1949 Imperial 7 Passenger Purchase thoughts

[B Jake Moran]

I am considering making an offer on a 1949 7 passenger non division window Imperial.  This is NOT the long wheel base Windsor.  The asking price from the seller was $10,000, but I feel I can get it for a bit less.     This is truly a rare long wheelbase car.  I like LWB 7 passenger cars.  

 

Chrysler "made" a total of 85 of these in 1949.  45 division window cars and 40 non division window cars.  

 

 The sellers are private, communicative.  I have a photo set.  For me, this would be a hand off to an Iowa based restoration shop, known to me, visited, familiar with West Peterson (who recommended it) with a total budget of around $85,000 (if needed).   

 

I completely understand - I will never get that back, etc.    I don't care.  I have always had a fascination with LWB cars, more so Cadillac 75 series.  There was a local to me central Iowa seller who collected at least one of every Cadillac 75from 1950 to 1961.   It was fun to go look at them, but his prices were unrealistic and the cars suffered from questionable storage.  

 

But I could touch them, sit in some, and just think about who purchased them new, especially in Iowa.  

 

Later, I had a Collectible Automobile which featured the 1949 to 1952 Imperials.   They had a couple of photos of these cars, the LWB cars, and they are well proportioned and impressive. 

 

From the Internet, an article from one of the 85 --

 

These cars were shipped in prime to Derham in Philadelphia who did the interior and paint. All MOPARs of this period are enameled except this model which is lacquered. 

 

Only three dealers handled the Crown Imperials (New York, Washington, and Los Angeles), and no literature or advertising was produced. They did print an owner's manual for this model.

 

So this at least represents an opportunity to get an interesting, significant car with no market upside.  I am not sure when these come to market but like the 75 series, there has to be little interest.  

 

This is an interesting read on one -

 

Chrysler Crown Imperial (popsgarage.com)

 

 

 

 

[Walt G]

The Derham Body Company took on a Chrysler franchise in the very late 1930s , they sold Chryslers, Dodges etc. and it gave them easier access to have a chassis to modify factory catalog coachwork or create their own from the cowl back . They did several Imperial conv sedans in 1942 and just post war at least two Dodge customs with extensive roof modifications . I did a story on the Dodges decades ago for Special Interest Autos. I also met a fellow in the mid 1970s at a car show at Sagamore Hill, Teddy Rossevelt's home in Oyster Bay Cove on long island. In  conversation ( I had my Derham Franklin there) he told me he  worked for Derham in the early 1950s when in college. He saw them modify cars, and by the time Castro took over Cuba said that Derham was modifying limousines to make them bomb proof for terrorist attacks. Chain mail being placed on the bare floor then padded and carpet laid over that.  I have so much information, so many facts  all belong in print to share, but AACA magazine has no room so it will not be in that publication.

[alsancle]

That is a neat car.  I would need to know what you are planning on getting done for 85K before blessing the project.   If you are going to do paint/interior/chrome/mechanical  that is probably not happening within that budget.

[B Jake Moran]

6 minutes ago, alsancle said:

That is a neat car.  I would need to know what you are planning on getting done for 85K before blessing the project.   If you are going to do paint/interior/chrome/mechanical  that is probably not happening within that budget.

I have sent a follow up email to the sellers and hope to simply talk to them.  It's an 8 hour drive away, so that is 2 days.  

 

So - to answer your question - the drivetrain would be rebuilt no question.  But what if it is below 50,000 miles?  Perhaps much less?  

 

The window hydraulics are interesting.  The switches operate 6 windows not 4.  That certainly needs rebuilt.  

 

The interior likely needs completely redone, seats need redone and would be wool broadclothe.  Door panels and dash maybe just freshened.  

 

The kicker is the body and chrome/stainless.  I can live with a buff.   A lacquer repaint is $15,000 +.  

[alsancle]

3 minutes ago, B Jake Moran said:

I have sent a follow up email to the sellers and hope to simply talk to them.  It's an 8 hour drive away, so that is 2 days.  

 

So - to answer your question - the drivetrain would be rebuilt no question.  But what if it is below 50,000 miles?  Perhaps much less?  

 

The window hydraulics are interesting.  The switches operate 6 windows not 4.  That certainly needs rebuilt.  

 

The interior likely needs completely redone, seats need redone and would be wool broadclothe.  Door panels and dash maybe just freshened.  

 

The kicker is the body and chrome/stainless.  I can live with a buff.   A lacquer repaint is $15,000 +.  

 

That is a 50k car to paint, minimum, for a decent job or you will wish you didn't paint it.   If you stick with mechanical and interior then you can stay within budget.  But be warned you will spend 2x what you think you are going to spend.

[m-mman]

Limos and long wheelbase cars.  Body and paint will be expensive BUT what is surprisingly expensive is the interiors. 

 

They are way more complex than one would imagine.  There are cubbys, jump seats, sometimes 2 layers of carpet. (rainy days and dry days) Upholstering the divider is not easy. (just removing it can be a pain) Everything is custom made so every scrap of cloth must be "tailored".  Convertibles (even in leather) can be cheaper and easier than a limo type car. 

 

The hydraulic window system is not "interesting", it is something to be avoided if possible. 

Typically it operates by having the hydraulic pump push the window up and it is held up by electric valves retaining the pressure. To lower the window the switch opens the valve and the pressure is released and the window drops. ANY leakage and the window drops down. (FYI the systems were typically filled with brake fluid) 

 

It is hideously expensive to restore. There are no shortcuts. You must open up every door, pull up all the floor coverings and replace and flush EVERY line (some are metal, some are rubber), remove and clean/rebuild every hydraulic cylinder, clean every electric valve and of course open, clean and restore the single hydraulic pump for the system.   To learn about them ask the folks who have restored 1949 Cadillacs (convertibles and Coupe de Villes) They have had to restore hydraulic window systems. Ask them what it cost. 

 

Then be advised long wheelbase cars are worth LESS than shorter (standard) cars.  Way, less. 

 

My experience: I have a 1971 Cadillac ambulance and a 58 Imperial-Ghia limo currently. I have owned a 71 Fleetwood 75 a 66 Cadillac flower car and a 55 Cadillac ambulance.  They dont fit into any regular parking place. Not a garage, not a barn, not the spaces in a warehouse. People LOOK at them, admire them but when it is time to sell one, they walk away. "Nope, its nice but I dont have place to put it". 

 

I am soon to be retired and I do plan to "put together"?    "Fix up"?   my 58 Ghia. . . . .

BUT it will NEVER be "restored".  There isnt enough money in my life to do it "properly". Limo type cars are the biggest money pits imaginable.  Be wary, very wary. 

[Barney Eaton]

I don't know how Chrysler kept track of these long wheelbase cars. 

According to a couple of sources.... 1949 Chrysler had a Royal (185 made) & Windsor (373 & 73 made) with 139 1/2 wheelbase.

Imperial with 131 1/2 wheelbase

Crown Imperial with 139 1/2 wheelbase.

                                                                

 

[8E45E]

38 minutes ago, B Jake Moran said:

The window hydraulics are interesting.  The switches operate 6 windows not 4.  That certainly needs rebuilt.   

Yes, the quarter windows behind the rear doors also raise & lower.  There should be two switches each above the armrests below the quarter windows.

 

Craig

[Matt Harwood]

Jesus, if your budget is $95,000 buy something significant or with a top that goes down that's already finished.

[alsancle]

5 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Jesus, if your budget is $95,000 buy something significant or with a top that goes down that's already finished.

 

I think he understands he is flushing the money.   I will say this: you will have the only one at any show you go to.  I've never seen one in person. 

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

That is a 50k car to paint, minimum, for a decent job or you will wish you didn't paint it.   

In Pennsylvania at least, a show-quality paint job

may cost $15,000, as Jake says.  That would be a

job that nearly any owner would be proud to show. 

 

If all paint jobs were $50,000, most cars would languish

and the hobby would die quickly.

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[alsancle]

12 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

In Pennsylvania at least, a show-quality paint job

may cost $15,000, as Jake says.  That would be a

job that nearly any owner would be proud to show. 

 

If all paint jobs were $50,000, most cars would languish

and the hobby would die quickly.

 

John,   the materials alone to paint that car will cost you 15k.   Not to mention the 500 hours worth of work.

[58L-Y8]

Although its laudable to want to restore and preserve this rare 1949 Chrysler Crown Imperial 8-passenger sedan without considering later financial remuneration, do take all the constructive provisos being stated very seriously before acting.   Because they had top-of-the-line model status, LWB sedans and limousines magnify all aspects of the standard wheelbase models when it comes to restorations:  metalwork, paint, pot metal and steel chrome, upholstery, mechanical, etc.  Add on to these extras such as hydraulic windows, wood trim, partition windows all requiring special attention.  Specific to the 1949 through (iirc) 1956 Crown Imperials are equipped with Ausco-Lambert disk brakes.  Before taking on this project, you would do well to research the current resources for repair and parts availability of those unique brake systems.

 

For the budget you've stated, unless the 1949 Chrysler Crown Imperial is your ultimate be-all and end-all, set your sights on a rare LWB model that has already been wonderfully restored or expertly preserved, find it and buy it.  Then continue to maintain and enjoy it...while saving yourself considerable expense and grief.

 

 

[countrytravler]

1947 Desoto LWB Limo in our town. What history.

[countrytravler]

We sold this 37 Dodge LWB a couple of years ago.

[Matt Harwood]

Never mind that the finances don't add up--if you have that kind of money, NOTHING about that Chrysler adds up.

 

But if you absolutely MUST have a frumpy 7P Mopar thing, someone on Facebook is trying to GIVE this LWB Desoto away for free:

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10229297089990632&set=gm.3382434278658715&idorvanity=1560572637511564

 

[prewarnut]

I think the '49 is at least more impressive and stately than the later '56 7P Packard from another thread recently. Besides, one only has to imagine Ricardo Montalbán replying, "Yes that's my Chrysler Crown Imperial over there!" ...the leather wasn't invented yet😉 So I'd vote for the Chrysler. Perhaps it could be restored in stages.

[Walt G]

Hey, some of us geezers like "frumpy" 🤨

[countrytravler]

12 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Never mind that the finances don't add up--if you have that kind of money, NOTHING about that Chrysler adds up.

 

But if you absolutely MUST have a frumpy 7P Mopar thing, someone on Facebook is trying to GIVE this LWB Desoto away for free:

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10229297089990632&set=gm.3382434278658715&idorvanity=1560572637511564

 

If I was not sick, I would go grab it.

[B Jake Moran]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

Never mind that the finances don't add up--if you have that kind of money, NOTHING about that Chrysler adds up.

 

But if you absolutely MUST have a frumpy 7P Mopar thing, someone on Facebook is trying to GIVE this LWB Desoto away for free:

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10229297089990632&set=gm.3382434278658715&idorvanity=1560572637511564

 

Apples and oranges.  I appreciate your insight. 

[TTR]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 the materials alone to paint that car will cost you 15k.   Not to mention the 500 hours worth of work.

Exactly, especially if the final result is expected to look just like it did when new, i.e. Restoration to OEM quality and specification, which 90+ % of all restored cars won't qualify.

Edited January 6, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[junkyardjeff]

I had a 50 Windsor 8 pass sedan for many years and would like to have another some day.

[Akstraw]

It is a stately car; stunning when new, I would imagine.   You have sized up the situation well; it will never be worth what you put into it.  Ours is largely a hobby of passion, not profit.  If you have the passion, and you have the dollars, then go for it.  You only live once.  If you have the time, wait for a better one to come along.  A car restored by somebody else is nearly always cheaper than having it done professionally yourself.  Either way, I agree with the rule of thumb mentioned above:  “Take what you think it will cost to restore and double it.”  That will get you in the ballpark.   BTW, a year older, and you would be talking CCCA Classic, which carries some weight with a segment of the hobby.  Good luck!  “Live the passion!”

[RansomEli]

B Jake Moran,

 

If you ask people what they think, of course you'll get lots of advice to not buy the car.

Buying and restoring a car is not a logical act.

But:
    1. If you like the car and
    2. Have the money and
    3. Realize the restoration is going to cost more than you thought and
    3. Don't care what other people think...

Then:
    1. Buy the car and have it restored just the way you want and
    2. Drive the heck out of it and
    3. Post lots of pictures here on the forum.

Let us know what happens.

[8E45E]

Buy it because YOU like it.  Presumably, its YOUR money, and can spend it how you like.

 

Some of these comments remind of my mom & dad right after handing me my allowance for the week!!

 

Craig

[c49er]

It's sad the 1949-52 Chrysler Crown Imperial 145" long wheelbase cars don't get much respect.

So expensive to restore...not much love.

Please follow thru and give it a new rolling life!

...BTW those Ausco-Lambert  four wheel disc brakes will be very expensive to rebuild..

Parts to rebuild...naw..all rebuild work will have to be custom done by someone who lnows them.

 

[EmTee]

Measure your garage before you write the check... 

[63RedBrier]

Hi, Jake!  Have you seen the car in person?  If not, I would not make any offers until you do.  Why was it parked?  The bottom of the back seat looks rough, but the rest may just need a good cleaning/polish/wax.  It may be cheaper and more beneficial historically to preserve what is there.  Please keep us all posted as you move forward on this potential acquisition.  Greg

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

10 hours ago, RansomEli said:

B Jake Moran,

 

If you ask people what they think, of course you'll get lots of advice to not buy the car.

Buying and restoring a car is not a logical act.

But:
    1. If you like the car and
    2. Have the money and
    3. Realize the restoration is going to cost more than you thought and
    3. Don't care what other people think...

Then:
    1. Buy the car and have it restored just the way you want and
    2. Drive the heck out of it and
    3. Post lots of pictures here on the forum.

Let us know what happens.

 

   What he said with one difference.    I like "refurbish"  better than "restore".  Why?   Less expense, quicker to drive. You are going to drive, aren't you?

 

  Ben

[alsancle]

11 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Never mind that the finances don't add up--if you have that kind of money, NOTHING about that Chrysler adds up.

 

But if you absolutely MUST have a frumpy 7P Mopar thing, someone on Facebook is trying to GIVE this LWB Desoto away for free:

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10229297089990632&set=gm.3382434278658715&idorvanity=1560572637511564

 

 

Matt, the subject car is in much better shape.    I'm on board as long as painting it is not the plan.   Although, I would like Dave Coco or one of our other guys that knows to evaluate that interior.    Mechanical + interior cleanup is ok with me.   Too much else and I think it will be a sink hole.    

 

 

[alsancle]

4 minutes ago, 63RedBrier said:

Hi, Jake!  Have you seen the car in person?  If not, I would not make any offers until you do.  Why was it parked?  The bottom of the back seat looks rough, but the rest may just need a good cleaning/polish/wax.  It may be cheaper and more beneficial historically to preserve what is there.  Please keep us all posted as you move forward on this potential acquisition.  Greg

 

This.   Tatty and refurbished always looks better than not dead nuts factory restoration.   Many times restoration work that is "good enough" with interior and paint ends up being worse than leaving it alone.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Jake you already know the math on projects, and I would argue that even finished cars and pristine originals can hold surprises that involve unplanned spending.  Ok we all get that.  So my only bit of advice is a little different although maybe you are here already.

You mentioned in the past having gone through a lot of cars.  Where does this one stack up in that mix?  I would cull out the bottom 90% of makes and models and buy what will excite you in 5 years as well as now.  Even more critical with projects due to inherent time investment and they are harder to sell.  That might be a good litmus test. 

Of the dozen or so cars we have had in the past I might want 3 back, or look to acquire close enough replacements.  The others were fine but I wouldn't use up money, space vs. Using those resources on better alternatives.

Good luck of course!

[yachtflame]

As a known and somewhat dubious member here once told me, “instead of buying a car that you have to restore, buy one that someone else has already spent the money on. That way you can tinker on it while driving it!”

 While I enjoyed the restoration process of bringing my 1930 LaSalle back to life, I would’ve enjoyed driving it for those 4 years! I’m still tinkering with it and probably always will.

[alsancle]

I looked at it again.  More interior pictures would be nice.   The following plan is ok:

 

1.  Mechanical sorting - hopefully less than 10K.

2.  Tires mounted and balanced.

3.  Buff

4.  Nothing else.

 

I'm ok with that plan.   Any more than that and I say buy something else.

[K8096]

The front license plate on the subject car is from the late 1970s.   Is that the last time it was on the road?   Engine could very well be stuck if that’s the case.   

[Steve_Mack_CT]

54 minutes ago, K8096 said:

The front license plate on the subject car is from the late 1970s.   Is that the last time it was on the road?   Engine could very well be stuck if that’s the case.   

That would likely blow $10k in mechanical sorting out of the water!

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Just now, Steve_Mack_CT said:

That would likely blow $10k in mechanical sorting out of the water!

I could probably find a replacement engine in an old combine for that!

 

  Ben 

[B Jake Moran]

3 hours ago, 63RedBrier said:

Hi, Jake!  Have you seen the car in person?  If not, I would not make any offers until you do.  Why was it parked?  The bottom of the back seat looks rough, but the rest may just need a good cleaning/polish/wax.  It may be cheaper and more beneficial historically to preserve what is there.  Please keep us all posted as you move forward on this potential acquisition.  Greg

No, but I would not buy this one without going to see it in person.  

 

I appreciate Matt Harwoods perspective, as we all enjoy his comments, as well as Ed and many many others.  It's an 8 hour drive and I have NOT told my wife about this until I am more serious.  I received an email from the seller.  It is worth noting that the seller's "representative" is the wife on this car - 

 

Hi Bryan,

Yes the address is Bryan Ohio, Although we live closer to Farmer Ohio.

When my father and husband bought the car, they were given papers that said only 40 were made. 

For the mileage on the title, it says, 120,282. It is believed to be original miles. ( in the car it is only 20,282, we assume that is not correct) 

It has only been driven around the yard a few times in 1983. It was started and running last year.  

For the history, we don't really know much about it. When my father and husband bought it, In 1983 they bought it from Lowell Short. Lowell Short bought it in 1978 and the previous owner before that was Wayne L. Grime.

 

My husband doesn't think we need a phone call, but if you do, give me a time when you would want us to call you. We are busy Saturday until late afternoon. 

Our phone number is  (redacted by me), please leave a message and we will call you back. We don't answer if we don't know the number because of telemarketers.

 

Thank you,

Julie

[1937hd45]

What would it cost to move that car from A to B? 

[B Jake Moran]

My inclination is to pass, and my offer would be far less than $10,000.  But - with my sixties approaching and knowing my window is small to do a restoration, this car for me, and not Matt or others, checks a lot of boxes.  

 

As a Cadillac fan, I was also looking for a 1966 Coupe deVille project to hand over to the restoration shop, which by the way is located in Iowa and has a national reputation for quality and can do most anything.  

 

I located 2 nice 66 Coupe deVille projects on Facebook marketplace for $6,000 each.  These are solid complete cars needing everything.  One from Texas, the other from California, now located in surrounding states to Iowa.   

 

I think either one would cost $75,000 to restore.  Maybe a bit less because this shop only does what you ask and I am not looking for trophies.  

 

But for the Imperial LWB (I won't call it a division window Limousine) I get the LWB experience which I have wanted for at least 25 years.  I return what in the end will be a very nice representative to the "gene pool."  You get a significant Chrysler.  I don't consider it frumpy.  I have sat in and walked around many 1941-1949 75 and 67 series Cadillacs, and the styling is about the same.  

 

But in total they only made 85 of these, and I would be willing to bet there are maybe 15 left in any condition.  I don't necessarily care about "rarity" but I have owned some rare ones.  I owned and sold a 1975 Jaguar XJC 12 cylinder for example, one of very few made and left.   Well, I've owned in excess of 200 cars so I forget all of the interesting ones.  

 

Restored, this stately, frumpy limousine class Imperial would surely be welcomed at the Des Moines Concours, which is a goal, to be able to share the car with attendees.  It might be welcome at other venues but I don't run in those crowds.  

 

Matt is 100% correct in the understanding that the hobby still has millions of collector-specialty cars.  I paint with a broad brush when I look for cars, including C4 and C5 Corvettes which in convertible form would scratch an itch for sure.  

 

I don't have $30,000 for a collector car in walking around money, but as long as I stay employed for next 10 years, I will have cash flow and my bills for the restoration are as good as an installment loan.  

 

I have been given a green light by the restoration shop to being anything in up to about 1979 ish.  Trans Ams, Coupe deVilles, I considered a 55 Buick Century convertible with low miles and some of you know I pull the trigger very slowly.  

 

So I just need to make up my mind whether I want a generational car - for me that is about 1966 to 1978, or two, mix in a modern toy like a Corvette or Crossfire, or go deep state with something like this car.   

 

But thank you all for the encouragement and comments.