out telling you that it's expensive to maintain and needs a shit-ton of work. They are blinded by the bling. The cars are special, but the actual ownership experience is less so. Pay extra to buy someone else's fully finished car, drive it for two years, then get out before it starts to fail. That's the only way to enjoy one of these cars without getting buried in it.

 

The seller always knows how bad it is, but is hoping that the buyer does not. It is the most extravagant example of a sucker's game in the automotive kingdom.

[HarryLime]

As if there isn't enough sound advice here already, I suggest reading kda132.com/technical.html   The author has much experience with post war RR and Bentley. The articles will open the blindest of eyes to what lies ahead to a buyer. It even includes a prebuy inspection checklist beginning with putting on coveralls ! I maintained my fathers 1951 SD for several years after a body off restoration. Fun to drive to a show, but as Matt states, it's a BLACK HOLE  ! I'm so happy it is in Texas now.

[alsancle]

I think I would distinguish the cars from the 40s, 50s, and early 60s from the cars from the 70, 80s and 90s.   But then again, I only one we have ever owned was a 59 Silver Wraith.   But it is a car that you can work on the mechanicals and get parts for.  The very expensive aspects of it are easy to see, aluminium body, leather, woodwork, etc.  You can tell the condition by looking at the car and if it needs those things, well yeah, they are expensive.

[JV Puleo]

I have to agree with alsancle on that one. The immediate post-war cars, the Bentley MK VI and S1 and the Silver Cloud 1 are not the challenge that much newer cars are. But, what this really boils down to is "how much are you willing to do yourself?" If it's necessary to run to the mechanic for every little problem, yes it will be expensive, if only because many (or most) mechanics will be intimidated by the car or presume the owner has money to burn.

 

I did quite a lot of MK VI Bentley work, including having the heads of several. I never came across one that needed a complete engine job and, at the time, that would have been odd as this was in the 70s and even the cars that had been driven into the ground didn't need that. I have seen broken engine mounts, broken exhaust manifolds, worn out brakes etc... all things that were fixable with a little ingenuity. For example, I did the brakes on several MK VI and S1 Bentleys. The cylinder rubber parts from the RR dealership were frightfully expensive but the identical part for several other British cars was relatively inexpensive. But... I had to figure this out myself. If you have to pay a mechanic to do this for you, you might as well buy the expensive part. Keep in mind that the post-war 6-cylinder cars were first offered when Britain was on it's back... food rationing was still in effect long after the war and the need for foreign capital was overwhelming. There was no time for developing special, proprietary parts. The real challenge comes from the different ways things were done. These will often be at odds with what a conventional mechanic, or owner, has seen. They do require a little research and thought but, in the end, everything is logical.

 

 

[Restorer32]

I can tell you this. We tried to repair the brakes on a '64 Rolls. Turned out the engine cam shaft was bad. Anyone with experience with these cars will recognize the connection between poor braking and a bad cam. Not sure if this applies to the Bentley in question or not.

[JV Puleo]

It doesn't. The complication with the brakes on the car in question is that the master cylinders are operated by a servo that runs off the transmission. There is a servo lining... it looks like a tiny clutch lining. If it is worn out it might be a challenge to find. At one point I had a stack of them but have no idea where they went. Replacing it is easy enough. Also, the brake linings have to be concentric with the drums to work properly so access to one of the old brake shoe grinding machines is important. The factory manual for the car actually recommends cutting 1-1/2" of lining off the top of the leading shoe if the brakes are relined.

 

My experience pretty much ends with these cars. I've never had any interest in the V8 cars and later. I do recognize that they have become frightfully complicated but probably no more so than the high end Mercedes and the like.

Edited December 12, 2017 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

When I am in Rochester I usually swing by Doug Seibert's Garage. It is a RR/B service shop that is quite often listed with For Sale ads as "serviced by". We have been friends since the mid-1980's when he was in the heating business and I was an HVAC apprenticeship instructor. I am pretty good with electrical work and diagnostics. So it is always a conversation on the job DuJour. I have rewired a few cars and have quite deep knowledge of the mechanicals from the PI that we test drove the first time I ate a hummus sandwich to getting a fussy Shadow switch quadrant to work.

 

Here is a picture I took in the back room one day when I stopped.

 

The word from day one was "The most expensive car you can buy is a cheap Rolls-Royce." I can follow that up with "The greatest regrets I have are cars I didn't buy." They are not mutually exclusive. I haven't bought one in all these years, maybe, because I am familiar with what I like and what I don't.

In George's case, buy it if you really want it. I would. I worked out a formula when distance buying became common with the internet. I figure I can loose $3,000 a year on hobby related mistakes. I know the market and generally won't reach three grand beyond the fire sale value of a car. I can recover and food stays on the table. Since becoming aware and playing by my own rules I haven't been hurt yet. In fact I have made a little on the couple I should not have bought. Just don't marry the thing.

Be prepared. Imagine having to replace the motor and transmission mounts to have rear brakes. They are mechanical brakes and the linkage has to align.  I was surprised at the engines shown. Usually the exhaust manifold bolts are a true mess. Guys get in there with a 1/4-20 tap and really muck up the Brit threads. A water pump seal kit for a long idle engine will cost the better part of $500. The heater matrix is lurking in a spot you won't believe. A common problem is oil spots on the driveway under the suspension joints. Sometimes the "fix" is to braze or plug the Bijur fittings. This eliminates lubricant to expensive components.

The owner says "No oil spots under the car I just bought." the mechanic gets a great big smile- like they were cloning Ben Franklin. Ask the previous owner if the slipper clutch has been serviced. No, it is not a fancy bag the ballerina carries her shoes in. But it will give that "good mechanic" a case of the mumbles.

I have been interested and tempted for about 30 years now. I have said "Whenever I get out of a Silver Cloud after a drive, I always close the door and say "A Buick Roadmaster is a great car!"" is an honest fact. I would have a Rolls-Royce or Bentley today if I hadn't bought those Buicks and Cadillacs.

Bernie

[John_S_in_Penna]

10 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

...I figure I can lose $3,000 a year on hobby related mistakes....

 

I visited the Rolls Royce Owners' Club in Penna. one day

and found a bunch of their members in the parking lot,

with their cars, for some event.  They were interesting to talk to.

 

Even there in south-central Penna., the heart of antique-car country,

they said there was no one to service the Rollses and Bentleys.

Instead, they suggested taking them for routine service to a man

near Philadelphia, at least 2 hours away.  They said to allow $3000

a year for routine service--just the amount Bernie says he can

set aside to lose!

 

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Pretty close to the cost of a pack of cigarettes per day.

 

My Wife smokes and drives a Tahoe that hardly ever needs repairs.

 

She has tried to quit but she thinks I will buy a Bentley with the extra money. So she gets nervous and starts again.

[George Smolinski]

6 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Then I will be more specific: an inoperable Rolls-Royce/Bentley is the most expensive black hole ever invented by man. Hell, just the brake fluid is $25/pint (pint, not quart). It is a car intentionally designed to be difficult to service and expensive to maintain, ostensibly forcing you to take it to the dealership and to preserve the unique character (they do drive differently and quite well when they're right, I'll say that much). It is a car designed by aircraft engineers with no budget, no concept of service in the field, and in a country that invented its own unique type of nuts and bolts. It is a car so expensive to own and maintain that not even Bill Gates is willing to keep a post-war Rolls-Royce/Bentley in 100% proper working order. Yes, there are plenty around with owners that keep them "running" but that isn't the same as properly maintained. I have yet to see a post-war Rolls-Royce/Bentley without significant deferred maintenance issues and it isn't because the owners are lazy. Most of them have a life cycle that goes like this:

 

1. Get ancient Rolls-Royce/Bentley at a cheap price. Woo-hoo! A-list luxury and prestige at a bargain-basement price. What a find! Such a smart investment! Man, this is gonna be so cool! Wait 'till the guys see me in this!

2. Spend sizeable fortune getting it into shape, because, after all, you got it so cheap. You'll still probably come out ahead, right? It's a Rolls-Royce/Bentley!

3. Realize that even routine maintenance is horrifyingly expensive and is required often. Most of the hardware is robust, but little stuff will start to fail and most things won't work 100% and you'll need the help of an expert to sort it out. This is the stasis point where most "owner maintained" cars reside. About 85% functional and not quite right going down the road.

4. After several years of multi-thousand dollar annual maintenance bills, get fed up and stop maintaining the car properly.

5. Things start to fail. When enough things break that you are sick of the car, sell it at a loss and are grateful to have it out of your life. Your wife calls you a fool and your friends feel sympathy. You feel a massive weight off your shoulders nonetheless. Your life gets better without the shadow of that thing in your garage.

6. Repeat with new owner.

 

I recently spent $8000 on the brakes of a Corniche, and it didn't even include calipers, rotors, pads, lines, or hoses. Every Rolls-Royce/Bentley I've ever had has included a thick folder full of receipts that add up to tens of thousands of dollars, and the cars still had a bunch of broken stuff on them. None of them have ever driven correctly and all have had deferred maintenance issues. They have all been sold at discount prices. It is for this reason that I will no longer have a post-war Rolls-Royce or Bentley in my shop. No new owner is ever pleased with his purchase, no matter how carefully I explain the situation to him. Expectations never match reality, even when there's someone flat-out telling you that it's expensive to maintain and needs a shit-ton of work. They are blinded by the bling. The cars are special, but the actual ownership experience is less so. Pay extra to buy someone else's fully finished car, drive it for two years, then get out before it starts to fail. That's the only way to enjoy one of these cars without getting buried in it.

 

The seller always knows how bad it is, but is hoping that the buyer does not. It is the most extravagant example of a sucker's game in the automotive kingdom.

Matt,

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel about Bentleys.

Thanks. You answered ALL my Bentley questions. Glad I asked before diving in.

[jeff_a]

George,

If you want a little bling, high-end stuff, consider what most say is wasteful -- a lease. I was listening to a talk radio show last week and a guy said he was leasing a new Maserati for $900 a month. $900! Get a brand new one(Maserati, Jaguar, etc.) -- every thing works -- wash your hands of it in a year or two.

Edited December 12, 2017 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

George, The most important thing to remember: after nearly a hundred years of perpetuating the advertising hoax to promote one of the most over complicated vehicle ever built, they sold the whole kit and caboodle to the Germans. 

Now, THAT has to be the greatest example of justice in the history of mankind!

 

At least they kept the original Flying Lady.

[Pluto]

2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

The heater matrix is lurking in a spot you won't believe.

 

A mechanic friend of mine ruefully says of a different but similar marque, "They hang the matrix from a string and build the car around it."

[Willie Wurke]

This is not my opinion but actual facts.

Be ready for some surprises!! 

 

I rebuilt the engine in my 1952 SD in 2002.( Basically the same engine but 4.5 litre vs your 4.9 )

6  Pistons                    $1813 00.

6 Exh, valve guides    $47.23 each

Piston rings                 $350.00 set

Head gasket                $250.00 

 

NUFF SAID?

[padgett]

Looking at some advts for period Bentleys suspect the magic letters are "SBC". Did once repair the power brake servo on an E-type with an inner tube and some hose clamps. Do still have a set of whitworth wrenches....somewhere.

 

ps Jag owner's manuals of the period has a section on "decarbonizing the valves". Head was supposed to come off periodically.

[alsancle]

Jags are another one where we need to distinguish between pre 1970 and post 1970.   My mom drove her XK140 every day in the summer from about 1974 to 1994 and it never let her down once.

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

Jags are another one where we need to distinguish between pre 1970 and post 1970.   My mom drove her XK140 every day in the summer from about 1974 to 1994 and it never let her down once.

 

If my my mom had that much luck I would be sending her to the store to buy lottery tickets! ?

[60FlatTop]

A British car is fine as long as it is not your ONLY car.

 

And a little blue stool is a wonderful place to sit ALONE and be at peace with the world.

Bernie