Just how safe are mechanical brakes ? ? ?

[60FlatTop]

My grandfather told me he drove a Model T Ford with no brakes right down Main St. in Chicago the day they had the Parade of the Virgins without any trouble. In later years it gave me confidence to drive without brakes many times.

 

I also went to Chicago a couple of times.
 

[Grimy]

4 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

My grandfather told me he drove a Model T Ford with no brakes right down Main St. in Chicago the day they had the Parade of the Virgins without any trouble. In later years it gave me confidence to drive without brakes many times.

 

I also went to Chicago a couple of times.
 

Pretty small parade.....

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

After spending the last week trying to fix the Antilock Braking System on my RAM pick-em-up I was wishing it had mechanical brakes.  Those I understand.

 

Just throw money and parts at it..........and then tell the customer they owe you 3500 dollars....and it still isn't fixed. That is what most of the dealers in Florida do. 

[1wonton]

My father told me brakes were for stopping.  I watch the traffic a couple cars ahead and let off the accelerator enough so I taht I rarely have to use the brakes.  So many lousy drives are one foot on the accelerator and one foot on the brake pedal.

[Buffalowed Bill]

You could always do what an old friend and well known backyard restorer would do after he finished with a mechanical brake job. He would go down a backroad at 50-60 mph take his hands off the wheel lay into the brake peddle. This would invariably lock up all four wheels. Once you have experienced this for yourself all doubts about mechanical brakes disappear. Sadly Ernie is no longer with us but not because of his brake testing procedure. 

[Owen_Dyneto]

Well-engineered and maintained mechanical brakes can be superior in reliability and performance to poorly designed and maintained hydraulic brakes.  And the reverse can also be true.  The Bendix mechanical brakes with Bragg-Kliesrath booster system on my 1934 Packard and extremely competent brakes, certainly at least the equal and perhaps better than many hydraulic brakes of the era.  In my view the only drawback is the once or twice in a lifetime major adjustment done at reline times.  The advantage is impressive stopping power and never having to be concerned about fluid, hoses, moisture, hydraulic seals, etc., just requiring an occasional check and lube of wear surfaces.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)

[POLSKA]

WOW!  I am certainly impressed by the number of responses I've received!  I thank you ALL for your feedback on the topic and recommendations, it's been most helpful.   I think the best thing to do, is try one on for size and travel a bit to find out how they respond.   I have been eyeing a '31 Oldsmobile roadster, and a couple of '31-'33 Chevy 2 seaters that have been restored.  I'm thinking the Chevy's are probably more easily maintained.  KUDOS to this site and all the member for sharing! ! ! !  If anyone knows of a turn-key vehicle for sale in NJ or bordering please let me know.  

[edinmass]

Consider engine size first. If you want to operate over 45 mph, you need to be sure you're looking at the right platform. Most 30's cars are NOT happy at highway speeds. 

[nat]

6 hours ago, 1wonton said:

20 hours ago, nat said:

Also carry a good change of underwear, just in case.....................................

     Passengers are the most prone to injury.  The steering column should kill the driver before getting hurt.

     

[JV Puleo]

2 hours ago, POLSKA said:

WOW!  I am certainly impressed by the number of responses I've received!  I thank you ALL for your feedback on the topic and recommendations, it's been most helpful.   I think the best thing to do, is try one on for size and travel a bit to find out how they respond.   I have been eyeing a '31 Oldsmobile roadster, and a couple of '31-'33 Chevy 2 seaters that have been restored. 

I'd favor the Olds...it was MUCH more car. That said, if mechanical reliability is your concern don't place too much emphasis on "restored." A lot of restored cars are mechanically unsound with new paint and upholstery...Just ask Ed...who makes his living making high end "restored" cars actually driveable.

Edited February 14, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[MikeC5]

As I've often said, no brakes never stopped me....  He he.  Sorry, had to do it.

[Jim Mead]

Easy on the Tractor Mechanics …..

like Lamborghini ?

Or my excellent man here at home. 
We Farm on side hills…that’s playing for keeps !   

[hidden_hunter]

My 1922 Cadillac's rear wheel brakes stopped very well once they were properly adjusted - currently getting the bands relined at the moment as it was just down to the rivets

[Fordy]

Rear wheel only brakes on my '24 Hupp and they are reasonably effective and I drive it accordingly - always trying to maintain enough distance to what's in front and trying to anticipate the unexpected. What has not been said here is BEWARE of the Knuckleheaded moron in a modern car who inevitably zips into that gap you have left as a safety margin when approaching a set of traffic lights thus reducing your stopping distance just so he can be one car length in front of where he was! It's those idiots you need to be concerned about, not the capabilities of your vehicle which is probably maintained to a much higher standard than Joe Average's plastic box of crap on wheels.

[alsancle]

As a general rule all of these cars in this period had thousands of hours of engineering time invested in them and their systems worked in harmony with each other.   The braking system was appropriate for the speed the car was expected to achieve.   Well serviced and maintained period mechanical brakes will also do a fine job assuming you drive the car as intended.

 

Where guys get in trouble is when they start "improving" things.   Will a 1920s car with a modern crate engine stop well enough with period brakes?   Probably not.

[60FlatTop]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

Where guys get in trouble is when they start "improving" things.

Those guys can create life long learning opportunities. Early in my working career I worked as a millwright in a foundry. We had an aggressive crane operator who liked to swing the magnetic crane with vigor. The mechanic tired of tightening the turret bolts and replaced them with upgraded hardened bolts. They didn't stretch and loosen.

 

One of my first jobs was to get the crane back up on the turret and install original style bolts that would stretch before they broke. I was the previous guy's replacement.

 

Looking back over the years my greatest successes have been removing improvements. But I haven't had much luck convincing people to fix instead of improve.

 

[CHuDWah]

On 2/13/2023 at 2:51 PM, 61polara said:

All Chrysler products of the 1930's had hydraulic brakes as well as some of the independents.  GM switched in the mid 1930's but Ford held out until 1940.

 

Close, but no cigar - Ford went to hydraulics on the 1939 models.

[CHuDWah]

On 2/14/2023 at 1:04 AM, 1937hd45 said:

Someone is going to become very rich after inventing the system that interrupts the cellphone chat to warn the driver on their phone of their impending crash into the car in front of them. 

I've always said cars should be equipped with cell phone jammers that are activated whenever the engine is running.

[CHuDWah]

On 2/13/2023 at 8:22 PM, nat said:

...With mechanical brakes, the "hand brake, (AKA), "emergency brake" should be nearly as effective as the service brakes...  

 

I was driving one of our Model A Fords (probably faster than I should have) when a car in front of me stopped short.  I hit the service brake and saw I wasn't going to get stopped in time.  I gave a hard yank on the emergency brake lever and locked it up right quick - stopped straight without skidding and didn't hit anything.

[1937hd45]

19 minutes ago, CHuDWah said:

I've always said cars should be equipped with cell phone jammers that are activated whenever the engine is running.

This is going back a few years, the wife of a guy I worked for just got a brand-new Jaguar sedan. Black with a standard shift on the floor. I asked her how she liked the car, " Tough to shift while on the phone." was her reply. 

[1937hd45]

16 minutes ago, CHuDWah said:

 

I was driving one of our Model A Fords (probably faster than I should have) when a car in front of me stopped short.  I hit the service brake and saw I wasn't going to get stopped in time.  I gave a hard yank on the emergency brake lever and locked it up right quick - stopped straight without skidding and didn't hit anything.

15 Million Model T's had the same two wheel rear brakes, most of the original owners died from eating carrots, NOT mechanical brakes. 

[zepher]

I would say that the brakes on my Pierce Arrow are every bit as competent as the brakes on the 4 wheel drum '64 Malibu I used to own.

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, CHuDWah said:

I've always said cars should be equipped with cell phone jammers that are activated whenever the engine is running.

 Back in the early 1990's I was a passenger in a Pierce-Arrow convertible coupe while the owner took a cell phone call at a little over 50 MPH. I remember being impressed by the technology delta. The phone was one of those big clunky ones with an antenna.

A few hundred feet after ending the call a car pulled off a side road trying "not to get stuck behind an old car". The driver laughed and said "That fool thinks I have brakes."

 

His other P-A has a vacuum can attached to a jackshaft for the four wheel cable brakes. I was able to free that one up to give a modest assist.

 

Cell phone jammers? Not until I master my remote jammers.

[CHuDWah]

4 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

 Back in the early 1990's I was a passenger in a Pierce-Arrow convertible coupe while the owner took a cell phone call at a little over 50 MPH. I remember being impressed by the technology delta. The phone was one of those big clunky ones with an antenna.

A few hundred feet after ending the call a car pulled off a side road trying "not to get stuck behind an old car". The driver laughed and said "That fool thinks I have brakes."

 

His other P-A has a vacuum can attached to a jackshaft for the four wheel cable brakes. I was able to free that one up to give a modest assist.

 

Cell phone jammers? Not until I master my remote jammers.

 

Nice selfie! 🤣

[Jim Mead]

I’ve heard it said that Ford Model T’s, by virtue of being braked via the contracting band on essentially the drive shaft, only provide single wheel brakes after the full slip differential action is taken into consideration. 
Anyone know if any legitimate study has been done on the stopping resistance offered by each T rear wheel under normal braking ?

[danaezabail]

I have owned and driven thousands of miles in pre WWII era cars that had both types of brake systems - hydraulic and mechanical ( cable) brakes. Both are great OR not so great , it depends upon if someone who knows what they are servicing 

https://showbox.bio/ https://jfi.uno/jiofilocalhtml
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[Marty Roth]

On 2/15/2023 at 3:31 PM, CHuDWah said:

 

I was driving one of our Model A Fords (probably faster than I should have) when a car in front of me stopped short.  I hit the service brake and saw I wasn't going to get stopped in time.  I gave a hard yank on the emergency brake lever and locked it up right quick - stopped straight without skidding and didn't hit anything.

No matter how excellent the braking system, 2-wheel / 4-wheel / mechanical / hydraulic / air / drum / disc / etc,

it all still depend on the tire contact patch (or your front bumper and crush zone) !

[CHuDWah]

1 hour ago, Marty Roth said:

No matter how excellent the braking system, 2-wheel / 4-wheel / mechanical / hydraulic / air / drum / disc / etc,

it all still depend on the tire contact patch (or your front bumper and crush zone) !

True and 475x19 on 30-31 Model A (or worse, 440x21 on 28-29) ain't much patch.  At least the bumpers are spring steel. 🤣

[keithb7]

I rebuilt the 4 wheel mechanical drum brakes on a 1928 Dodge Bros Standard 6 sedan.  It was the first time for me learning about mechanical brakes. It was fun. I learned a few new things about mechanical advantage. It did take me a few attempts to get the brakes set up decently. I found that a clean asphalt road or concrete pad is a good place to set them up. You can then see the 4 tire skid marks clearly. You can see which brake is locking up first, or not at all. Then adjust each brake as needed.  It’s best when they all brake equally. More stopping power, and you brake in a straight line.  Its easy to lock-up all 4 wheels, skidding to a stop. 
 

If the brakes are set to engage too high, at the top of the pedal, you give up mechanical advantage. Same if set too low near the floor. Levers and fulcrum points are utilized to provide increased braking power. Its a good lesson to grasp. 
 

The brakes work quite well for the car. Its not a heavy car. It cruises nicely at 30 mph. The brake system is just fine for the car that was designed to be driven in 1928. I’m comfortable driving it around town today. It’ll never see hi-way speeds. I’m not too worried about braking performance at 50+ mph. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[nat]

     I don't know of any car that ever had a four wheel hand brake.  If and when the parking brake on modern cars work it's on the rear wheels only.  None of them work as well as a good old fashioned hand/emergency brake.

[Matt Harwood]

8 minutes ago, nat said:

     I don't know of any car that ever had a four wheel hand brake.  If and when the parking brake on modern cars work it's on the rear wheels only.  None of them work as well as a good old fashioned hand/emergency brake.

 

The hand brake on my 1929 Cadillac actuated the brakes at all four corners. It simply was a different way to apply the brakes--when the hand brake was locked, the pedal was limp.

[nat]

     Did the Hudson Hornet have fail-safe brakes that went to four wheel mechanical if/when the hydraulic system failed?

[Paul Dobbin]

Just how safe are mechanical brakes ? ? ?

Depends on the driver and how well he knows his vehicle and adjusts his speed according to driving and traffic conditions.   (Know your stopping distance).

For good well informed drivers, mechanical brakes are safe.

[Leif in Calif]

On 2/15/2023 at 4:40 PM, Jim Mead said:

I’ve heard it said that Ford Model T’s, by virtue of being braked via the contracting band on essentially the drive shaft, only provide single wheel brakes after the full slip differential action is taken into consideration. 
Anyone know if any legitimate study has been done on the stopping resistance offered by each T rear wheel under normal braking ?

Right. the "T" system via the open differential works well if both rear wheels have traction. If one wheel is in a slimy gutter, the system will lock that wheel and think it's done it's job. I drive a '25 Chevy that only has brakes on the rear. I think it's OK within the original design envelope, which means 35mph and under and not much traffic. A higher performance 2 wheel brake car like an Cadillac would require more caution. The higher center of gravity on earlier cars means that there is more weight shift onto the front wheels in a stop, making a  rear wheel skid more likely. As we learned in 8th grade science class, a skidding wheel has less traction than a rolling one. 

[hook]

11 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:

Just how safe are mechanical brakes ? ? ?

Depends on the driver and how well he knows his vehicle and adjusts his speed according to driving and traffic conditions.   (Know your stopping distance).

For good well informed drivers, mechanical brakes are safe.

The most important part of the old cars with mechanical brakes is adjustment and proper operation of all rods and/or cables. As far as mechanical brakes in general, you must remember that all vehicles with drum air brakes are mechanical brakes, they're just pulled on by external air cylinders. The killer of all drum brakes is fade, whether they are mechanical operated or hydraulically applied. That gets down to the knowledge of the driver and whether or not he knows how to operate a vehicle with drum brakes in all situations.   

[nat]

8 minutes ago, Jack Bennett said:

I possibly misstated what I intended to say about the emergency brake on my 1923 Dodge Brothers Roadster.

 

8 minutes ago, Jack Bennett said:

the emergency brake is used as a helper for the foot brake,

     The Dodge foot/service brake actuates an external band on the brake drums.  The hand/emergency brake operates expending shoes inside the drum.  The rods are paralell and similar but they operate separate systems.

[nat]

3 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:

If I were 50 years younger I would be worried about forgetting something like that.

     Don't loose any sleep over that.  You've got a few years on me but I'm right there with you in the memory department. 

     Did I say that already?