Franklin's wooden frames. I'd like to know which other cars used wood in the frame, especially post WWI

[Leif in Calif]

There's a discussion on this forum about Franklin's wooden frames. I'd like to know which other cars used wood in the frame, especially post WWI. Griff Borgeson's generally excellent book The Golden Age of the American Racing Car  claimed Duesenberg did this, but Randy Ema (who certainly would know) says that he's never seen it. 

[CarlLaFong]

Post WWII? Highly unlikely

Edited October 26, 2022 by CarlLaFong (see edit history)

[Leif in Calif]

20 minutes ago, CarlLaFong said:

Post WWII? Highly unlikely

World War One. But...there was the Marcos of the late 60's which used a wooden frame! 

[63RedBrier]

I believe, and please correct me if I am incorrect, Morgan of Great Britain, still uses wooden frames to this day!

[1912Staver]

Morgan chassis frame is steel. Flimsy , but 100 % steel.  Construction is much like a  T series MG or almost any 1920's American car. Here is one with much of the sheet metal removed.

 

 

 

 

 

[1912Staver]

47 minutes ago, Leif in Calif said:

World War One. But...there was the Marcos of the late 60's which used a wooden frame! 

 

Marcos is more or less a unit body but constructed with marine plywood.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Morgan bare frame, typical of all the Morgans , post war, right up to the V8 cars. Not much to them , the V8 frames are quite a bit stronger.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Jim Skelly]

that's pretty scary!

[Rusty_OToole]

Some American luxury cars had wooden body frames as late as 1939, later in Europe.

Wooden chassis frames with steel reinforcements were found in some smaller cars pre WW1. Brush even had a wooden axle. Stanley Steamers had wooden reaches or perches connecting the front and rear axle.

There may have been some one off or racing cars with wooden chassis rails like Bolster's Bloody Mary.

 

[Restorer32]

Important to distinguish between wooden body framing and wooden frame rails. Two entirely different things.

[hook]

23 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Important to distinguish between wooden body framing and wooden frame rails. Two entirely different things.

Yes, when they speak of Morgans having wood frames they're talking about body framing not chassis. Morgans still have wood body framing.

[Restorer32]

We rewooded a 1949 Bentley Sedanca Coupe by James Young that had a LOT of wood framing in the body.

[58L-Y8]

Wood, as a material choice for chassis frame rails was over with when Franklin began the changeover for their 128"wb 1928 models.    Composite body construction of steel or aluminum over wood frame structure continued into the mid-1930's for production cars, being gradually replaced with all-steel construction largely on high-volume, low-priced cars first.  The reason was the upfront investments in stamping presses, tooling and dies had to be amortized over a large number of units to make the change economically feasible.

 

Composite body construction continued in the low-volume, semi and full custom body business up to the advent of WWII for the remaining U.S. coachbuilders and much longer in European shops after WWII.

[Restorer32]

Even as late as 1958 some hearses and flower cars were metal over wood construction.

[Leif in Calif]

3 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Wood, as a material choice for chassis frame rails was over with when Franklin began the changeover for their 128"wb 1928 models.    Composite body construction of steel or aluminum over wood frame structure continued into the mid-1930's for production cars, being gradually replaced with all-steel construction largely on high-volume, low-priced cars first.  The reason was the upfront investments in stamping presses, tooling and dies had to be amortized over a large number of units to make the change economically feasible.

 

Composite body construction continued in the low-volume, semi and full custom body business up to the advent of WWII for the remaining U.S. coachbuilders and much longer in European shops after WWII.

In the 70's I was responsible for glass replacement the some Oshkosh snow removal trucks at the Truckee-Tahoe airport. The trucks were from the mid-60's and their wood framed doors was already deteriorating in that harsh environment. 

[Steve Braverman]

I have two wood-frame Franklins. The engineering is fascinating. i don't know of any other cars with wood chassis rails post WW1.

[CarlLaFong]

On 10/26/2022 at 12:21 PM, 63RedBrier said:

I believe, and please correct me if I am incorrect, Morgan of Great Britain, still uses wooden frames to this day!

Morgans have never had wooden frames Very common myth. Morgan bodies are wood framed but the chassis is steel

Edited November 5, 2022 by CarlLaFong (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Some interesting discussion and comments. However, there is a huge difference between wooden chassis frames and wooden body frames! Some people seem to be thinking this thread is one thing, while other people seem to think it is about the other.

Wooden body structure from the beginning and still in rare cases today was common beyond being common. Many early automobiles used bodies that except for hardware and upholstery were almost entirely wood. Sheet metal over wooden frame became the preferred method of construction for most automobiles well into the 1930s. European manufacturers continued the practice well past WWII due to manufacturing limitations in those countries because of the war over there.

 

Wooden chassis frames on the other hand are an entirely different situation.

I don't have accurate records to fallback on here? However, I know that over the past fifty years I have actually seen a few (very few!) cars other than Brush and Franklin with wooden chassis frames! And I have read about a couple others. Why, I have probably seen or heard of maybe seven or eight such cars in all those years! In those same fifty years I have probably personally seen fifty or more pre1902 chassis frames made out of steel. Some were steel tubing. A lot of early chassis frames were made of angle iron. Often such frames were interconnected with the body wood making a strong and lightweight whole. I am not sure when the first true channel iron frames were made, but I know it was quite early. I once saw an early frame made out of upper and lower angle irons riveted together to form a channel.

My believed to be about 1899 gasoline carriage has an angle iron frame made from angle iron produced by an early iron and steel foundry in the Eastern United states. Cambria iron and steel ceased to exist about 1915. The frame pieces are riveted together with carriage springs and steel wagon axles, the front axle forge and hammer welded to create a steerable front axle. The entire chassis and engine is very early, and the frame is steel. 

[PFitz]

The last of the Franklin wooden chassis frame rails - 1928 Series 12B, 119" wheelbase. Franklin called them "chassis sills". Same as a wood framed house or barn sits on sills. Only the side rails were wood - they were connected with steel cross members. Laminated from three plies of white ash.  Along with the full elliptic springs, one of the smoothest riding cars of that era.

 

The reason Franklin stuck with wood chassis is that wood does not transmit road shocks and noise like a steel chassis can. They finally had to switch to steel chassis (the 128" WB of that year) when it became hard to find enough good clear white ash to meet their ever-increasing production of the late 1920's. 

 

Paul

[Walt G]

thank you Paul, very well stated.

Walt

[Terry Harper]

Stanley used a wooden chassis for quite number of years. 

 

[Walt G]

And also full elliptic springs in the front and tube axle like Franklin too . Wow didn't know that or remember that . thanks Terry.. A good friend had a 1912 Stanley I used to ride in but the only thing I really remember was the letting off steam from the boiler and water intake.

[1937hd45]

Fun to watch this wood framed GN running around. Bob 

 

Goodwood - Video: This Aero-Engined GN-Jap Is The Wildest Ride Of All

[Leif in Calif]

Great video! Cars (and owners) like this are what make visiting the UK such a joy! 

[RAH]

If the original OP was referring to chassis wood, wasn't the early Brush running on wooden chassis rails?          And as was mentioned earlier many manufacturers used wood in the body designs including Ford and Early (' 16 to '23) Dodge Brothers closed cars both Sedan and Coupe were wooden design infrastructure. My '22 DB type A Sedan is all wood interior body structure with Budd steel panels. It was the last year for same. Actually the '23 closed cars used mostly BUDD steel in the body EXCEPT above the belt line around the upper rear from door to door including rear window. That section was covered in roofing material. 

[Walt G]

Structural wood work for cars bodies was the way all car manufacturers or coach builders made/framed out the bodies. This was a design carry over from the horse drawn carriage and coach era. Steel or cast brackets were used for strength at joints or places were vertical met horizontal pieces and would see more strain from use ( door posts for example)

8 hours ago, RAH said:

And as was mentioned earlier many manufacturers used wood in the body designs

Just about if not all all manufacturers used wood, and that way of construction lasted longer in Europe pre WWII era then it did in the USA where body companies ( Briggs , Fisher  etc) took the time and expense to have huge stamping equipment designed and made for all steel bodies.) The focus of this topic is on vehicle chassis that used wood not steel.

[Terry Harper]

There are a number of trade publications dealing with body construction and design that make fascinating reading. A number of which are available through Google Books.

 

 

[JRA]

Only white ash could be used in these Franklin frame rails? What are the unique properties this wood offers compared to others?

[Steve Braverman]

22 minutes ago, JRA said:

Only white ash could be used in these Franklin frame rails? What are the unique properties this wood offers compared to others?

Ash is lightweight and strong. 

[Mark Gregush]

Also flexible. This might help.

Wood Strength (workshopcompanion.com)

[Tom Boehm]

I have heard ash was used in auto bodies because it is "shock proof".  The same reason they make baseball bats of ash. (but they still break)

[Terry Harper]

White Ash is excellent for steam bending and forming as well. Light, tight, straight grain and able to absorb a lot of punishment. 
 

unfortunately, like the once stately Elm, At least here in the northeast, Ash are fast falling victim to invasive insects and diseases - in this case the Emerald Ash Borer.

 

as for other automobiles that used a wood main frame similar to Franklin the interesting but short lived Parenti comes to mind.  

[JRA]

So white ash was used in both chassis and body frame, not only in Franklins but in the other makes of that era. And wooden artillery wheels, have they also spokes made of ash?

[mechanician]

Franklin was among the last, but not the end:

 

https://hardwooddistributors.org/postings/the-splinter-wooden-supercar

[Steve Braverman]

43 minutes ago, JRA said:

So white ash was used in both chassis and body frame, not only in Franklins but in the other makes of that era. And wooden artillery wheels, have they also spokes made of ash?

Most wood wheel spokes are hickory. 

[Leif in Calif]

Grif Borgeson's book "The Golden Age of America Racing" claims that early Duesenberg racing cars had a hardwood insert in their aluminum frames. Randy Ema, who would know, says it wasn't so. Borgeson was not one to make things up so I wonder what caused him to say that. 

[8E45E]

I believe Freestone & Webb-bodied Rolls-Royces used wood as extensions for the R-R supplied chassis.   A few of the frame extenders may have been wood (oak?), as well as the trunk floor which sometime extended beyond the rear frame rails.   Whether this qualifies as part of the steel frame or not is open to debate.

 

Craig

[8E45E]

It appears Middleby also used wood frame rails:

Craig

[Avanti Bill]

I always heard that one of the reasons there were so many more early Fords than any other marque was that Ford was the first to get rid of wood for the body frames.  Of course Ford produced a lot more cars than even Chevrolet so that has something to do with the numbers.  Way back when the wood framing gave way the car was just junked and didn't survive well enough to be restored at some later date.  I have also been told that Ford set out to defeat the carpenters union early in his career. 

[gwells]

12 hours ago, Avanti Bill said:

Of course Ford produced a lot more cars than even Chevrolet so that has something to do with the numbers. 

Actually, Bill, I believe that's not 100% accurate.

Here's the best table I could find that I didn't have to remake. Doesn't show production numbers, but I think it gets the point across.

 

 

Ford clearly dominated sales through the first half of the '20s.

But most people don't realize that Chevy actually outsold Ford for two out of four of the Model A years. And that Chevy outsold Ford in 1927, 1932, and 1933, too. Ford fought back during the middle '30s, but after that Chevy took over until WWII. From 1926 to 1941, inclusive, Chevy was tops in sales nine times and Ford just seven.

One personal experience many years ago suggests those who target the wood-framed bodies that Ford largely abandoned by the mid-to-late '20s as the reason old Fords of this era have survived at a much higher rate than Chevys are on the right track.

In my later HS years, I bought a 1926 (IIRC) Chevrolet sedan that was essentially complete, out of a guy's garage near Nashville, for $80. This would had been in the very early '70s, perhaps very late '60s. Every single piece of body structural wood on the car was extremely rotten and all the nailed-on external sheet metal body panels were literally falling off.

 

It's been almost 55 years, thus my memory is a little fuzzy, but I think I quickly sold the car to someone else for $200, without having to actually move the car first. I think I hleped guy who bought it from me take it to his place.

 

To this day, it remains the most profit, percentage-wise, I ever made on a car I bought and then later resold. LOL.