Old House Dreams

[alsancle]

15 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

 

The only thing I would have done on this house, or any house is to never let vegetation grow on a structure. I've done a lot of construction / remodeling and there is always a conflict between a builder, remodeler and a landscape architect. It seems landscape architects never seems to understand that a misplaced tree, shrub or ivy when it grows up can have dire consequences. This includes open space in a sidewalk, planting in a retaining wall planter, planting too close to sewer lines and planting too close to a house.  

 

Landscapers love to plant stuff right up against the house that you will then be cutting down within 10-15 years.   Also, they hate pavement so they will make your driveway next to useless but it will look great.   The other thing I've never understood,  although all of them plow in the winter, they don't account for places to put the snow.

[alsancle]

I mentioned this earlier.  This one sold for not a lot of money (relatively speaking) near the center of town but on an side street.   I thought it was pretty cool and would make a neat house.

 

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10-School-St-Northborough-MA-01532/173822819_zpid/?

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by alsancle (see edit history)

[John Bloom]

17 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I mentioned this earlier.  This one sold for not a lot of money (relatively speaking) near the center of town but on an side street.   I thought it was pretty cool and would make a neat house.

 

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10-School-St-Northborough-MA-01532/173822819_zpid/?

 

Up  where I live, I think someone would be looking at buying that and remake it into four 1,000 square foot lofts and rent then for 2 grand each.  Zoning often crushes those dreams.  

[mike6024]

 

This is an interesting book if you like architecture. he laid out floor plans using grids. First used a 2 ft by 4 ft grid. Then went on to using hexagon, octogon, triangles.

 

https://inhabitat.com/frank-lloyds-wrights-74-year-old-design-for-an-usonian-house-gets-built-in-california/frank-lloyd-wright-usonian-house-5/ (one in Florida)

 

[1937hd45]

I need to figure out when the "NEW" architecture first came out, the style were nothing I own or care to own fits in visually. 

[Gunsmoke]

Frank Lloyd Wright, considered by many to be America's premier Residential Architect , approached his commissions with the skill, vision, attention to detail and sense of awe similar to the way great marque car builders approached their work. The design concept had to meet the customers need and respond to the site it sat on. The structure had to make a statement, even if it was subtle and understated. The detail and finishes had to be fully thought out, drawn precisely and executed with exceptional craftsmanship. No finish or even minor detail was left for on-site decision by some bored tradesperson. For many of Wright's houses, his commission included everything, light fixtures, furniture, stained glass patterns, custom hardware and landscaping. Nothing was left to chance. Like building a Duesenberg. Of course he had access to wealthy clients, master builders, and woodworking craftsmen rarely seen today. So in the same vein as we love the Duesies, Cords, PA's, Packards and other exceptional cars, so we also love houses built in the same era to similar exacting standards. Not many such houses being built today, but there are some if you know where they are. Not inexpensive!

[1937hd45]

I guess my Mid Century Modern would be 1750 & 1850

[Pfeil]

23 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

Frank Lloyd Wright, considered by many to be America's premier Residential Architect , approached his commissions with the skill, vision, attention to detail and sense of awe similar to the way great marque car builders approached their work. The design concept had to meet the customers need and respond to the site it sat on. The structure had to make a statement, even if it was subtle and understated. The detail and finishes had to be fully thought out, drawn precisely and executed with exceptional craftsmanship. No finish or even minor detail was left for on-site decision by some bored tradesperson. For many of Wright's houses, his commission included everything, light fixtures, furniture, stained glass patterns, custom hardware and landscaping. Nothing was left to chance. Like building a Duesenberg. Of course he had access to wealthy clients, master builders, and woodworking craftsmen rarely seen today. So in the same vein as we love the Duesies, Cords, PA's, Packards and other exceptional cars, so we also love houses built in the same era to similar exacting standards. Not many such houses being built today, but there are some if you know where they are. Not inexpensive!

I used to park in front of this Lloyd Wright (son of Frank) house when I went surfing. The Los Angeles Conservancy tried to stop it's demolition but failed.

 

This is what was built in its place. 

End of the line

 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[34LaSalleClubSedan]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

So I scarily was serious about buying this when my kids were young.   My wife (thank god) put the kabosh on it because she said there was no way she would stay alone in that house when I was away.   It sat on its own and you couldn't see another house.     On the plus side,  the carriage house would hold 9 cars according to my calculations.

 

I bet "Mary Bailey" from "It's a Wonderful Life" would have you living in it.

[JV Puleo]

It's all a matter of taste...I had friends that, for many years, owned a FLW house. They found it very difficult to maintain, at least in that it was almost impossible to keep the flat roof from leaking. It came with all the FLW designed furniture too...though they found it so uncomfortable that they gave it all to Goodwill Industries. Personally, I've never cared for his style but I admit to being a bit "out of date". This is my house The left side was built in 1703...it was expanded around 1753 and I built the 2nd floor.

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

FLW did much commercial too. Not all architects are versatile in that way although many enjoy attempting residential commissions....Here's his Imperial Hotel in Tokyo (second version - now destroyed) with some ?American cars parked in front.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by prewarnut
detail (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I'm sure I'm in the minority,  but I despise Frank Loyd Wright.

 

I'm a fan of the traditional gilded age (say 1890 to 1930) architects that built the houses for the robber barons.  I always wanted to be a robber baron .

 

1.  Mckim, Mead and White - especially their colonial revival stuff

 

 

2. Horace Trumbauer

 

 

 

3.  Richard Morris Hunt

 

[alsancle]

I forgot about this one.  My first love of a house that would have bankrupted me.   25 years ago my wife and I looked at this twice,  I brought my parents along the second time and my dad started yelling me.  I'm happy he did that.

 

Here are some pictures after someone else bought it and restored it.  The carriage house would hold 3 or 4 cars easily.   It came back on the market 10 years later for about 4 times the original price - given the work they did I'm sure that was less than what they had in to it.    Just like a car.

 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

In my hometown (West Hartford, CT) the Steele Road neighborhood consists of tudor style homes built around 1915 - 1925 or so.  Would be my thing, along with farmhouses. Alan Swift, (whose Springfield RR has been discussed here many times)lived in that neighborhood, he was a perfect fit coming from "old Hartford" money.  It was a perfect backdrop for the car which did see a fair amount of use.  @Prewarnut, I am sure, knows the area.

FLW places don't do a thing for me either, and the restyle of his Lincoln is proof it was good that he was not an auto designer!

Edited January 30, 2022 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

+1 for Mckim Mead and White. I think they did a huge service to this country to get our public, governmental and commercial spaces on par with other (European) world powers. (Stanford White's death makes an interesting read BTW....)

The one interesting parallel of FLW to auto design. If you look at his renderings not architectural plans, he'll often pull-out the horizontal lines or parallel verticals akin to how car designers will lengthen style lines. He is definitely polarizing and as most modern critics will say his houses are somewhat difficult to live with or in. 

To the OP not wanting to deflect from the post. I appreciate the hyperlink. There are some interesting homes available albeit many with needed structural issues. 

[alsancle]

Right now I’m thinking my dream home is an 1100 square-foot ranch somewhere in Florida.

[prewarnut]

One of my favorites in its former trim colors I remember. Nestled between a famous author and famous abolitionist's abode.

 

[Walt G]

Most interesting commentary. I have a Masters degree + in art , took many art history courses on the graduate level and always hung around with the professors /teachers after class if they seemed to have an interesting knowledge of art , and architecture , many on a first hand basis. The comment that the FLW houses can be problematic ( leaks etc) is true

I heard this 50 years ago. Being a "great" architect and being a builder - someone who has to construct a structure hands on, can be two very very different things.

Along with several friends here who have commented all who live in New England, not only do we share the same interest in cars of a certain era ( yes Pre WWII) but also our preference for architecture that incorporates stone, masonry, wood, perhaps leaded glass but have less enthusiasm for structures that use a lot of aluminum framed anything and huge panes/walls  of glass.

[John Bloom]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

I'm sure I'm in the minority,  but I despise Frank Loyd Wright.

 

I'm a fan of the traditional gilded age (say 1890 to 1930) architects that built the houses for the robber barons.  I always wanted to be a robber baron .

 

 

Sign me up to be a robber baron.  About an hour northwest of me is Lake Geneva.  If you are in the area, take the mailboat tour of the lake.  Fabulous places.  Wrigleys, Sears, Schwinn, Morton, others who's name may not be as familiar but they "had a lot of oil".  I like Stone Manor, but there are so many killer places on the lake.  In the last few weeks, billionaire Richard Driehaus (who recently passed away) sold his place for 36 million.  he also was a classic car collector and hosted some CCCA events at him home.  The list of Architects who designed on Lake Geneva is a who's who of icons in the Architectural world.   Some of the most spectacular ones build around the turn of the century burned down and were replaced with more modest, practical homes.  A summer weekend on Lake Geneva and touring the lake is a great three day weekend idea for those of you who live a ways away.  

 

   

[George K]

15 hours ago, 30DodgePanel said:

My dream house is a shop with living quarters (2 rooms) in the back, but the wife isn't going for it. Not sure why...

 

Perfect formula. 2 bedroom house with 20 bedroom garage.

[30DodgePanel]

Wife has instructed me that it has to have at least 80 acres, full wrap around and wood decking with a swing. Can be log or wood siding, no brick or stone on the main structure.

 

And the machine shop must be on 10 acres furthest from house.

 

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, Walt G said:

The comment that the FLW houses can be problematic ( leaks etc) is true

I heard this 50 years ago. Being a "great" architect and being a builder - someone who has to construct a structure hands on, can be two very very different things.

For the most part, architects are not structural engineers, though I do believe FLW had some degree of engineering knowledge where the Imperial Hotel in Tokyo survived the 1923 earthquake being constructed on pilings.  Of course, nature does take it toll on building materials, and it appears flat roofs are the most vulnerable to the elements, and the Falling Water house is no exception:  World Heritage Preserved 2021 - Fallingwater

 

A classic example was Jørn Utzon, designer of the famed Sydney Opera House was not an engineer.  He wanted the 'sails' for the roof to be smooth, without ribs in the precast concrete, but could not be done at the time.  And there were several other engineering obstacles which also explained in part why it took 13 years to build.  Reportedly, Jørn Utzon was so pissed off, that he refused to attend the grand opening celebrations in 1973.

 

Craig

[1937hd45]

Just like Mom & Dad we built our house 43 years ago, too much stuff in it now to ever think of moving. Like the car projects it will never be really finished, or landscaped.

[60FlatTop]

My house was built in 1853. Architecturally it is called a wing and gable, commonly just farmhouse style. The original "wing" has had two major renovations, the two story gable about 1862 and a kitchen addition in 1872. No changes other than paint and paper have been done (yes, my wife and I did paper).

It is mainly decorated in crossover century attic style. We like to be on the leading edge of the antique market.

 

For over 15 years of my life I taught for an HVAC apprenticeship program. My students always wanted to get my wife and I away for a weekend and remove my old friend.

Still there silent as ever.

 

The house and old cars tend to even match in technology. It is hard to find an operating Octopus today.

 

 

 

[Bhigdog]

14 hours ago, John Bloom said:

Up  where I live, I think someone would be looking at buying that and remake it into four 1,000 square foot lofts and rent then for 2 grand each.  Zoning often crushes those dreams.  

That's almost an exact copy of an 1850 church I bought that had been converted in 1929  to 4 mirror image apartments, 2 up, 2 down, with a 4 room shotgun apt in the basement. I kept it for 20 years and was always in the black but only because I did all the work myself. 1920's plumbing, wiring, windows and construction was a nightmare. If I would have paid tradesmen to do the work I would have been bankrupt in 5 years.....Bob

[SC38dls]

Our old building just sold for $665,000 in a short sale. I know the guy who bought it from us dumped another 8-900,000 into it and the bank took it over. This will give you an idea of what the inside can look like on those old houses. The inside is magnificent. 
dave s 

https://www.estately.com/listings/info/434-w-downer-place

[JV Puleo]

2 hours ago, Walt G said:

Being a "great" architect and being a builder - someone who has to construct a structure hands on, can be two very very different things.

The house my friends owned had a long cantilever'd roof over a porch that had to be repaired. They had the original prints — which had come with the house — but when the builder stripped off the roof he found that whoever had actually built the house had added two railroad rails to keep the roof from sagging.

[alsancle]

8 minutes ago, SC38dls said:

Our old building just sold for $665,000 in a short sale. I know the guy who bought it from us dumped another 8-900,000 into it and the bank took it over. This will give you an idea of what the inside can look like on those old houses. The inside is magnificent. 
dave s 

https://www.estately.com/listings/info/434-w-downer-place

I think that happens more often than not. The analogy to the cars is very strong.

[West Peterson]

43 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Of course, nature does take it toll on building materials, and it appears flat roofs are the most vulnerable to the elements, and the Falling Water house is no exception:  World Heritage Preserved 2021 - Fallingwater

 

Craig

 

I believe the reason Falling Waters became a problem is because way too many people were going through it. It wasn't designed/engineered to have that much traffic going through it.

[Bhigdog]

Not near 100 years old nor classic but I'm putting it here anyway, modesty be damned, because my wife and I built it ourselves in 1971/72. Other than the excavation and having the foundation poured we drove every nail and we did it all from plumbing, heating, electrical, masonry etc with no other help not even labor help.    

Sited on 100 acres the 5 car garage, also self built, is set about 50 feet left of the house, the stable is about 100 feet to the right, and the hobby car garage/work shop/machine shop about 200 feet in front of the house.

Thank you for indulging an aging hobbiest...........Bob

[TAKerry]

Wrights ideas preceded construction technology.

[Gunsmoke]

Since I opened the Frank Lloyd Wright part of this post ( a man who has positively influenced generations of young architects on the principle of organic and pure architecture), and since the Master himself is not around to defend himself or his work, I feel compelled to offer a brief response to some of the above comments.

 

One person said "I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I despise Frank Lloyd Wright.... adding I'm a fan of the traditional gilded age (say 1890 to 1930) architects that built the houses for the robber barons." Despising FLW seems a bit over the top, but to each his own (sort of like saying I despise PA's because of their headlights). The so-called robber baron  houses were typically copies of large European houses built decades or centuries earlier. Those "traditional architects" simply copied detailing and monumentalism from a different part of the world (Greek, Roman, Victorian etc) to make estates for the barons, most of whom likely had very little refined taste, just wanted something bigger and more ostentatious. The Modern Architecture movement of the early 1920's cast off the reins of traditionalism and forged a new approach, "form follow function", and "less is more" being one primary tenets. 

 

One person said "It's all a matter of taste...I had friends that, for many years, owned a FLW house. They found it very difficult to maintain, at least in that it was almost impossible to keep the flat roof from leaking. It came with all the FLW designed furniture too...though they found it so uncomfortable..." While likely true anecdotal notes (giving to goodwill a bit unlikely as FLW's furniture is highly sought among collectors), living in an FLW house would always be a blend of sheer enjoyment for the awe it creates in spatial development, functionality, uniqueness and often relationship to the outdoors (views, landscaping etc), it would be akin to living in a work of art, and while every brush stroke might not be perfect, who would dare try to "touch it up". It's like owning a Duesenberg and deciding the seats are too high, or the door handles not user friendly and complaining. Works of art including Duesenbergs need to be left alone warts and all.

 

One person said "the Steele Road neighborhood consists of Tudor style homes built around 1915 - 1925 or so", again a style from England long enjoyed because of its "homey timber framing" and steep rooves (and a style I like as well). While many American versions were built around turn of last centuries (1890-1930) they are copies (in whole or part) of houses built in England 200 years earlier. The current "Retro and Restomod" approach to car design has some of this same resonance, a desire to go back to the way things use to be.

 

One person said "He is definitely polarizing and as most modern critics will say his houses are somewhat difficult to live with or in". I've read many books and articles on FLW's houses and the overwhelming majority of them have nothing but praise for his work. Again like many works of art, his houses cannot be easily adapted to meet modern needs, TV's, electronics, microwaves you name it. But owners who have them love them and would never change a thing, even the annoyances, like edinmass loves his PA's, someone loves their 63 Buick, or their 1905 Cadillac.

 

One person said "Being a "great" architect and being a (great)builder - someone who has to construct a structure hands on, can be two very very different things." I agree and think FLW would agree as well. The relationship between architect and client is important, but the relationship between the architect and builder is perhaps even more important. There needs to be a level of respect for each other's contribution to the final result. Remember they both are being hired by and paid by the same person, the owner. They need to be able to not only respect each other, but work as a team for the owner who ultimately has to be satisfied with their work. A testament to FLW lies in his ability to have Master Builders" execute his vision to a fine detail and please often very critical clients. 

 

I've taken the time to respond not to be debating, but to remind AACA members that exceptional house design and construction principles parallel exceptional automotive design and construction principles. Much like the proverbially stable "three legged stool", for a good result you need the same 3 parties. A designer who sets a high bar, a builder/manufacturer who excepts nothing but the best of material, process and skill, and a buyer/owner who recognizes the results are exactly what he wants/wanted.  

[alsancle]

I have a million of these.  I was two years out of school and this came on the market for 275k.   It could have been 2 million given my purchase power.  I didn't even call the realtor, but I drove by it every weekend until it sold.

 

 

[West Peterson]

1 minute ago, alsancle said:

I have a million of these.  I was two years out of school and this came on the market for 275k.   It could have been 2 million given my purchase power.  I didn't even call the realtor, but I drove by it every weekend until it sold.

 

 

 

And they're still working on it....

[Larry Schramm]

59 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

My house was built in 1853. Architecturally it is called a wing and gable, commonly just farmhouse style. The original "wing" has had two major renovations, the two story gable about 1862 and a kitchen addition in 1872. No changes other than paint and paper have been done (yes, my wife and I did paper).

It is mainly decorated in crossover century attic style. We like to be on the leading edge of the antique market.

 

For over 15 years of my life I taught for an HVAC apprenticeship program. My students always wanted to get my wife and I away for a weekend and remove my old friend.

Still there silent as ever.

 

The house and old cars tend to even match in technology. It is hard to find an operating Octopus today.

 

 

 

 

True on the octopus, but it looks like it was changed over from coal to gas.

[TAKerry]

AJ, as a builder I love those big old houses and my mind goes directly to the builder, how things were erected, put together etc. As to the house my first thought is 'How much does it cost to heat that thing?'

 

In comparing old cars to old house I have a customer that owns a large victorian, her family is the second owner. It was built late 1800's by a church. It is a large shingle style but very plain. The current owner (almost 100years old) is the second generation of owners. Her husbands family bought the house around 1900. Her mother in law gave the home to her son and lived with them until her death at 100.  My son is the 4th generation in my family to have worked on it. The family was wealthy enough to keep it will maintained over the years and it is still largely original, with the exception of a new kitchen 40yrs ago and updated bathrooms.

[60FlatTop]

That's a Gordon burner installed in 1968. I still have the coal grates if I decide to go back.

 

The outside of the coal bin wall was decorated with my great grandfather's buffalo robe as I was growing up. One of those would have to be part of reverting.

 

 

[alsancle]

8 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

AJ, as a builder I love those big old houses and my mind goes directly to the builder, how things were erected, put together etc. As to the house my first thought is 'How much does it cost to heat that thing?'

 

In comparing old cars to old house I have a customer that owns a large victorian, her family is the second owner. It was built late 1800's by a church. It is a large shingle style but very plain. The current owner (almost 100years old) is the second generation of owners. Her husbands family bought the house around 1900. Her mother in law gave the home to her son and lived with them until her death at 100.  My son is the 4th generation in my family to have worked on it. The family was wealthy enough to keep it will maintained over the years and it is still largely original, with the exception of a new kitchen 40yrs ago and updated bathrooms.

That is cool that it has stayed in the family that long and they kept it up.  Most don't or can't.

 

Questions like "how much does it cost to heat?" means it is best to not be considering it.    The large colonial revival I posted earlier was around 8500 square feet and the oil bill ran around 2k/month in the winter.  That was 20 years ago.

 

I have a friend who custom built a very large house 25 years ago.   I mean very large.   10 years ago his electric bill was 4500/month.   In his realm of bills he was paying,  that electric bill wasn't a blip.

 

Ultimately the size is going to dictate the overhead.  The bigger it is, the more you are going to pay.   Which is my my next house is going to be that 1100 square foot ranch.   I like ranches.  Very functional and they can look nice if proportioned correctly.

[TAKerry]

Another customer has a large farm. The 'main' house looks like a museum. It has been in their family since the 1700's. The house was built early 1800's. It is only used as a weekend home but the 2 oil tanks are filled every other week during the winter. I try to get by with filling mine twice a year! 

 

You are correct though, and the same with cars, If you have to ask you cant afford.

[CHuDWah]

17 hours ago, Pfeil said:

The only thing I would have done on this house, or any house is to never let vegetation grow on a structure. I've done a lot of construction / remodeling and there is always a conflict between a builder, remodeler and a landscape architect. It seems landscape architects never seems to understand that a misplaced tree, shrub or ivy when it grows up can have dire consequences. This includes open space in a sidewalk, planting in a retaining wall planter, planting too close to sewer lines and planting too close to a house.  

Yep, we've bought houses where we had to remove exiting vegetation because it threatened the structure.  Another problem is failure to maintain (pruning, etc) the vegetation until it gets to the point it can't be saved and has to be removed.