Brief road trip.......and a cool car.....

[edinmass]

Took a vary short trip to see my 94 year old mother for the first time in 7 months..............the pandemic had been keeping me away, but I couldn't wait any longer.....I try and see her every six to eight weeks as a mater of routine. While stopping in the shop, the boys had  an interesting car they were working on........here are a couple photos.........I found this car 12 years ago, dusty and not running for a bunch of reasons. It was in a barn in the California "nut" country..............both the two legged kind as well as the ones in the trees...........I tried to purchase it at the time, but the owner wasn't realistic on price. Fast forward ten years, and a phone call from a very close friend tells me he just bought a neat new toy. He began to describe the car, and I said........was it still in the blue barn when you went to see it? He was stunned...........and we laughed because we have the same taste in cars. Anyway, when I looked at the car I was told it was a good running car, needed nothing, and was a "good" driver. And pigs can fly.....................It took 18 months to make an entire new water pump.....the old one was rotted away, and held together with JB Weld. It was quite the project...........now that we had a new pump, the rest of the work could progress.............this is TYPICAL of almost every pre war car people buy.......but they are never prepared for. It would have been easier rebuilding the engine than it was making the pump............and about the same cost. I post this to help people learn a lesson without paying for the education.............and now the car runs great, and is fast.........but only has two wheel brakes. A very sporty early 20's hot rod............now another 200 hours to get the brakes, steering, and other issues sorted.......... "it's easy to fix.....it's just an old car!" The car has wire wheels and dual spares. If we meet up at a meet or show soon...........ask me about my flight home.........the Airbus 220 ran low on fuel on the way back to Florida..............so we landed 200 miles short of our destination. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Cadillac Fan]

Amazing.  Thanks for your insightful posts. 

[TAKerry]

What is that car?

Also, I hope your short landing was at an airport!

[oldford]

Ed, there is a guy in California making new water pumps for that Marmon. But you probably already know that. The last time I talked with him, he had two on the shelf.  Nice car... If you ever need a starter for it, let me know...

 

Frank

Edited July 23, 2020 by oldford (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Ed, once again you state very true words with the wrong advice : "It's easy to fix ....It's just an old car" and YES I hope your post will "help people learn a lesson without paying for the education".

Who ever reads this should not be afraid to own an older / old  ( ie pre WWII era) car. Just heed the advice of those of us that have done so and worked on them for 45+ years.

Do not be intimidated , but by all means be realistic , it is the same as owning an old house - wires /insulation drys out, plumbing gets crusty, parts fall off or crack etc.

Don't get mad at the vehicle for being old!

Walt

[Matt Harwood]

I have learned through brutal real-life experience that the only attitude to have when buying any old vehicle is to remember that all old cars are crap. If you expect to be disappointed, you'll only be a little disappointed when it turns out that it is, indeed, crap.

 

That's actually a really handsome Marmon. We had a 1925 D-74 roadster a few years ago that was like a locomotive on the road--endless torque and remarkably frisky road manners for such a big brute. You can definitely count me as a Marmon fan. I think of them as luxury cars built by racers.

[auburnseeker]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

ask me about my flight home.........the Airbus 220 ran low on fuel on the way back to Florida..............so we landed 200 miles short of our destination

They said the airlines are going belly up so they are trying to cut corners.  I guess no one told them that instead of Topping off the plane, only putting exactly what is needed in the tank to lighten the load and save fuel,  might not be the best choice, especially if you encounter a head wind.  

Aren't cars much better?  When you run out of gas in them you usually can just coast to the side of the road.  Landing strips are much easier to find ,  especially on secondary roads where we usually travel with them. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

It costs money, lots of money, to fly un-needed fuel (weight). There are also FAR(S), Federal air regulations, that dictate the amount of fuel required depending on the forecast weather at both your destination and alternate airports. No doubt in these times of financial stress the air lines are playing the costs game very close.

I'm speculating in Ed's case what likely happened wasn't the danger of actually running out of fuel but a blown forecast meant the plane didn't have the fuel aboard to meet the FAR required minimums at the destination airport.

In that case the airline rolled the dice and it came up "craps"........Bob

Edited July 23, 2020 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[neil morse]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Took a vary short trip to see my 94 year old mother for the first time in 7 months..............the pandemic had been keeping me away, but I couldn't wait any longer.....I try and see her every six to eight weeks as a mater of routine.

 

Great Freudian slip! 😄

 

Beautiful Marmon!

[TAKerry]

"Ran when parked"

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

It costs money, lots of money, to fly un-needed fuel (weight). There are also FAR(S), Federal air regulations, that dictate the amount of fuel required depending on the forecast weather at both your destination and alternate airports. No doubt in these times of financial stress the air lines are playing the costs game very close.

I'm speculating in Ed's case what likely happened wasn't the danger of actually running out of fuel but a blown forecast meant the plane didn't have the fuel aboard to meet the FAR required minimums at the destination airport.

In that case the airline rolled the dice and it came up "craps"........Bob

I'm sure you are correct.......

[John_Mereness]

Let me see, I needed X part for the Auburn and had 3 of which none were what I wanted in quality, then bought 2 x more for an arm and a leg of which both are just so-so (they came up in same do, so bough both as could not take the chance of ...), and then a 3rd one shows up for pennies (of which I know own that too), plus when the one came up I had to buy a bunch of other stuff of their to get them out of the parts business post sale of their car to get it.  

 

And, then there is that part out for a crack weld (nonstructural in the sence that any quality repair will be fine) and then the saga of ....

 

Then, today there was a note of a friend who says he spent 50K on his car in the last three months and cannot figure out what he spent it on (well, I know 1/5 of it, but as to the rest, the car was pretty close to done prior so ....).

 

Yesterday, I had a friends water pump in my hand for their Master Buick (1925) and have no clue how they made the shaft in the first place - he has been working on that project for 15 years now and now also owns pump after pump, but all have same issue (my solution which I said 100 times over was just weld it up and maybe it will last a couple 1000 miles, but otherwise it is a complicated casting and machining processes of which he cannot afford, but if he had done it 15 years ago he would have a running car and had not spent decent money on the other bad pumps).  Plus, once he has it out and running people will be more willing to help him. 

 

And, then there is another 40 Lincoln Continental Convertible that needs to go away and will have an earful of people wanting to pay 50 cents on the dollar matched to a really ugly base model X that is 100 point, but probably should have never been restored to begin with as it is an ugly base model X. 

 

Moral of the Story - Ed, I hear you loud and clear. 

 

[SC38dls]

As far as the flight goes I would be happy the pilot was thinking “better safe than sorry”. 
Ii would bet he had enough fuel with his mandatory reserve to make the original destination but without getting a redirect from the FAA flight controllers to go to an alternate he would have a mountain of paper work and explaining to do. The FAA would just say “PILOT ERROR “ and he would not fly again. 
 

Low and slow is the only enjoyable way to fly. 
dave s 

Edited July 23, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[Guest]

Reminds me of the "Gimli Glider".      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

[zepher]

I spent 3 years dealing with the water pump on my Rickenbacker when a very old, poorly done repair failed.

The repair was done before my father bought it in the early 60's so it lasted awhile but the repair did more damage than good in the long run.

Ever try and find replacement engine parts for a Rickenbacker?

It's not easy.

[wayne sheldon]

Love those model 34 Marmons! I know several people that own and tour with Marmons, including a couple "Speedster" models (Marmon's official name for the sleek four passenger touring style). One of my long-time best friends has an unusual four passenger coupe with the equally unusual optional steel disc wheels. I have been on Nickel Age Touring Club tours  driving along with three or four Marmons on the same tour. Wonderful cars! Unless you need to work on the water pump.

Ed, people here just don't know how right you are about these things. Beyond that, the water pump on the model 34 is a royal pain in the (any anatomical point one wishes to name) to work on! It is located on the front of the motor, down near the bottom of the radiator. It requires taking apart half the front of the whole car (okay a BIT of an exaggeration?)! Putting it together is a difficult task lining up and adjusting everything so that the water pump runs true. DAYS of fun.

 However, once dialed in, they are one of the best nickel era cars one can get for under six figures.

[Rusty_OToole]

I thought new 3D printing technology was going to make complicated castings like water pumps easier and cheaper?

[TTR]

I’m still waiting for the commentary description & details of the “Brief road trip...”, including the route(s) and vehicle used during it...🙄

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I thought new 3D printing technology was going to make complicated castings like water pumps easier and cheaper?

Read Gary Ash’s speedster thread and look at the last page or two.......lots of good information on why 3D printing is not the answer to most problems.

[JamesR]

14 hours ago, edinmass said:

ask me about my flight home.........the Airbus 220 ran low on fuel on the way back to Florida..............so we landed 200 miles short of our destination. 

 

 

Yikes...that's scary. How does that even happen?

 

Well, as auburnseeker explains:

Quote

They said the airlines are going belly up so they are trying to cut corners.    ....headwinds....

 

Still, I can't imagine that happening. We flew all the way to Denmark last year we didn't run out of gas. And good thing, too - coming back we could see the frozen mountains of Greenland and a completely iced over Hudson Bay. Beautiful, but not a great place for an emergency landing.

 

Quote

Aren't cars much better?  When you run out of gas in them you usually can just coast to the side of the road.  Landing strips are much easier to find ,  especially on secondary roads where we usually travel with them. 

 

YES!😉

[charlier]

23 hours ago, edinmass said:

...........ask me about my flight home.........the Airbus 220 ran low on fuel on the way back to Florida..............so we landed 200 miles short of our destination. 

 

So Ed, did they refuel the Airbus 220 and continue the flight or did you walk the rest of the way home? 

 

Have to wonder if the flight got hit with extra fees for the "unscheduled" landing.  I remember a company I worked for used to avoid using certain airports for their corporate plane because the landing and other fees were "too expensive". Certain people did not like to fly so it was always entertaining when they flew on the corporate plane. One time one of those people were on a flight when there was a warning light on the landing gear. That was fun for her. The next day I had to drive back home 7+ hours while the plane was being looked at. Even got to help change a flat tire on the way. Fun trip.

 

Charlie

[edinmass]

Yes, they did a gas stop, and then went to our final. Took a while to get fuel and clearance. 2 hours late at destination. 

[pmhowe]

14 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I thought new 3D printing technology was going to make complicated castings like water pumps easier and cheaper?

 

I also wondered if 3D printing would be an appropriate way to go for parts like water pumps and maybe Johnson carburetor bowls.  There is a very interesting thread on the subject on the Cadillac & LaSalle  Club website.  Here is the link:  http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=159641.0

My conclusion is that it is a good way to go, if you can do the CAD modeling yourself or have a fellow hobbyist who is willing to do it for free or a reasonable price. 

Phil

[Robert G. Smits]

I would encourage anyone interested it 3D printing to read the post referenced by pmhowe.  You will be amazed.  I  was at J Leno's shortly after he received his first printer which he paid thousands for (if my memory is correct).  A similar printer is now $150.

[keithb7]

I think of them as old pieces of crap that just need someone to love and care for them. Bring them back to life. I hear their heart singing as we travel down the roads together. People smiling at the sight of the old pile of crap.

 

When you've personally twisted almost every nut and bolt. When you've touched most every piece of corn in that piece of crap...When something goes wrong on the road, it's often a quick check here and there. A twist or tweak here and there. Then you're on your way again. If you have little to no understanding of the car , tools or knowledge...Yes I can indeed understand how at times, it can be perceived as a real piece of crap, by some.

[John_Mereness]

12 hours ago, keithb7 said:

I think of them as old pieces of crap that just need someone to love and care for them. Bring them back to life. I hear their heart singing as we travel down the roads together. People smiling at the sight of the old pile of crap.

Tends to be the truth here - they were all probably pretty decent after shake down for say 10-15K miles, but beyond that fall under a phrase my dad uses "a serviceable product."   And, I have never bought a one that in the first weeks was not all apart getting 10 things fixed to get it driveable enough that I could break 10 more over the summer thereafter. 

[dibarlaw]

On 7/23/2020 at 2:00 PM, John_Mereness said:

Let me see, I needed X part for the Auburn and had 3 of which none were what I wanted in quality, then bought 2 x more for an arm and a leg of which both are just so-so (they came up in same do, so bough both as could not take the chance of ...), and then a 3rd one shows up for pennies (of which I know own that too), plus when the one came up I had to buy a bunch of other stuff of their to get them out of the parts business post sale of their car to get it.  

 

And, then there is that part out for a crack weld (nonstructural in the sence that any quality repair will be fine) and then the saga of ....

 

Then, today there was a note of a friend who says he spent 50K on his car in the last three months and cannot figure out what he spent it on (well, I know 1/5 of it, but as to the rest, the car was pretty close to done prior so ....).

 

Yesterday, I had a friends water pump in my hand for their Master Buick (1925) and have no clue how they made the shaft in the first place - he has been working on that project for 15 years now and now also owns pump after pump, but all have same issue (my solution which I said 100 times over was just weld it up and maybe it will last a couple 1000 miles, but otherwise it is a complicated casting and machining processes of which he cannot afford, but if he had done it 15 years ago he would have a running car and had not spent decent money on the other bad pumps).  Plus, once he has it out and running people will be more willing to help him. 

 

And, then there is another 40 Lincoln Continental Convertible that needs to go away and will have an earful of people wanting to pay 50 cents on the dollar matched to a really ugly base model X that is 100 point, but probably should have never been restored to begin with as it is an ugly base model X. 

 

Moral of the Story - Ed, I hear you loud and clear. 

 

John:

 I know the issues these cars have. I have rebuilt the water pump on my 1925 Standard. I made the new stainless steel shaft and new bearings etc. My problem was that I was advised to use a very expensive lip seal (2 on each end). The input side failed and I went back with the original packing. The root of the problem was that the pump needed to be line reamed as there was a hot spot that the shaft seized to the bearing, the bearing spun in the housing and took out the timing gear.

The 1925 Master I have I still need to redo that pump also. The spare pump I picked up for that had the impellor vanes torn off.

The 1915-1918 Buick/McLaughlin group is having some of the impellors cast for these bigger 6 cylinder applications.

  Built up original to be used as a pattern.