The Car Which Shall Not Be Named III (1935 Lincoln K)

[Laughing Coyote]

If he still has the old chain then he can count the pins on that and see.

[m-mman]

1 hour ago, Laughing Coyote said:

If he still has the old chain then he can count the pins on that and see

This is the chain that the car came with.  When he bought it it came with a "rebuilt engine".

 

Fixing something that was originally worn and broken would justify all of Matt's efforts.

Sadly this is the salt in Matt's wounds, he is chasing problems that should not even have been there. 

 

Another issue is that this is a big, heavy classic. Rare when new, and unobtainium today. Total production of these types of cars was in the hundreds, not even the thousands. When these engines are/were rebuilt, few parts can come from a standardized source.

 

Since there were so few ever made (and they routinely had complex, technologically advanced, but expensive to repair systems) that they are commonly fixed (restored?) with; Homemade or Made to fit or "close enough" parts that do not always fit or function exactly as when you buy parts for a common production engine.

Having a chain installed that is a link or two short (but still fits) would be a Classic example. 

 

People talk about "Chinese junk" parts for a Ford or Chevrolet, I am sure Ed can tell us all about the homemade garbage that he has found in Classic engines that would make the cheap foreign parts look like OEM quality. 

 

I am pulling for you Matt and if I weren't in CA, I would come by and help. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by m-mman (see edit history)

[maok]

Once you get the chain on and the marks aligned, check the valve timing to be sure its correct. ie., cam on the overlap, both valves slightly open, piston at TDC'ish. You may (or will) need to remove one of the cylinder head.

Edited September 23, 2021 by maok (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

I've only found one source for a new timing chain and it's $600, and that's provided it even actually exists. The one on the engine now is new and I don't really think it's wrong. Hard to be sure, but the path is clear--disassemble the generator drive. I'll try to measure valves, perhaps by removing valve covers inside the V rather than pulling cylinder heads. My hunch is that the timing chain moved when I had the generator drive apart last time and there was a lot of slack in it. That's the only explanation. It couldn't have moved on its own and I drove it enough before taking it apart to know that it wasn't moving around significantly--it had none of the problems it has now. This is purely operator error (that's me) and I just need to go take it apart (again) and put things back to where they belong. I don't want to, but I didn't want to drop the pan again, either. Doing things twice seems to be my M.O.

 

I'm just so tired.

[Tate]

We all really want to see you get it going and have the car pay you back for all the frustration by being a sweet runner. But if you are really that tired then maybe you ought to put it on the back burner for awhile, this hobby is supposed to be fun so if you really just dread it maybe a short break is in order. I think we’ve all been there. Whatever happens we are rooting for you 

[Matt Harwood]

Very quiet day today here at the shop so Melanie told me to go out and get to work on the Lincoln. I didn't really want to, but I'm also not very good at sitting around doing nothing and since the phone wasn't ringing, why not be productive? Disassembled the water pump and generator, removed the generator drive, and backed off the tensioner to put some slack in the chain. Once that was done, I was able to easily move the cam gear to line up with the mark on the crank gear. I also verified that the tensioner was working properly and would ratchet and lock itself as the chain stretched over time. I made sure that there was tension on the chain between the cam gear and the crank gear, since the engine turns clockwise as viewed from the front. I think this was my mistake last time--I left slack between the cam and the crank gears instead of on top between the generator drive and the cam gear. When I turned it over, it took all that slack out of the chain before it started moving the cam gear, et voila! Off by two teeth.

 

Where I started.

 

Generator drive removed.

 

And where I ended up. I'm not sure whether the

mark on the cam gear isn't quite in the right position

or if they just figured close enough was close enough.
It's not like I can move it half a tooth.

 

For testing purposes to make sure the chain had proper tension and just to make sure it wasn't jumping over teeth, I had Melanie press the starter. Everything stayed where it was supposed to, at least at 40 RPM. Who knows what happens at 3000 RPM? I don't think it will have any problem with skipping.

 

 

I've left it open just in case anyone sees something I missed, but if not, I'll close it up on Saturday and try to fire it again. Yes, I'll try to figure out a way to verify that valve events are happening when they're supposed to, but I'm none too keen on the idea of pulling the heads again to do it. I might try to get into the valve cover area, but with the manifolds in place, that's not an easy job, either. I guess I'll have to figure something out.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[mike6024]

How is the cam gear mounted on the cam shaft? Can it be loosened, rotated, then tightened back down? Definitely NOT saying you should do that, but just wondering! If the gear was ever rotated on the shaft it would be cause for concern.

 

I suppose you're good the way you got it. The dots, put on by the factory, lined up as good as possible, gears have never been turned relative to the shafts they are affixed to, then what more can you do? it must be correct.

 

"And where I ended up. I'm not sure whether the

mark on the cam gear isn't quite in the right position

or if they just figured close enough was close enough.
It's not like I can move it half a tooth."

[ply33]

I am certainly not an expert, but watching your video with the starter turning over the engine, I think prior to this fix the camshaft was later than it should be. So the exhaust valves would have been slow to close which would explain the very hot exhaust manifolds.

 

But that same condition would, over enough time, also burn the exhaust valves. So the question in my mind is did the exhaust valves get damaged? I'd do a compression check with the engine as it sits now and see if that indicates any problem with the valves not sealing.

[dalef62]

Melanie deserves a gold star and a night out on the town, complete with a great dinner, with you and the Lincoln when it gets back on the road!!!  What a loving caring wife!

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, mike6024 said:

How is the cam gear mounted on the cam shaft? Can it be loosened, rotated, then tightened back down? Definitely NOT saying you should do that, but just wondering! If the gear was ever rotated on the shaft it would be cause for concern.

 

 

Camshaft gear is keyed so it can't turn on the shaft. Where it is, is where it has to be. Same with the crankshaft gear. They can't change position other than relative to each other, so at least I've got that going for me.

 

1 hour ago, ply33 said:

I am certainly not an expert, but watching your video with the starter turning over the engine, I think prior to this fix the camshaft was later than it should be. So the exhaust valves would have been slow to close which would explain the very hot exhaust manifolds.

 

But that same condition would, over enough time, also burn the exhaust valves. So the question in my mind is did the exhaust valves get damaged? I'd do a compression check with the engine as it sits now and see if that indicates any problem with the valves not sealing.

 

That's an excellent idea. I think I'll do that. I've been a little worried about the valves just because the heads were off for so long. I thought about lapping them a bit before reassembly, but then I read that valve lapping is more to check for concentricity rather than to help them seal, so I didn't bother. But a compression test is a good idea--thanks for the suggestion!

[prewarnut]

Regarding "marks". In the words of infamous atomic energy inspectors: "trust, but verify". It sounds like you are doing this.

[Zimm63]

Gratifying to have found the problem, isn't it?  Painful process, but good to have an answer to some of the "what the %#D# is going on here?" questions.  

 

Might try a leak down test along with compression.  I'd be worried about those valves too. If the manifolds were glowing, there was a lot of heat in the wrong places.  

[tom_in_nh]

Matt,

Can you verify the camshaft and crankshaft keys are not partially sheared?

It sure would put my mind at ease.

Tom

[keiser31]

Am I the only one who noticed that the water hose looked like it was melting with all of that manifold heat?

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, keiser31 said:

Am I the only one who noticed that the water hose looked like it was melting with all of that manifold heat?

 

LOL. I sure didn't miss it! I've gone through three radiator hoses. Hopefully most of the heat will be gone now. I still don't understand why they put the outlets so close to the manifolds, though.

 

 

3 hours ago, tom_in_nh said:

Matt,

Can you verify the camshaft and crankshaft keys are not partially sheared?

It sure would put my mind at ease.

Tom

 

Confirmed. Just went out and looked. HUGE keyways with long keys on them and no twisting or shearing. It's not like there's a lot of torque on them, they should be indestructible. The buggered cam timing is 100% my fault, somehow.

 

I actually went home last night feeling better than I have in months, maybe longer. It felt like a real success getting the timing back in line. I'm (once again and maybe stupidly) optimistic that I have made a big step forward and that multiple problems will be, if not cured, at least much better. I'm going to put it back together tomorrow (Saturday) and fire it and see what happens. I'll do a compression test once it's assembled just to be sure everything is healthy. I don't expect problems--it may seem like I ran it a lot, but with all the issues I doubt it has run longer than 15 minutes total in all the sessions. Plus it was never under load and this most recent run when the manifolds turned red was the only time that ever happened and was likely because I was running it hard to see if the water pump would pump. That was the only time I took it over 1700 RPM or so. As a result, I don't expect heat-related damage--it was only running that way for a few minutes at most.

 

I'll report back once I've made some progress. Am I foolish to be optimistic? We'll find out...

 

 

[neil morse]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Am I foolish to be optimistic?

 

Short answer: NO!  

[Matt Harwood]

A very long day. Reassembled the everything, including the front cover three times--first I forgot the safety wire on the camshaft bolts and then, after putting it together AGAIN, I realized I forgot the cotter pin on the tensioner pulley. Good thing I bought a new gasket because after several on/off/on/off cycles the original was toast. Whatever, I should have been paying attention a little better. Then I installed the generator and fought for a few hours with the water pump drive and oil cooler lines, but eventually prevailed. Then I rebuilt my engine stand and reinstalled the radiator, which was also easier said than done--getting everything lined up where it was before was challenging. 

 

I filled it with roughly 7 gallons, bled the water pump using my schrader valve (worked perfectly!), and hooked up the battery. Turned the key and hit the starter button and... nothing. Nada. Dead. Is the battery good? Check. Connections? Good. Oh, crap, the starter button has probably failed. Meh, there's one on the starter solenoid so I used that. Not as easy to manipulate the choke and throttle while reaching down to the starter to crank it, but after some cranking to fill the carburetor, it FIRED and it was a completely different engine. Check it out:

 

 

As you can see, it idles cleanly at about 600 RPM. The sound is completely different. Plenty of oil pressure. And, perhaps most importantly, temperatures are reasonable and mostly under control. After about 10 minutes it eventually worked its way up to 200 degrees and I shut it off, but it cooled off quickly and fired instantly without any throttle or choke when I hit the button a second time. It is a completely different animal. Some tuning is in order to help it stay cool and to dial out the off-idle stumble, but it is 80% better than it was. Now I can run it long enough to do the tuning without worrying about it going super nova. It still gets hot and it doesn't recover, but there still things to be done, including reinstalling the restrictors. And you will note that it appears to be flowing plenty of water (staying cool) at idle. The water pump is healthy.

 

But, of course, this is my car and it's THIS car, so it wasn't all smiles. There was a peculiar rattle/grumble/growl from the back of the engine, almost like the teeth on the flywheel are just barely touching something. Of course, this is also where the oil pump lives and I couldn't stop thinking about that oil pump mounting bolt that wouldn't tighten and I replaced it with a stud--was it too long? Did it come loose? Were the threads stripped and it worked its way out? Or was it the starter? I pulled the cover off the flywheel and looked around and didn't see anything amiss, although it appears that the starter drive stays permanently meshed with the flywheel gears, even when it's running--is this right?

 

Starter drive is always meshed with the flywheel.

Can this be right? Could it be the source of the noise?

 

I started it back up and the sound was still there until there was a sudden and somewhat loud ping and then the noise stopped. So something broke off and stopped rubbing? You can hear it happen in the first few seconds of this video:

 

 

 

Was this sound new or was it simply audible now that the engine was running better? And should I be worried about the sound even though it seems to be gone now? I don't know. I can't celebrate without knowing.

 

You'll also note all that oil on the flywheel and in the bellhousing. It appears to be coming out of the center of the pilot bearing, which has a felt seal--am I wrong to assume it will stop once there's a transmission shaft in there?

 

Anyway, two steps forward, maybe one step back. Tomorrow I'll do a compression test to make sure it's all good inside and investigate the sound and see if it's truly gone. If I feel up to it, maybe even do some tuning.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Figure out and fix the noise. Looks like an oil leak under the flywheel........get it fixed.

 

Sounds good. 👍👍

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[dalef62]

Sounds like you are now well on your way to driving this Lincoln.  Congratulations 🎈👏

[Bloo]

38 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Starter drive is always meshed with the flywheel.

Can this be right? Could it be the source of the noise?

 

I doubt it could be right, but I'm not going to rule it out. Do you have a picture of that starter when it was off of the engine?

[Billy Kingsley]

Even with the ping and the leak, this is still a positive update and good to see! 

[Matt Harwood]

13 hours ago, Bloo said:

 

I doubt it could be right, but I'm not going to rule it out. Do you have a picture of that starter when it was off of the engine?

 

For some reason, I don't have an actual photo of my starter but it's very similar to this:

 

 

Maybe I'll pull it off and have a look at that spring on the end.

[mike6024]

The starter gear is not disengaging like it should. Otherwise very good news. Engine sounds good, smooth. Water pump should be at least moving some water even at idle, even though it won't be putting out much volume or pressure. So maybe you can remove the radiator cap while the engine is idling for a visual check that water is in fact circulating. Maybe you have already done that.

 

I suppose you can bench test the starter, similar to a more modern one, and watch the gear kick forward and spin, and then retract when you de-energize.

[TexRiv_63]

BINGO! Sounds great, you are 90% there.

[Bloo]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

For some reason, I don't have an actual photo of my starter but it's very similar to this:

 

That one in the picture should definitely be disengaging the gear. There is no solenoid, and that is pretty normal for something from Ford at that time. There must be a Bendix behind the gear. The sudden increase in speed when the engine starts should be disengaging it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Zimm63]

That motor sounds so much happier with its cam in proper time.    I had a starter hang once and it made a definite "oh shi#, whats that?" noise that caused me to shut it right down.  It kicked loose and I was able to start the car and drive it home.  Took the starter to a good shop, who told me that they could tell it had been over speeded.  They repaired it properly and I have had no more trouble.    

 

I am assuming the noise was coming from that area?   

 

Man, you are close.  

[m-mman]

43 minutes ago, Zimm63 said:

That motor sounds so much happier with its cam in proper time. 

Just 2 teeth off. . . . How many of us would have expected ALL those problems with just this one small mismatch?  (They were so extreme and there were so many suggestions for repair being made based on the symptoms) 

Or to see how much of a difference the (simple?) correction finally made. 

 

I am now thinking about the variable valve timing on modern engines. How much change do they make? 1 tooth worth? 2 teeth?

 

I know that I feel better just following your story, there probably aren't enough words to describe how you feel.  Congratulations! 

[Bloo]

4 minutes ago, m-mman said:

Just 2 teeth off. . . . How many of us would have expected ALL those problems with just this one small mismatch?

 

Me?

 

Tooth sizes vary. Degrees per tooth would be the important factor. Nevertheless one tooth is typically enough to make any car undirveable.

 

[prewarnut]

2 hours ago, m-mman said:

Just 2 teeth off. . . . How many of us would have expected ALL those problems with just this one small mismatch?  (They were so extreme and there were so many suggestions for repair being made based on the symptoms) 

Or to see how much of a difference the (simple?) correction finally made. 

 

I am now thinking about the variable valve timing on modern engines. How much change do they make? 1 tooth worth? 2 teeth?

 

I know that I feel better just following your story, there probably aren't enough words to describe how you feel.  Congratulations! 

 

By doing the math....the crank sprocket has 28 teeth. He was off by 2. To find degrees off: 2/28=x/360, solve for x. Or, x= 25.7 degrees (retarded). On a modern BMW the VANOS will advance/retard about 25 degrees in total (so +/- only 12-13 deg. depending on engine model). Also a modern 4 valve per cylinder head and higher compression ratio can move gases a little more vigorously. Here, however the whole valve system was off or really out of phase and I suspect some exhaust gases were aspirated back in on the initial stroke thus multiplying the heating of the combustion chamber for the next cycle.

 

 

 

 

[AB-Buff]

56 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

 

By doing the math....the crank sprocket has 28 teeth. He was off by 2. To find degrees off: 2/28=x/360, solve for x. Or, x= 25.7 degrees (retarded). On a modern BMW the VANOS will advance/retard about 25 degrees in total (so +/- only 12-13 deg. depending on engine model). Also a modern 4 valve per cylinder head and higher compression ratio can move gases a little more vigorously. Here, however the whole valve system was off or really out of phase and I suspect some exhaust gases were aspirated back in on the initial stroke thus multiplying the heating of the combustion chamber for the next cycle.

 

 

 

 

You’re looking at camshaft degrees. When you check or degree a cam you have a degree wheel on your crankshaft which turns two times faster than the camshaft. So double you’re a cam degree angle and that’s how many degrees retarded that engine was. Typically you do not advance or retard the camp more than 4 to 6°.

[edinmass]

We need Ed Iskenderian to comment...........

[prewarnut]

9 hours ago, AB-Buff said:

You’re looking at camshaft degrees. When you check or degree a cam you have a degree wheel on your crankshaft which turns two times faster than the camshaft. So double you’re a cam degree angle and that’s how many degrees retarded that engine was. Typically you do not advance or retard the camp more than 4 to 6°.

 

I think I see your point. To be clear I established the cam timing to be 25+ degrees off  or out of phase with the crank although that doesn't necessarily translate to the cam degree given the 2:1 ratio. Perhaps for that figure we divide by 2 and get 12.5 or so. I was considering the relationship with the crank only because all timing was off and the durations and relationship on this car are fixed and not adjustable as with modern systems but I then made a comparison to BMW where I compared apples to oranges. I think I'm better looking at these things in the early mornings... thanks.😁

[dalef62]

Did you check the torque on the intake and heads?  After that long run they may be loose!

[Matt Harwood]

 

I literally touched nothing beyond the spark plugs. I torqued the heads and tried to perform a compression test. Results were irregular. Five cylinders had 85 PSI, two had 50 and then 0, and the rest all had 0. Tried to fire it and that's the result in the video. 

 

Screw this car. I can't keep pretending that I'm going to succeed and get my hopes up only to get kicked in the nuts again. No more. I can't. I'm out. This car was a bad idea from the beginning. It's cursed.

 

I don't want to do any of this anymore. It's just not worth it.

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[maok]

Sorry Matt, I cant stop laughing, its a terrible human behaviour regarding someone elses misery. Its like watching a tragic greek drama.

 

Now that I have lifted myself off the floor, you have made so much progress, you must go on, its just around the corner. This Lincoln re-birth will go down in AACA history, and we are all rooting for you.

 

From your compression test, its obvious that the heads need to come off.

[trimacar]

Don’t do trash heap, I’ll take it and put in my warehouse!  Would even pay more than scrap value! Had a car do same thing, in my case it was valves locking up and bending pushrods.  Shame it’s not working, I do like looks of car, but without an engine it’s just a sad chunk of metal.  So sorry for your trials and tribulations, seriously…

[Bloo]

Sorry too that it is turning out like this, but take a step back. Give it a rest for a day or 2.

 

0 psi Is almost impossible. If the crankshaft didn't break, then valves must be open. They couldn't have hit the pistons because it is a flathead. Whatever is wrong, I doubt it is super serious. Tomorrow is another day.

[Bhigdog]

Valve timing. Omitted woodruff key? Bolts not tightened? Loose chain/broken gear? Retainer somewhere left out? etc. etc.

Whatever happened it happened upon shut down. Valve timing...........Bob

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[mike6024]

Sounds like it is only running on three cylinders.

[mike6024]

Valves sticking open. Simple as that.