Pierce-Arrow today, parts tomorrow.

[TAKerry]

Ed, I fully respect your opinion concerning your taste with automobiles and think that most of us on here share a similar thought,  just different types of cars. I too like all old cars but have my particular interest. I know I will never be in the super car sandbox so I honestly could care less about ferraris, lamborghinis etc. I love pre war cars and would like to have one some day. I do have to say that belonging to this forum has opened my eyes a great deal concerning running out and getting the first one with a shiny paint job. Guys like 50's car and could care less about 60's etc. Heck, the majority on here probably dont think my 70's car should even be in the aaca.  Seeing you systematically dismantle this car is shocking at first to someone like myself that knows nothing about them. But I understand completely why you do so and fully support the endeavor to keep another guys PA on the road. Guys like you are necessary to the hobby. Keep up the good work. I enjoy seeing the behind the scenes work going on to keep old cars on the road. Restoration pics are all over the place, but this is the first time I have seen a dismantling being done.

[SC38dls]

Now that’s what we call a frame off job!  
dave s 

[nickelroadster]

Your shop sure looks clean Ed.  You must be sweeping up as you go.  No Snap On tools?

[SC38dls]

3 minutes ago, nickelroadster said:

Your shop sure looks clean Ed.  You must be sweeping up as you go.  No Snap On tools?

Don’t tell him that I’m trying to get him to hire me as a gopher, sweeper and ballast to keep his test drives balanced. If he thinks the garage is clean he will make me pay for lunch AND breakfast!  
dave s 

[carbking]

Looks like a case of rattle-cans in your choice of color, and a J.C. Whitney interior kit would be enough for a complete restoration!  

 

Jon

[edinmass]

3 hours ago, nickelroadster said:

Your shop sure looks clean Ed.  You must be sweeping up as you go.  No Snap On tools?

 

 

That's the shop up north........

[AHa]

It used to be that the old car hobby was about the cars. People bought cars they found interesting and restored them in their home garages for the love of the car. Restoration cost was not a concern and were not tallied or kept account of. Then, slowly, over time, antique cars went up in value, and became investments and it became important to weigh the cars value against the restoration cost. This is where the phrase too expensive to restore comes from. Ed lives in this world. The pebble beach world is primarily about investment cars and value is constantly weighed against restoration costs but not all the hobby is driven by these concerns. There are still people paying way more money to have cars restored than they will ever be worth for the love of the car.

 

The present Pierce would be a huge undertaking to restore. It appears to have been a very solid car needing a complete restoration. The floor pans were solid, not rusted out. It would take a home shop 4-15 years to finish the car and once it was torn down, the likelihood of it getting put back together goes down with each passing year. Let's face it, stuff happens. The current Pierce may well be worth more money for parts than it is as a complete car that needs restoration. Its a sad state of affairs.

Edited April 15, 2022 by AHa (see edit history)

[Den41Buick]

What a beautiful old Pierce Arrow.

[alsancle]

26 minutes ago, AHa said:

It used to be that the old car hobby was about the cars. People bought cars they found interesting and restored them in their home garages for the love of the car. Restoration cost was not a concern and were not tallied or kept account of. Then, slowly, over time, antique cars went up in value, and became investments and it became important to weigh the cars value against the restoration cost. This is where the phrase too expensive to restore comes from. Ed lives in this world. The pebble beach world is primarily about investment cars and value is constantly weighed against restoration costs but not all the hobby is driven by these concerns. There are still people paying way more money to have cars restored than they will ever be worth for the love of the car.

 

The present Pierce would be a huge undertaking to restore. It appears to have been a very solid car needing a complete restoration. The floor pans were solid, not rusted out. It would take a home shop 4-15 years to finish the car and once it was torn down, the likelihood of it getting put back together goes down with each passing year. Let's face it, stuff happens. The current Pierce may well be worth more money for parts than it is as a complete car that needs restoration. Its a sad state of affairs.

 

I'm not disagreeing with your basic point.  But I would point out that restoration costs have gone up 10x in the last 40 years.   You could hire a mechanic or machinist to help you part time for next to nothing.  Those guys don't exist anymore.

 

 

[1912Staver]

It looked to me the foremost problem on this unfortunate old girl was the wood. See any of Ron Hausmann's Kissel threads to see what a persistent, non - professional woodworker can accomplish. Ron's Gibraltar Sedanette was way worse than this Pierce. Hats off to Ron, his starting point could have easily been judged  " too far gone to restore " . But instead a rare and unusual car is still with us.

Edited April 15, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Flivverking]

We gave up on the wonderfull PA automobiles  years ago.

 You had to be a snooty snoot and had to con and  weave your way into clicks,which is near impossible if your middle class or less ,unless your a good classic huckster..

  But..I managed Dusenberg friends..That should say something.

  

[Buffalowed Bill]

What saddens me is that this car represents one of the most special driving cars of the Classic Era. It's just too bad that many reading this will never be able to experience driving this car or even ridding in it. Regardless of what you might think of the styling, a ride in one would make you a believer. 

[AHa]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

But I would point out that restoration costs have gone up 10x in the last 40 years. 

Its called inflation. I can remember when land sold for $250. per acre but those days are long gone too. People used to make a lot less money and were happy. Now, everybody wants to be a millionaire overnight. Yea, you can't get mechanics to work on Saturday for little or nothing; I can't even get friends to work for nothing. Times have changed. This used to be about a hobby, now, it seems like everything is driven by money. It's not entirely true but seems like the lions share.

[ron hausmann]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

It looked to me the foremost problem on this unfortunate old girl was the wood. See any of Ron Hausmann's Kissel threads to see what a persistent, non - professional woodworker can accomplish. Ron's Gibraltar Sedanette was way worse than this Pierce. Hats off to Ron, his starting point could have easily been judged  " too far gone to restore " . But instead a rare and unusual car is still with us.

All,

    Wood working isn’t as tough to do as you might imagine. But you have to like it. One cannot afford to buy it for a wood car and make any money. You have to enjoy it, like fishing. 

    I use oak and maple for my cars because these materials keep their shape and don’t dent. I have a couple decades of wood tools accumulated from trimming out two houses myself. And retired, I have tons of time.
   That Sedanlette pictured below easily took 2000 hours of my time woodworking, perhaps another 800 hours for everything else. But remember,  it has two tops and a doubled-body for this unique, rare car.
   If you price me at $75 per hour, and add $30,000 for paint, engine, nickel, upholstery, etc,, that car “cost” $240,000. Its worth perhaps $80,000 - $100,000 on a good day with an exceptional buyer. (Not for sale).

   Your Pierce isn’t that hard to do the wood on. But it will ultimately be economically unwise unless you do it yourself for “free” as I do..

    Ron Hausmann P.E.
   

[Larry Schramm]

Nice work Ron.

[edinmass]

So, Pierce Arrow’s have different wood construction. It’s machined with fitted splayed finger joints, glued, screwed, and…….graphite type canvas between everything to prevent squeaks……….so it’s much more like fine cabinetry……..not impossible but probably three times the labor of more conventional construction. I don’t have photos I can post unfortunately. If you have ever worked on Brewster, Rollston, Brunn, and some Murphy bodies you will get what I mean. So wooding a Pierce is basically like doing custom coachwork wood, not the normal construction you see in 95 percent of the cars. My factory Pierce bodies are actually better built than my LaBaron custom coachwork Pierce cars I have owned………a factory Pierce body is totally silent, absolutely no rattles or squeaks. Most custom coachwork can’t come close. Certain custom builders woodwork was only average……lap joints, butt joints, splices………Pierce factory bodies had door hinges with pins, bronze bushings, and grease fittings standard on all their cars. To put it simply Piece factory coachwork is better than most custom coachwork. One off bodies from auto shows are usually rattle traps, with all sorts of strange things you wouldn’t expect. I could give a two hour talk about construction methods, and the hardware they used. All fun stuff. Long story short…….Pierce wood will cost about twice what a factory Packard body would…….if you choose to duplicate what was there originally.  👍👍👍
 

PS- as far as material, ash is the standard in the industry. Plywood cam in by 1929 in small areas for nailers in the vanity’s and dome lights. Every is not always as it seems…..we have a car that is a one of…….made of California redwood. They also made redwood plywood for it, as that is what the customer ordered. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Ron’s comments are spot on……..you got to want to do it, and like doing it. Wood is half skill, half art, and half doing it over till you get it right. Open car doors are easier………….large Convertible Victoria door with glass that are four inches thick, and have three or four piano hinges are insane. Door tracks, door skins, strange hardware, rolled edges, ect, ect, ect……….so much also depends on the era……….a V-16 Cadillac Fleetwood Town Car Cabriolet with double suicide doors with bronze door pillars that are recessed into the wood is a skill set that is beyond insane. Then tin knocking with the nails, rolled edges, ect………wood is more than just wood. Look at his diamond floor panels he made from scratch. None of it is easy. Personally wood is the one part of car restoration I absolutely dread……I’m not good at it, it’s difficult, and without lots of experience……..I probably end up making the same piece three or four times before I get something I can live with. Give me an engine to line bore any day. The guys who do good woodwork seem to love it………they are a special breed like painters and chromes…….hard, difficult work, that takes a toll on body and mind. 

[George K]

Nothing to lament. It’s your car and you can do what you decide is right. All the banter about history and sorrow is misplaced. Your experience is unique and well thought out. It leads you to recycle. Thanks again for opening your doors to expose the truth about the business of old cars. You have flourished by your hard work and decisions. Best regards. George 

[Buffalowed Bill]

1 hour ago, George K said:

Nothing to lament. It’s your car and you can do what you decide is right. All the banter about history and sorrow is misplaced. Your experience is unique and well thought out. It leads you to recycle. Thanks again for opening your doors to expose the truth about the business of old cars. You have flourished by your hard work and decisions. Best regards. George 

I disagree with the tenor of your statement. I read through the responses and I find few that even hint to a wrong course of action. To me it's more like saying a prayer over a grave of a loved one. Nobody heals without the expression of sorrow. Like elegizing the departure of the Pierce, we have the right and the duty to pay homage to it's history, longevity and give a narrative regarding why some of us think that it was special. Accepting the inevitability of it's recycling has nothing to do with the celebration of what it was.  

[George K]

It’s just a car. It’s Ed’s property not a loved one. You don’t know me and please stop comparing a car to a person. Are scrapyards murders. Please.

[1912Staver]

I always default to the notion that we are just the caretakers, great cars transcend the ownership of any individual . I think we can all agree that this Pierce was , and perhaps even could have been once again , a great car. I find it a bit counterintuitive that it made no sense to restore it because it was made with special , extremely high quality woodwork techniques. 

 But yes , at the end of the day it was Ed's car.  I like P.A.'s very much, but not to the extent of wanting to own a later 1930's example. Especially one that was located thousands of miles away. And I remain primarily a brass and early Nickle guy. 

Ashes to ashes, rust to rust

[3macboys]

12 hours ago, edinmass said:

Looks like you have a young apprentice hard at work?  

[BobinVirginia]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

So, Pierce Arrow’s have different wood construction. It’s machined with fitted splayed finger joints, glued, screwed, and…….graphite type canvas between everything to prevent squeaks……….so it’s much more like fine cabinetry……..not impossible but probably three times the labor of more conventional construction. I don’t have photos I can post unfortunately. If you have ever worked on Brewster, Rollston, Brunn, and some Murphy bodies you will get what I mean. So wooding a Pierce is basically like doing custom coachwork wood, not the normal construction you see in 95 percent of the cars. My factory Pierce bodies are actually better built than my LaBaron custom coachwork Pierce cars I have owned………a factory Pierce body is totally silent, absolutely no rattles or squeaks. Most custom coachwork can’t come close. Certain custom builders woodwork was only average……lap joints, butt joints, splices………Pierce factory bodies had door hinges with pins, bronze bushings, and grease fittings standard on all their cars. To put it simply Piece factory coachwork is better than most custom coachwork. One off bodies from auto shows are usually rattle traps, with all sorts of strange things you wouldn’t expect. I could give a two hour talk about construction methods, and the hardware they used. All fun stuff. Long story short…….Pierce wood will cost about twice what a factory Packard body would…….if you choose to duplicate what was there originally.  👍👍👍
 

PS- as far as material, ash is the standard in the industry. Plywood cam in by 1929 in small areas for nailers in the vanity’s and dome lights. Every is not always as it seems…..we have a car that is a one of…….made of California redwood. They also made redwood plywood for it, as that is what the customer ordered. 

Finally! 
A very detailed description of why these are such difficult restorations. Metal work is straight forward with heat and distortion. The addition of wood and fitment to the steel is a complication that really is a lost art. 
This is definitely the most informative description of wooden body structures I’ve read. 
 

Wood can be done, but done correctly is an art

Edited April 16, 2022 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

It’s Ed’s car, he offered it at a reasonable price to a number of people looking for a project that all passed. What is he supposed to do, hold on to it until someone wants to buy it? He has a working business that I’m sure runs on cash flow just like any other business. He has a method to keep that cash flow moving and helping other projects get the parts they need instead of just sitting in garages unfinished. If any of you wanted the car why didn’t you start a thread saying so. You all know Ed is one of the people that knows where to find these cars and that he has offered to help people buy prewar cars so why didn’t you call him?  It amazes me people complain about what someone else does with their property but won’t step up to the plate to put their money where their mouth is. 
Ed, thank you for starting this post it has been interesting seeing your detailed process of saving as many parts as possible from a parts car. 
dave s 

[BobinVirginia]

I’m thinking if Ed keeps at it he’s gonna go far in the old car biz 

[Bryan G]

When I first glanced at the photos I thought, "hmm, what a shame, I could have made a driver out of that." But as I looked closer I realized what I would have ended up with would be a clap-trap beater, and to get it to that point would cost me $$$$ and when I was done the car might not be worth any more than when I started. 

 

When I'm not tinkering on an old car, I'm usually tinkering on an old radio. There is a particular model that I can sometimes find for $15. Spend weeks repairing it, and maybe $100 worth of parts and materials, and I can have a set worth $75. Or, I've repeatedly proved, I can part it out in 30 minutes and sell everything on eBay for $75. I did 3 or 4 of these in a row and get this: no two parts went to the same guy. Those "beater" radios went on to save/improve around 20 other sets. Now, move some decimal points around and you have the car hobby...

[JV Puleo]

The fact that there is a market for these parts proves that that there a a lot of PA cars surviving and there is a need for the parts. Where else are you going to find them? I'd much rather see a car like this broken up by someone who will see the parts recycled than as a rotting parts car out behind someone's garage with only a handful of the parts ever used.

 

If this were an extremely rare car there would be no point in breaking it up...who would you sell the parts to?

 

That said, I'm put off by the constant din of "underwater". I don't do this to make a profit and, frankly, I get the feeling from the endless repetition of that mantra that many here think that a project is only worth doing if you do. The fact is, if that had been an early 20 HP RR, in that condition for $9500, I'd have been all over it! (I'm too old now to do a PI or Ghost).

Edited April 16, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

I am not sure "enjoy" would be the right word? But I am following this thread with interest.

Drifting.

I don't like it? But I came to terms years ago, that this isn't the same world I was born into. Not just times? Or technology? But people have changed a lot over the past fifty years. And a lot of the changes began even before then.

 

Fewer, a LOT fewer, people today seriously restore antique automobiles than did forty or fifty years ago! On the other hand, so many restorations today are so much higher quality than was usually done those same decades ago! An interesting dichotomy.

Thirty or forty years ago? If I had had a bit more money and time to work on things, I might have considered a car like this one was a few weeks ago? But that ship has sailed. My 1915 model T runabout was in much worse condition when I started working on it? However even a brass era model T is a tremendously easier car to restore than is any Pierce Arrow! And I sadly have three or four more worthwhile restoration projects waiting for me to finish what I am working on so that I can hopefully get them done in whatever time I have left. A couple of them I would like to move on to someone else if I could only find someone able and willing to take them on and do them reasonably right. However, those people are few and far between these days.

 

Reality can be a bitter pill to swallow. We cannot save them all. And some cars simply may not make sense, even forgetting most of the expense involved. I have re-wooded a few simple earlier cars, the most complicated being my 1915 T runabout. I found I did enjoy the task. I could probably have done a Pierce Arrow a decade or two ago (if I had had more time to do so?). However, there is that "reality" again.

[George K]

6 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

I am not sure "enjoy" would be the right word? But I am following this thread with interest.

Drifting.

I don't like it? But I came to terms years ago, that this isn't the same world I was born into. Not just times? Or technology? But people have changed a lot over the past fifty years. And a lot of the changes began even before then.

 

Fewer, a LOT fewer, people today seriously restore antique automobiles than did forty or fifty years ago! On the other hand, so many restorations today are so much higher quality than was usually done those same decades ago! An interesting dichotomy.

Thirty or forty years ago? If I had had a bit more money and time to work on things, I might have considered a car like this one was a few weeks ago? But that ship has sailed. My 1915 model T runabout was in much worse condition when I started working on it? However even a brass era model T is a tremendously easier car to restore than is any Pierce Arrow! And I sadly have three or four more worthwhile restoration projects waiting for me to finish what I am working on so that I can hopefully get them done in whatever time I have left. A couple of them I would like to move on to someone else if I could only find someone able and willing to take them on and do them reasonably right. However, those people are few and far between these days.

 

Reality can be a bitter pill to swallow. We cannot save them all. And some cars simply may not make sense, even forgetting most of the expense involved. I have re-wooded a few simple earlier cars, the most complicated being my 1915 T runabout. I found I did enjoy the task. I could probably have done a Pierce Arrow a decade or two ago (if I had had more time to do so?). However, there is that "reality" again.

I can relate to your sentiments which are well spoken. All things and people age out. For quite awhile I have felt like one of the last of the Mohicans. Glad I appeared in time to be able to live the life I was destined for. Never underestimate human spirit. Regards, George.

[Alex D.]

Eight years ago, I acquired a 32 Cadillac V12. It looked to be in worse condition than Ed’s Pierce Arrow. The Cad had been stored in a garage for the last 50 years. The wood body frame was 90% solid. Rust was limited to the bottom of three doors. Fenders were dented, running boards were trash, all chrome had left the building, Glass and interior ratted. The V12 had a broken piston and severely scored cylinder. I was advised to run from this project and run fast. Me, not good at following good advice took on this project. In hindsight, I think this should of became a parts car.  Where do you draw the line as a parts car or project car?

 

 

Eight years ago

 

Eight Days ago

 

 

[Larry Schramm]

Nice transformation

[63RedBrier]

Hi, Alex!  Thank you for saving your beautiful Cadillac!  WELL DONE!  You drew the line perfectly...

[Dandy Dave]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:07 PM, edinmass said:

Japanese? Post war? It’s hard to explain to people how much of a pre war guy I am. I like and find all cars interesting. A GTO250 and a 66 Ford Mustang are the same to me. Doesn’t make me right. I’m very narrow in my car interests. I had a very large modern repair shop for decades. Old cars were my relaxation. Loud hot rod type cars, race cars, just don’t float my boat. Early brass or a Model J with a cut out making thunder……fantastic. It’s a strange little world I live in. And I like it. Driving this years special Ferrari or Lambo…….zero interest. What I like probably wouldn’t interest 85 percent of the general car guys. 
 

I resemble that remark. 😜 You don't have to be crazy to do this, but it sure helps. 😵 🤪 Dandy Dave!

[1912Staver]

With regards to the " put your money where your mouth is " comment , I did just that with my Staver basket case project. A well known collector was contemplating buying it as a parts car for one of his cars { not a Staver } that use Teetor Hartley power. There was enough value in the package to justify the asking price . The engine parts he wanted , plus the value of the rear end { same as a Michigan 40 }, the Warner gear, outside shift, 3 speed selective trans.  plus other various brass era parts parts that were part of the package. Only real hold up was transport, the car was close to me , but a long ways away from his location.

 I had been sitting on the fence for a few months about buying it, but as soon as I heard it was probably going to be bought and broken up for parts I knew it was now or never. Needless to say , it came home with me.

[edinmass]

So many areas to comment on. One thing that is hard for most here is perspective. Another is values…….both financial and historical. I remember as clear as day the first time I had ever seen a Pierce 12 as a young guy….I was 20 years old, in school, and broke. I vowed I would own one some day. I did, I bought a parts car…….of the year and series I wanted. I bought it sight unseen. The Pierce had rust, wood rot, suffered a small fire, had a bullet hole it in, was incomplete, and a sad excuse for a parts car…………here is how it looked three years after I bought it. CCCA 100 point car. If I had the money I dumped into it in 1990 dollars in the market, today I would have 2.5 million dollars……..instead I have a car that I have owned, driven, enjoyed, and shared with countless people. I have just over 300k in 1990 dollars in it. It won’t bring 200k today. (Maybe not even 100.) So what……..I don’t care……I will own it another 25 or more years if I am lucky. This car brought me all over the globe, made countless friends, and brought me life experiences that can not be described. Some say I wasted my money, others think I’m smart. All I know is I have no regrets on my life and the choices I made. I only have a few things left in life that bring me joy. I did the bucket list thing twice thirty years ago before it was popular. I met President Regan, Clint Eastwood, did the grand tour of Europe twice, have had great family and friends in my life, built a home to my desire, and pissed through much of the money I have earned……………so far I consider it a life well lived on my terms. I intend to die broke. With luck, the check to the undertaker will bounce. Today…..all I care about is my family and friends……..and playing with early cars. Some think it’s sad…….works well for me. Many here see a Pierce Arrow as a rare and unreachable car…….as a kid I did also. Today I see them as everyday items in my life. Nothing special about any one particular car……….I find the cars history and engineering fascinating all these years later. I no longer look on them with the wonder and dazzle of a boy. They are just another car. There are countless interesting and unusual cars. My Intrest is now in the asinine obscure stuff that most people have never seen or heard of……..like my 16 Valve Four White. Driving a sleeve valve eight that runs and drives well…………how many people here have ever done that? The hobby has led me down a strange path……one that I thoroughly enjoy. Most think I’m nuts……….all I can say is I greet each day with a smile and enthusiasm at 56 years old………I can’t think of many people in my age bracket that look forward to each day like I do. This week I have had visitors from all over…..AJ, George Cole, Hollywood big wigs, and hard working car mechanics. Next week it will probably be a Senator or Governor, a waitress at Dennys, and a New York Times best selling author. In June, no one will stop by, and I will be alone in the shop with a car……also fantastic fun. All I care about is enjoying my time I have left……….and I’m doing ok so far in my opinion. 
 

The cut up Pierce in this thread was not a parts car. It could have been bought multiple times by many people. They all passed.  Let’s look at the numbers.

 

Round trip of 1800 miles to pick it up. Buy the car. Buy the fuel at five bucks a gallon. Pay for the truck and trailer. Pay the tolls……over 200 dollars. Pay for the hotel, food, phone……..and then let’s talk about our time. I can easily make 150 an hour fixing cars, and in Palm Beach, may rate is way over 200………to be honest……..the number is in the three’s. So, sitting in a truck running to get a car is opportunity cost. Toss in that the truck actually ate the Duramax engine…….so add another 20k. There is no real money in the parts business. We do it out of compulsion……..we need to buy every Pierce we can find………it’s a mental illness. No cure for it. Not going to try anymore. We buy cars….we fix them, we flip them, we own them, we tour them, and some we cut up. No one particular move makes sense……in the big view……it seems to work. We have saved worse cars than this one we cut up……we are OLD now…..less time, more body aches, less motivation. In the aggregate we saved ten times more cars than we cut up……that’s a great record. I no longer have any desire to do frame off jobs……none. Sorting, servicing, showing, touring, all are ok with me. The grind of working on the same car day in and out for three years……no fxxking way. Now, the biggest joy is helping the youngsters. I try and reach out to the future people who are as nuts as I was forty years ago. They are frighteningly few of them. 
 

Thats enough rambling for now………gonna go drive a crazy cool car that I can’t talk about. The things of automotive legend and lore. A car that went through the golden age of Hollywood in film with a legendary actor that sat behind the wheel. Coachbuilt, original, fantastic……….yes, I am working on a Saturday. It’s my day off…………I don’t notice the work, I just appreciate the opportunities given to me. Tomorrow is Easter Sunday, I will be at work in the shop at 6:15 AM. Every Sunday I do a four hour shift. The life of a collection manager. It will be another great day. On this holliday weekend I will be counting my blessings. Below is my Pierce parts car now 100 points,  next to J357 on a tour in Maine……that’s AJ’s fathers Darrin to my left.

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

Ed:

 

"One off bodies from auto shows are usually rattle traps, with all sorts of strange things you wouldn’t expect. I could give a two hour talk about construction methods, and the hardware they used."

 

That's not surprising, one-off show car bodies, created many times at the last possible moment to stun and amaze the attendees, only had to last as long as the first buyer then be superseded by whatever the next showstopper the coachbuilder ginned-up.  Stylish today, passe tomorrow.

 

Steve

[SC38dls]

1912staver Fine and good you stepped up for that car and hopefully had the ability or the means to restore it. But that was that car not Ed’s car. Too many are saying this car could/should have been saved. If you are one of those why didn’t you approach him to buy the car or post you were looking for one, if you weren’t looking post to say if someone was going to cut one up let you know and you would buy it. 
I think those possibilities are as ridiculous as saying he shouldn’t have cut it up as it could have been saved by a lot of people. He offered it to people he knew had the desire for the type of car and probably had the $$ to restore it and they all passed. My thinking is Ed knows what he is doing and most likely made the best decision for his dealing with that car. Besides the fact no one seems to want to acknowledge is it is his car he gets to do what he wants with it. 
Again I thank Ed for letting us go along for this educational ride. I hope he keeps doing threads like this. 
dave s 

Edited April 16, 2022 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

A few points as well, firstly old cars have never become an everyday thing in my life that I take for granted. And I still see the special in a good many old cars. Perhaps not so much Black T's or many closed body Model A's, but yes, many old cars are still very special. 

If they ever become something I can take or leave without a second thought I will definitely move on to some other interest. I used to love sailing, gave it up to concentrate on old cars. I guess I could quite easily go back to it. In addition I spent 30 years of my career out on the water, it has never lost its hold on me.

 Secondly , I personally don't want to own a 1937 anything , passenger car , North American production. But even though I am not someone who wants to own one I can still see all the points that make a Pierce Arrow a special car.

 Finally , regarding my Staver. It was collector owned from at least just after the war. A daunting project , and I am sure some of the past owners were questioning their sanity about keeping it as a project rather than salvaging what they could from it and being done with it. But something about it kept it intact and in fact each owner found a few more parts to add to the pile over the last 75 years it has been collector owned. Like I say, we are just caretakers. Do no harm , and do your best to insure the cars you take under your wing are in a better state when they leave your care then when you bought them. 

 Who knows what might have happened to that P.A. had it stayed tucked away for another 20 years ? Fashions change over time. Perhaps a person would have found it and thought he had stumbled onto King Tutt's treasure trove. Just because no one today wanted to restore it discounts a lot of possibilities.

 99.99% of all of our treasured relics were at one point in their existence just an old piece of junk.

Edited April 16, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

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What you say makes a lot of sense for a collector especially one with money and I agree with you. But Ed runs a business and has to consider what is best for that business. We are just caretakers of our hobby he is a caretaker of a collection AND runs a business a good distance away. How many business today can afford to just tuck an asset away for twenty years hoping someone comes along and buys it? 
dave s 

[1912Staver]

I agree, once Ed bought it its fate was sealed. As he says , his business is at least partially  based on selling P.A. parts. Ed wouldn't have been the person to store it long term .  I don't know for sure , but I expect he bought the car reasonably recently.

I am out of things to say. Once you make old car decisions based on what makes sense from a  business point of view I loose interest. 

 To me old cars are how I spend money, not make it. I left that side of things behind me close to 35 years ago. Switched careers to something unrelated to old cars , and let the cars return to the status of hobby once again.

One of the things that led to that change was that the friend who I was working for kept doing much as Ed is doing. Taking very rare and desirable , down at the heals cars and parting them out because there was more short term profit. I didn't like it then , and these days my friend really regrets many of part out decisions he made back in our younger days. It only took him about 25 years to see what seemed so obvious to me at the time.

Edited April 16, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)