8 Volt battery used in a 34 Buick?

[Frank Wilkie]

Any automotive electrical experts ?

 

My 1934 Buick 50 series has the 6 volt system.  I'm considering putting in a 8 volt in for the starter. I want to keep operating everything else 6 volt. Therefore, I'm thinking that a resistor should be located just after the hot side of the starter going up into the vehicle.  Would this be correct?  If so , then is there a resistor available for this ?   Then would the voltage regulator need to be bumped up in order for keeping the 8 volt battery charged?

[Matt Harwood]

8 volt batteries are a crutch, not a solution. It started and ran on 6 volts when it was new, it should do so now. There's no good way to make 8V work--either you turn up your generator to charge an 8 volt battery (and the generator will need to crank out 9.5-10 volts to charge an 8-volt battery) or you leave it stock and lose the benefits of the 8-volt battery because it's only being charged to 6 volts. There's no midway, no hack, no clever use of resistors that makes it work properly. Heck, if you're going to 8, you may as well go to 12 and at least have commonly-available parts at your disposal.

 

Or just keep it 6 volts. So it cranks slowly, so what? If it starts, it starts. It never cranked like a modern car anyway. Big battery cables, clean grounds, extra ground straps from the starter to the ground cable on the battery, those will all improve starting performance without any halfway measures like an 8-volt battery. Make sure your starter is in good condition--hard starts can be due to tired bushings and worn brushes/armatures. Make sure your fuel system is in top condition and add an electric fuel pump to prime it and give it its best chance at firing. Get the ignition system into top condition so that you get the hottest spark possible. These cars didn't have any problems starting in the 1930s, so any issues today are due to age and wear not bad design. My father used his '41 Buick Super as a daily driver, winter and summer, for 7 years in the 1980s and it would always start even after sitting outside all day in 15-degree weather. 6 volt electrical systems are not inherently defective if they're in good condition.

 

8 volts is not a solution, it's just a new set of problems that cover up the old problems.

[alsancle]

Matt beat me to it but I was gonna say the same thing. 6 V system when properly set up will work perfectly well .You need to find and fix the problems.

 

and Matt already said it, but I would start with the battery cables and the ground. From my experience that’s where a lot of the issues are. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Str8-8-Dave]

14 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I would start with the battery cables and the ground.

Another thing that will really drag down starting in cold weather is too heavy oil.  I'm guilty of that arrangement but I don't try to start my car in cold weather anyway, it gets stored as soon as temps start to drop in the fall.  It has hard enough time in the summer with 15w40 in it's belly.  I'm eventually going to go to 10w30 or 10w40 oil.  I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

[Frank Wilkie]

ok..  I have already put a second ground going up to the starter. Cleaned all the contacts. When I give the 6 volt battery a good charging it does better on the start up..  I've had the battery checked out and it's good.  I was just looking for the little extra punch..

 

[trimacar]

Has the starter been rebuilt recently?  Nice big fat cables from the battery?  Terminals on battery clean?  Ground to starter on bare metal not paint?  Positive going through a switch or solenoid, and contacts are clean and smooth?

 

As stated, 6 volts works well if everything in top condition….

[F&J]

I personally won't use 8v.  One thing you have not mentioned is the physical size, and cranking amps of the battery you use.  I worked on three different 34 LaSalle straight 8 cars for an estate.  (very similar to your Buick). The first one had a modified battery tray which "hangs" under the front seat floor in the chassis frame.  One long time former owner had used the biggest size battery that would fit between the frame sections by using a longer tray.  The battery had to be put in with a floor jack from under the car, then the hanging bracket was hooked to the main brackets.  The battery was too big to go in from above.. Anyways it started so nice with a new biggest 6v battery from Tractor Supply, that I did the same thing with the other two cars. 

 

One old time mechanic told me decades ago, ''buy the heaviest battery that will fit"  Heavy means more plates, more cranking amps, more reserve.  Far better than a smaller cased, lighter 8v, and lasts far longer.

Edited January 7, 2022 by F&J (see edit history)

[Buick35]

4 hours ago, Frank Wilkie said:

Any automotive electrical experts ?

 

My 1934 Buick 50 series has the 6 volt system.  I'm considering putting in a 8 volt in for the starter. I want to keep operating everything else 6 volt. Therefore, I'm thinking that a resistor should be located just after the hot side of the starter going up into the vehicle.  Would this be correct?  If so , then is there a resistor available for this ?   Then would the voltage regulator need to be bumped up in order for keeping the 8 volt battery charged?

Nice Buick.I have a 35 40 series and had trouble with it turning over real slow until it cooled down.I had the starter rebuilt and added a second big ground cable and now it starts fine.It's six volt also with a tractor supply battery.Funny,mine has the single driving light on the drivers side too. All I could find at the time,it's an Appleton.I bought my Buick in northern Illinois and have a pair of 35 Illinois plates if you would be interested. Dose your wipers work? Mine dont.I also have a glove box clock delete cover if you need one.Have a nice day.Greg.P.s.I also have the original title from Maple park,Illinois.

[Buick35]

4 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

8 volt batteries are a crutch, not a solution. It started and ran on 6 volts when it was new, it should do so now. There's no good way to make 8V work--either you turn up your generator to charge an 8 volt battery (and the generator will need to crank out 9.5-10 volts to charge an 8-volt battery) or you leave it stock and lose the benefits of the 8-volt battery because it's only being charged to 6 volts. There's no midway, no hack, no clever use of resistors that makes it work properly. Heck, if you're going to 8, you may as well go to 12 and at least have commonly-available parts at your disposal.

 

Or just keep it 6 volts. So it cranks slowly, so what? If it starts, it starts. It never cranked like a modern car anyway. Big battery cables, clean grounds, extra ground straps from the starter to the ground cable on the battery, those will all improve starting performance without any halfway measures like an 8-volt battery. Make sure your starter is in good condition--hard starts can be due to tired bushings and worn brushes/armatures. Make sure your fuel system is in top condition and add an electric fuel pump to prime it and give it its best chance at firing. Get the ignition system into top condition so that you get the hottest spark possible. These cars didn't have any problems starting in the 1930s, so any issues today are due to age and wear not bad design. My father used his '41 Buick Super as a daily driver, winter and summer, for 7 years in the 1980s and it would always start even after sitting outside all day in 15-degree weather. 6 volt electrical systems are not inherently defective if they're in good condition.

 

8 volts is not a solution, it's just a new set of problems that cover up the old problems.

I thought 34s only had one wiper arm but maybe that's only for 40 series.

[hidden_hunter]

9 hours ago, Frank Wilkie said:

 

ok..  I have already put a second ground going up to the starter. Cleaned all the contacts. When I give the 6 volt battery a good charging it does better on the start up..  I've had the battery checked out and it's good.  I was just looking for the little extra punch..

 

What do you mean by extra punch?

 

What 6v battery are you using? We have optima red tops in our earlier cars and as long as they haven’t been sitting for a while (and need to get fuel) they start almost instantly 

[Frank Wilkie]

5 hours ago, Buick35 said:

Nice Buick.I have a 35 40 series and had trouble with it turning over real slow until it cooled down.I had the starter rebuilt and added a second big ground cable and now it starts fine.It's six volt also with a tractor supply battery.Funny,mine has the single driving light on the drivers side too. All I could find at the time,it's an Appleton.I bought my Buick in northern Illinois and have a pair of 35 Illinois plates if you would be interested. Dose your wipers work? Mine dont.I also have a glove box clock delete cover if you need one.Have a nice day.Greg.P.s.I also have the original title from Maple park,Illinois.

my wipers work..  I've got a clock in my glove box door.   I've tried a larger battery but it would fit in the battery holder , too tall.

This is a original condition car inside and out.  Has a fantastic history

 

[Frank Wilkie]

3 minutes ago, hidden_hunter said:

What do you mean by extra punch?    

 

What 6v battery are you using? We have optima red tops in our earlier cars and as long as they haven’t been sitting for a while (and need to get fuel) they start almost instantly 

more juice going to the starter for turning it over faster.

may try the optima

 

[Oldtech]

Agree with no 8 volt. And.. You can't just put a resistor in the works off the starter because as current draw changes the voltage changes.  If you had one that worked for the lights it would do nothing on light loads and vice-versa.  We tried them at a museum I volunteer at. Cars started like a champ - for 1 summer, then they didn't work.  Went back to 6 volts. 

[hidden_hunter]

1 hour ago, Frank Wilkie said:

more juice going to the starter for turning it over faster.

may try the optima

I guess the question is, why do you think it needs to turn over faster? Is it indicative of another problem?

[Matt Harwood]

Two Optimas. 1600 cold cranking amps. There's no way that thing can't start.

 

[Tom Boehm]

In addition to all the above ideas, it helped on my 1940 Lasalle/Cadillac V8 to remove the rust and paint from between the starter and the bell housing. Remove the starter and make all the mating surfaces bright metal. Prevent future rust with dielectric grease. 

[Stude Light]

19 minutes ago, Tom Boehm said:

In addition to all the above ideas, it helped on my 1940 Lasalle/Cadillac V8 to remove the rust and paint from between the starter and the bell housing. Remove the starter and make all the mating surfaces bright metal. Prevent future rust with dielectric grease. 

While I agree with Tom on getting a good ground path for the starter by making the mating surfaces more conducive, the application of dielectric grease is counter productive. By its definition (dielectric) it is an insulating grease. Outside of its ability to help prevent future oxidation of the mating surfaces it actually reduces conductivity between surfaces. It is best used in areas to prevent electrical crossover such as bulb socket or multi pin connector where water or corrosion would create a shorting effect between two or more independent electrical paths.

 

A much better solution for a single grounding paths is to use a carbon black conductive grease. It increases conductivity and helps prevent oxidation (rust). Your starter housing is a perfect application as are other areas that rely on a path to chassis ground such as headlight housing that requires a path back to the frame.

Scott

[Frank DuVal]

Just remember, to charge the 8 volt battery (actually 8.4V lead acid battery) you need to crank up the generator/voltage regulator to 9.5 volts, so that is an extreme torture for your electrical system! Don't do it!😉

 

If you do not crank up the generator/voltage regulator then the 8 volt battery will be undercharged, causing more slow starting issues..... and the cycle repeats.....😡

[Dodge1934]

I didn`t read through all the comments but when I first restored my car I had a group 1... 6 volt battery and it started poorly. I did install heavy cables and also switched to a group 2 ... 6 volt battery.... I have had no problems since then,,,,, FYI that is on a 34 Dodge.

A group 2 battery is longer and has more plates than a group 1 battery

[Tom Boehm]

Hello Studelight, I learned something today! I did not know that about dielectric grease. I will try the carbon conductive grease. 

[Stude Light]

4 hours ago, Tom Boehm said:

Hello Studelight, I learned something today! I did not know that about dielectric grease. I will try the carbon conductive grease. 

Excellent. That’s what makes the forum so great. I’m constantly learning too.

[Bloo]

Dielectric grease is often used on connections such as a battery cable to a frame to improve conductivity, the idea being that the metal is touching because it is under pressure, and the grease blocks oxygen to prevent degradation of the connection due to rust, corrosion, etc. I don't like it for the exact reasons @Stude Light outlined, and almost never use it. The carbon grease is new to me. I'll have to get some to play with. Thanks!

 

Another thing you can experiment with is the grey goop electricians use on aluminum wire. There is one member here who swears by it, I don't remember who. When rebuilding my headlights I used it on some connections, mainly the grounds. The lights are bright and the loss is quite low. Is it just because everything is cleaned up or did the aluminum goop help? I don't know, but it is something to think about. The manufacturer of the goop does not specify any uses like this. Nevertheless a year later the connections remain very good.

 

 

 

[EmTee]

24 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Another thing you can experiment with is the grey goop electricians use on aluminum wire.

I think Ox-Gard is one example of this 'goop' that I have used for this purpose.  As Bloo said, it seems to work and I use it where I'm concerned about oxidation, but want the best possible conductivity.

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Graham Man]

I had troubles with my 1933 Graham Eight, new cables, about the size of your thumb (4/0 AWG), clean up all the connection, good 6V battery, it should start right up.  My Graham spins over great, normally fires right up. 

 

My money is someone replaced the battery cables with 12V, about half the thickness needed.

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, Graham Man said:

I had troubles with my 1933 Graham Eight, new cables, about the size of your thumb (4/0 AWG), clean up all the connection, good 6V battery, it should start right up.  My Graham spins over great, normally fires right up. 

 

My money is someone replaced the battery cables with 12V, about half the thickness needed.

I think the most common problem is the six V cables being replaced with 12 V cables.

[maok]

Place a volt meter across the starter motor connection and let us know what it reads when another tries to start it.

[Tonz]

Catapillar sell a nice 6 volt, 750 CCA battery for half the price of the others.

This is a wet cell, regular battery designed for starting big machinery. Not a deep cycle battery for golf carts.

[John Greenwood]

On 1/8/2022 at 2:17 AM, Matt Harwood said:

8 volt batteries are a crutch, not a solution. It started and ran on 6 volts when it was new, it should do so now. There's no good way to make 8V work--either you turn up your generator to charge an 8 volt battery (and the generator will need to crank out 9.5-10 volts to charge an 8-volt battery) or you leave it stock and lose the benefits of the 8-volt battery because it's only being charged to 6 volts. There's no midway, no hack, no clever use of resistors that makes it work properly. Heck, if you're going to 8, you may as well go to 12 and at least have commonly-available parts at your disposal.

 

Or just keep it 6 volts. So it cranks slowly, so what? If it starts, it starts. It never cranked like a modern car anyway. Big battery cables, clean grounds, extra ground straps from the starter to the ground cable on the battery, those will all improve starting performance without any halfway measures like an 8-volt battery. Make sure your starter is in good condition--hard starts can be due to tired bushings and worn brushes/armatures. Make sure your fuel system is in top condition and add an electric fuel pump to prime it and give it its best chance at firing. Get the ignition system into top condition so that you get the hottest spark possible. These cars didn't have any problems starting in the 1930s, so any issues today are due to age and wear not bad design. My father used his '41 Buick Super as a daily driver, winter and summer, for 7 years in the 1980s and it would always start even after sitting outside all day in 15-degree weather. 6 volt electrical systems are not inherently defective if they're in good condition.

 

8 volts is not a solution, it's just a new set of problems that cover up the old problems.

I’d leave it 6 volts and keep you car tuned new spark plugs and overhaul the carby 

when you get used to your car it will start easier try cranking over 3 times on full choke the push in to 1/3 and crank over 

also I had a 1934 chev that was converted 12 volt and the Bendix starter would throw in too fast and damage the ring gear eventually 

[Tonz]

Apparently if you remove about 10% to 20% of the flyout weight it will not be destructive.

They say you can use a 6 volt starter on 12 volt a few times, but definitely not permanently. Unless you reduce that weight.

So I've been told by a very experienced, now retired auto electrician.

[hidden_hunter]

2 hours ago, Tonz said:

Apparently if you remove about 10% to 20% of the flyout weight it will not be destructive.

They say you can use a 6 volt starter on 12 volt a few times, but definitely not permanently. Unless you reduce that weight.

So I've been told by a very experienced, now retired auto electrician.

Though it comes down to the age old question, are you fixing the right thing? 

[32buick67]

Most 6V batteries are more than enough to start an engine, and as all so far have stated, its the way the car was originally designed and its likely something else is wrong.

I vote with the others, don't go after more volts, inspect and fix your problems, lest you cause more harm (bigger hammers don't always clear the path, especially with electrical components).

 

Whether you have overbuilt 3/0 wires like I have in my 1932 Buick, or 2AWG wires like many of the original and repro shops provide,  it won't matter if your battery is strong because the wire lengths are short and voltage drop doesn't matter for these cars until much smaller wire gauges are used (6awg, 10awg which will melt insulation), or you have a WEAK battery.  200-400amps of starting current across a 3/0 wire is virtually the same as 200-400amps across 2AWG wire as far as a ~6.5V battery is concerned. 

 

3/0 wire carrying DC400amps:

Will deliver about 5.9V to the starter (6.0V @ battery terminal)

Will deliver about 6.4V to the starter (6.5V @ battery terminal)

 

2AWG wire carrying DC400amps:

Will deliver about 5.7V to the starter (6.0V @ battery terminal)

Will deliver about 6.2V to the starter (6.5V @ battery terminal)

 

Key issues include: termination resistance (clean the lugs, contact points, wire connections, crimp connections, etc.), and apply dielectric or anti-corrosion grease to protect the connection AFTER you clean them and establish a well-performing starting process, and is your battery 'strong' or 'weak'. 

Spend $100-150 for a new battery, or spend weeks tinkering with resistors and other electrical hardware? 

 

After sitting for ~60 days, my car had about 5.9x volts on a 650cca Fleet Farm generic battery, and it slowly cranked to a start, died, restarted slowly a few times and then finally remained under petrol power long enough to start charge the battery.

Normally, the car will easily turn over rapidly cranking on less than 6.3V with a high rpm and then fire, and I am sure this isn't unique to pre-war 6V cars.

 

An 8V battery system might work for you, but unless you really know what you are doing and do all of the math and monitor the generator at all revs, you could cause more harm than good and end up paying a lot of $ to fix things which worked fine before they were boosted with an excessively high voltage.

 

Your car is sharp, I really like the color, its a fantastic car!

Your car is too nice to not check brushes, windings, bearings, engine resistance, etc.

Maybe folks on the forum can help resolve this real issue(s) so you can retain a 6V battery system and enjoy a wonderful driver!

Best,

Mario

[John Greenwood]

On 1/23/2022 at 6:51 PM, Tonz said:

Apparently if you remove about 10% to 20% of the flyout weight it will not be destructive.

They say you can use a 6 volt starter on 12 volt a few times, but definitely not permanently. Unless you reduce that weight.

So I've been told by a very experienced, now retired auto electrician.

You will find that pitch on a 6 volt started is greater “faster” the a 12 volt 

this is why when doing a 12 volt conversion it is best to use a modern starter but by doing so you open a can of worms so you may as well go and buy a new fire glass hot rod 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I have refrained as long as I CAN!!   I built the 248 in my 1950 in 2010.  In 2012, due to adding EFI which required 12V, I converted to 12V. At that time I cleaned up the flywheel teeth.  Which had been damaged over the original 95,000+ miles while using the 6V starter.  I retained the 6V starter which indeed did engage hard and run FAST.  In 2016, I believe, the drive gear [ bendix] stripped. I then bought a MODERN mini 12V starter from Tom Telesco.  When I later changed engines the flywheel was still not damaged. All told , about 15000 miles.

   That has been MY experience.  Others may vary.

 

  Ben

[John Greenwood]

The best way to make a old car driver friendly on a motor way is to change the gearbox to a turbo 700 with overdrive and a modern 12v starter motor and fit a ford 9 inch diff as they have many different diff ratios 

then you need to get your axles remade to suit your wheels but you can have disc brakes front and rear 

I’m going to keep my car as it was made 88 years ago and use a car trailer for long highway trips and not hold up the trucks snd traffic 

[Akstraw]

On 1/24/2022 at 11:23 PM, John Greenwood said:

The best way to make a old car driver friendly on a motor way is to change the gearbox to a turbo 700 with overdrive and a modern 12v starter motor and fit a ford 9 inch diff as they have many different diff ratios 

then you need to get your axles remade to suit your wheels but you can have disc brakes front and rear 

I’m going to keep my car as it was made 88 years ago and use a car trailer for long highway trips and not hold up the trucks snd traffic 

and don’t forget the SBC engine, Mustang II front end, and everything else made from “billet”, whatever that means.

[31nash880]

Since buying a 1931 nash last year with hard starting issues have heard of using an 8 volt battery . Have retained 6 volt so far and worked out motor issues . Just found this ad today. Of you read car came with 2 unit 6-8 volt battery.  What is it? Can I run an 8 volt without damage?

[61polara]

Nash apparently used this 6-8 volt battery through at least 1934.  It was not listed in 1937 and I don't have a reference for 1934 or 1936. I don't know what this battery was unless it was like the 6/12 volt batteries that were available through the 1960's or possibly latter.  Those batteries had two six volt batteries in a single case, with a starter solenoid mounted on top.  When the starter was engaged, it activated the solenoid on top of the battery, which connected the two 6 volt sections giving 12 volts for starting.  When the starter was released it reverted to 6 volts for running and the accessories.

[Bloo]

I'd love to see a wiring diagram showing that.

 

[31nash880]

Have never heard of a battery like that. Love the info you can find here. 

[61polara]

There was a 6/12 volt battery in a 1946 Dodge I bought about 1974.  I've searched for a picture of one with no luck.  Antique Auto Battery offer a setup using two 6 volt batteries, a large solenoid and relay.  It's a very complicated system.  Of course, they are no longer in business.  Two years ago, I purchased a 1941 Lincoln with this system installed.  When I had a cranking problem, I had to figure out this system.  I tracked down the supplier of the solenoid and found a wiring diagram for it, but it didn't use the relay.  I will be eleminating this are fixing the 6 volt system.

Edited January 31, 2022 by 61polara (see edit history)