Batteries

[Xander Wildeisen]

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/05/millions-electric-cars-are-coming-what-happens-all-dead-batteries

[Studemax]

Yup. In the rush to go all "green", no one bothered to figure out how to recycle these new batteries. Guess they aren't as green as they claim to be.

[rocketraider]

🙃

[John348]

8 hours ago, Studemax said:

Yup. In the rush to go all "green", no one bothered to figure out how to recycle these new batteries. Guess they aren't as green as they claim to be.

 

You honestly believe that? Time to take a step back and think about it, there is way to much money involved, if there is value to the materials contained in the batteries then somebody has figured out a way to extract those materials already. That process will only become more efficient to generate more profit 

Edited May 23, 2021 by John348 (see edit history)

[kgreen]

https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/blog/how-green-are-electric-cars/

 

There is much to learn yet.  Today's times seem to be a mirror of those times when the gasoline car was first produced.  Supply side industry developed fast with an untold number of auto manufacturers and fueling stations/pumps.  Pollution from automobiles wasn't seriously addressed until the late 60's or 70's.  I hear you John, there is a lot of money involved, but I am not entirely sure what is happening yet.

 

[rocketraider]

Batteries were one of the earliest items to be recycled. No reason EV batteries won't be; the materials are simply too valuable.

 

Now, whether it can be done economically or without creating a bigger environmental problem remains to be seen.

[60FlatTop]

Every Tuesday a big truck comes down my street and pretty much indiscriminately picks up what I figure represents to majority of the American GNP. They monkey around with it but the greatest percentage ends up in landfills or dumped in the ocean.

The United States has made a half-hearted attempt at recycling for 50 years and only cherry picked the potential.

 

All that waste garbage has created a lot of jobs and livelihood for many families. Imagine the economic conditions if Dad didn't spend his working career making garbage for the Tuesday pickup.

 

Rejected:

 

Go ahead, look through your garage and tell your kids how many jobs you find. Maybe they will remember.

Edited May 23, 2021 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Peter Gariepy]

Plenty of entrepreneurs picking up the opportunity to recycle EV batteries:

• https://www.globaltechenvironmental.com/recycling-services/battery-recycling/electric-vehicle
• https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/05/electric-vehicle-battery-recycling-circular-economy/
• https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56574779
• https://www.barrons.com/articles/this-ev-related-company-has-big-plans-to-recycle-batteries-51613505168

 

[misterc9]

 Those batteries have valuable elements in them that can't responsibly or safely be put in the dump. But for now a lot of them have negative recycle value. 

[Guest]

I say shoot them out into space and let some future generation deal with them.  It's the "American way".

...of course I suppose there's always the off chance they could get caught in our orbit and slowly spin closer and closer back to the planet until eventually they start plummeting back to earth in the millions, like hundred pound hail stones.   

Yes, a few decades trying to survive the horror and indiscriminate fallout from our own unchecked foray into the ungodly nether regions of electric automobiles  could make for some interesting future Netflix programming.  With Morgan Freeman starring as Sean Connery in "Attack of the Living Dead Batteries From Outer Space!"

Oh, the irony...

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by GregLaR (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Welp, if the electric cars don't solve all the problems, I guess we shouldn't try to solve some of them.

[Xander Wildeisen]

The military will shoot them down. https://youtu.be/raWZraPHLqM 

[Studemax]

I was referring to lithium-iron batteries which NO ONE has figured out how to recycle yet. Like the ones in the Chevy Volt or Tesla.

[37_Roadmaster_C]

Some years back I read a university project that tracked various aspects of various vehicles for their economic and environmental impacts from start to finish. Start to finish meant design to final recycling or disposal. At the time of the project, I believe the Toyota Prius was the only electric hybrid in production or close to it. The project did its best to track and quantify all aspects of the life of the vehicle. This included mining ores, creating metals, plastics, glass and fabrics. This included batteries. It attempted to calculate the impact of manufacturing processes such as smelting metals etc... It moved on to fuel economy and recycling after the vehicle was retired.  Now there are many variables here, some of which we really can not prove the accuracy of the evaluation. Now for the big reveal of the project........The most environmentally responsible vehicle class was.....  wait for it....  Full Sized SUV's. Yep, those soccer mom picnic boats!!  The electric hybrid was actually about half way down the chart. The reason was the batteries. The detail of the battery life was spooky. In a nut shell it revolved around the raw materials coming from South America, being shipped to Japan for processing and battery manufacture then being shipped back for final manufacturing and install and finally being minimally recyclable due to the heavy metals and the lack of processes to make recovery economically practical.  Things are always changing and it may get better.

  Now on totally electric vehicles....  Look at what it takes to generate the electricity to charge those cars and the inefficiencies in power storage and conversion.  I live in a 100% hydropower area with the lowest electricity cost in the US and electric cars are still not the most economic vehicle to own and drive.  We have a LONG way to go before we have vehicle responsibility figured out!!!

[prewar]

We haven't figured out how to, or been willing to responsibly mine the lithium thus far let alone considered the long term effects of the future waste products.

https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/the-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries/

[Restorer32]

Our local trash hauler/recycler was a bit upset a few years ago when a dead body came down the recycling conveyor. Apparently a guy fell asleep and/or died in a dumpster. 

[Matt Harwood]

51 minutes ago, prewar said:

We haven't figured out how to, or been willing to responsibly mine the lithium thus far let alone considered the long term effects of the future waste products.

https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/the-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries/

 

Just as an FYI, the "Institute for Energy Research" is a fossil fuel marketing organization founded by Charles Koch and headed by a former Enron executive. It supports expanding the role of coal, plus rolling back auto economy and emissions standards.

I wonder why they'd be against electric cars?

[Peter Gariepy]

11 hours ago, Studemax said:

I was referring to lithium-iron batteries which NO ONE has figured out how to recycle yet. Like the ones in the Chevy Volt or Tesla.

 

(not "iron", "ion")

 

You assume like it's a black and white issue. I googled "lithium ion batteries recycle" and found plenty of resources that recycle lithium-ion batteries:

• https://www.batteryrecyclersofamerica.com/lithium-ion-battery-recycling
• https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling
• https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/former-tesla-exec-inks-new-recycling-deal-as-battery-costs-soar-.html
• https://www.wired.com/story/the-race-to-crack-battery-recycling-before-its-too-late/

 

[TerryB]

In the movie the Graduate, Dustin Hoffman’s character was given the advice “plastics” as the next big thing.  In 2021 the buzz word is “batteries”.  It’s no secret the success of electric transportation relies on battery technology advances.  The next gold rush is in battery technology and the lure of big money to be had will continue that push until the next big thing comes along in somewhere in the next 5 to 50 years.

[46 woodie]

I really think the push for all electric cars is moving at too fast of a pace. Cars today are running cleaner and get more milage than ever before. There are so many unanswered questions that need to be addressed. We all will need to change our way of living. One of the biggest hurdles I have read about is charging time, versus travel time. Now when we travel long distances, when we need gas, we simply pull into a service station and fill up taking about five minutes total. With electric car's however, charging time will take exactly that, time. For around town driving you can pull into your garage and use a low power charger that can charge your car over night. I have read that charging an electric car quickly like on the Interstate, in order to go another 300 miles, can take up to an hour or more and that is only with a high power type charger. If I decide to drive to Florida from New York, how will that work out? Will there be enough charging stations available? Think about how many cars pull into a rest stop on a major cross country highway and fill up with gas. Probably a few hundred in an hour. Will we need rest stops with several hundred charging stations to accommodate all the car's that need charging? How much will each charge cost? Where is all this electric power coming from, will we need to build more electric generating plants? I see a lot of manufacturers building electric cars but don't see many charging stations being built. Is it even possible travel "coast to coast" with an electric car? Also what about used electric cars? I keep my cars in a like new condition. I have them serviced at regular intervals, washed weekly and detailed once a year. I have a "runaround car" that I use every day and my newer cars all have very low milage on them. In 8 or 10 years, if I decide to sell one of my new cars, that is in pristine  condition, who is going to purchase it knowing that they will need to invest about $5000 for a new battery? Will there be a glut of nice used cars that all need batteries? There are just too many unanswered question and I can't seem to get a straight and honest answer from anyone and in fact I don't think anyone knows!

[prewar]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Just as an FYI, the "Institute for Energy Research" is a fossil fuel marketing organization founded by Charles Koch and headed by a former Enron executive. It supports expanding the role of coal, plus rolling back auto economy and emissions standards.

I wonder why they'd be against electric cars?

That may be, but the it doesn't change the facts. There are many other organizations and scientist that can verify the environmental impacts of mining lithium and the flat out refusal of certain countries to enforce or even try to maintain any standards of environmental protection. Right now it's a "meet demand no matter what the cost market , and we'll worry about the environment only when or if someone makes us."

[JACK M]

22 minutes ago, 46 woodie said:

Will there be a glut of nice used cars that all need batteries?

 

Have you shopped for a golf car lately?

They all need new batteries, that's why they are for sale and also why used gas golf cars are in demand.

I guess gas golf cars are against the law in CA, I was in Palm Springs a few years ago and went to a GC dealer as my brother was shopping.

Pallets of batteries there.

The batteries cost more that the value of your typical used electric GC and will need new ones in a few more years.

I don't see that as a very good personal investment. 

I say this with the 'global warming' in mind.

Kinda scary for our kids.

[prewar]

Interesting story about the carbon footprint break even point for electric vehicles.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/battery-batteries-electric-cars-carbon-sustainable-power-energy/

[mike6024]

There was a detailed report on battery recycling on CBS radio news this morning.  I think it was an interview with someone connected with Tesla. One thing stood out is that he said the batteries are expected to last the life of the vehicle, which is 11 years.  The journalist thought that was good because that means the batteries don't need to be recycled more than once during the life of the car. I thought that was bad because it means the whole, expensive car is expected to be valueless in only 11 years.

 

You can listen to it here - https://www.audacy.com/kcbsradio/podcasts/kcbs-on-demand-20757/califonia-aims-to-have-mostly-electric-vehicles-by-2035-392094782

 

[Flivverking]

I just had a thought. What happens when the day comes of mass EV conversion,then during a major weather event hundreds of  thousands of families loose power and water etc. for a week or more and in the first few days or so your stranded and can’t help yourself out of the mess?  Are all our emergency vehicles always going to be gasoline ? 

 

[46 woodie]

Mike, that was exactly one of my points. Who would purchase a used car if they knew they had to spend several grand to keep it running? What I have read is that battery life was closer to seven years though. I wish these know nothing politicians hired a team of experts to try to enlighten them on the true facts about electric vehicles before issuing all these mandates.

[John348]

17 minutes ago, 46 woodie said:

Mike, that was exactly one of my points. Who would purchase a used car if they knew they had to spend several grand to keep it running? What I have read is that battery life was closer to seven years though. I wish these know nothing politicians hired a team of experts to try to enlighten them on the true facts about electric vehicles before issuing all these mandates.

 

That statement rings true for any used car. 

[Xander Wildeisen]

28 minutes ago, Flivverking said:

I just had a thought. What happens when the day comes of mass EV conversion,then during a major weather event hundreds of  thousands of families loose power and water etc. for a week or more and in the first few days or so your stranded and can’t help yourself out of the mess?  Are all our emergency vehicles always going to be gasoline ? 

 

In the event of an emergency, your seat will become a flotation device.

[trimacar]

Green is popular, so no reason in the world to emphasize any of the pitfalls or drawbacks of electric vehicles, or any green initiative.  
 

Just had a neighbor have solar panels installed on roof.  What’s the payback, I asked. Huh?  Um, how long before the expensive system pays for itself?  Uh, well, they say our utility bills will go down. That’s great! But no real numbers.

 

 It’s an older roof, so I asked,  when you have to replace the roof in a few years,  who removes panels and reinstalls?  Huh?  Never thought of that..

 

Point being that solutions which look great in the short term have long term implications, a fact lost on many.

[trimacar]

Just now, Xander Wildeisen said:

In the event of an emergency, your seat will become a flotation device.

And, according to most airlines, you can keep the flotation device as a souvenir of the trip!

 

 

[car crazy]

37 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Green is popular, so no reason in the world to emphasize any of the pitfalls or drawbacks of electric vehicles, or any green initiative.  
 

Just had a neighbor have solar panels installed on roof.  What’s the payback, I asked. Huh?  Um, how long before the expensive system pays for itself?  Uh, well, they say our utility bills will go down. That’s great! But no real numbers.

 

 It’s an older roof, so I asked,  when you have to replace the roof in a few years,  who removes panels and reinstalls?  Huh?  Never thought of that..

 

Point being that solutions which look great in the short term have long term implications, a fact lost on many.

David, you nailed it!   that last line applies to so many things that are happening in our "new world"!

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by car crazy (see edit history)

[37_Roadmaster_C]

@trimacarhas it absolutely right. I am not a tree huger, but I do try to be responsible with the environment. If you look at the total cost and liabilities of an investment to protect the environment things become very clouded very quickly. I will NEVER own a 100% electric vehicle. My reasoning is simple... If the vehicle has a fueled back-up power source, you will never be stuck with a dead battery. I say never excluding major mechanical failures or lack of maintenance... I do not need a full performance fuel engine in reserve, just something that can limp me home at 25 MPH or more. I live in a rural area and 100  mile trips are not uncommon. In my area I can count on one hand the number of public charging stations available.  Another thing to think about is licence fees. In Washington State there is now a fee for hybrid and electric vehicles above the regular licence fees. I have a friend with a 2001 Toyota Prius and he just got hit with a $75.00 adder because the car is a hybrid. The reason? The car uses less gasoline and therefore does not pay as much fuel tax to support road maintenance. This same friend also has a Geo Metro and the Geo actually gets better miles per gallon of gas than the Prius and does not pay the adder.  How it this fair and reasonable? OK, rant off, sorry......

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, 46 woodie said:

Mike, that was exactly one of my points. Who would purchase a used car if they knew they had to spend several grand to keep it running? What I have read is that battery life was closer to seven years though. I wish these know nothing politicians hired a team of experts to try to enlighten them on the true facts about electric vehicles before issuing all these mandates.

 

Yeah, it's not like I'd buy a used gasoline-powered car and it would have a hidden hole in the block or anything, right?

 

Oh, wait a minute.

[trimacar]

The average total state and local taxes on a gallon of gasoline  in the United States, (read road use tax and so forth) is slightly over 50 cents per gallon.

 

So, electric vehicles, now, don’t pay that.

 

Does one really think the municipalities and states will give up that income without a fight?  Or, won’t respond and raise taxes elsewhere?  Maybe higher personal property tax on electrics?

 

The law of unintended consequences.  Research it, it’s real...and not widely understood in certain elite circles...

[trimacar]

2 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Yeah, it's not like I'd buy a used gasoline-powered car and it would have a hidden hole in the block or anything, right?

 

Oh, wait a minute.

Sad and funny, but more of the former...empathy abounds for you....

 

 

[Frank DuVal]

4 hours ago, Flivverking said:

What happens when the day comes of mass EV conversion,then during a major weather event hundreds of  thousands of families loose power and water etc. for a week or more and in the first few days or so your stranded and can’t help yourself out of the mess?

 

So where do you get fuel for your vehicle if the power is out? Power out is power out, it does not know if the power is to charge a battery or run a pump. I've never seen a generator at a service station in these parts.

 

With a Tesla Power Wall, you could stay at home and have lights/heat/AC and fresh food. For how long? I have no clue, I just know they are available accessories.

 

It is possible to get your solar array to work when the power is out, to provide house power when the lines are down, but that is optional for extra money. It has to do with synchronizing your system with the power when it comes back on and a battery back up storage system. Most people do not opt for this option, so they have no power when the lines are down.

[wws944]

13 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

.... Is it even possible travel "coast to coast" with an electric car?  ... There are just too many unanswered question and I can't seem to get a straight and honest answer from anyone and in fact I don't think anyone knows!

 

There are honest answers for all your questions.  But let me focus on a couple:

 

It is certainly possible to travel coast to coast in a EV.  Many Tesla owners routinely do cross-country road trips.  I've done a few long trips myself.  Between the long range of the cars and the Tesla Supercharging network, it is actually quite easy.  The optimal strategy is a bit different than in a ICE car though.  (And admittedly in the non-Tesla EV world things are less well developed.)

 

I might add that the current EV "Cannonball" record, from the Red Ball Garage in NYC to the Portofino Hotel in Redondo Beach CA, is 44 hours 26 minutes.  Done in a Porsche Taycan a few months ago.  Of course it is slower than the current ICE record, but still quite good.

 

As far as battery recycling goes, while lithium isn't a very valuable metal - it is very abundant, other metals like cobalt and nickel certainly are worth recovering.  So yes - there are a lot of efforts underway to recycle EV batteries.  Lithium-based batteries do tend to last a lot longer than the lead-acid batteries we are all used to though.  And the degradation is gradual over the years - rather than sudden failures.  Elon stated a while back that the Model 3 was validated to 1 million miles, except that the battery pack was only validated to 300k miles.  His goal has been to stretch the battery pack to last 1 million miles as well.  He said SpaceX is already using cells that could do it, but they aren't economically feasible for cars yet.

Edited May 25, 2021 by wws944 (see edit history)

[wws944]

4 hours ago, trimacar said:

The average total state and local taxes on a gallon of gasoline  in the United States, (read road use tax and so forth) is slightly over 50 cents per gallon.

 

So, electric vehicles, now, don’t pay that.

 

Does one really think the municipalities and states will give up that income without a fight?  Or, won’t respond and raise taxes elsewhere?  Maybe higher personal property tax on electrics?

 

The law of unintended consequences.  Research it, it’s real...and not widely understood in certain elite circles...

 

California is already charging EV owners $150/year in extra registration fees to cover the loss of road tax revenue from gas sales.  Other states are doing likewise.

[wws944]

21 minutes ago, wws944 said:

It is certainly possible to travel coast to coast in a EV.  Many Tesla owners routinely do cross-country road trips.  I've done a few long trips myself.  Between the long range of the cars and the Tesla Supercharging network, it is actually quite easy.  The optimal strategy is a bit different than in a ICE car though.  (And admittedly in the non-Tesla EV world things are less well developed.)

 

For example - a trip I intend to make soon, from my house near San Jose CA to my daughter and son-in-laws place near Seattle.  I ran the trip through ABetterRoutePlanner (https://abetterrouteplanner.com/) specifying my Model 3, and 10% over the speed limit.  ABRP shows the trip would take 12 hours 55 minutes of driving, and 1 hour 21 minutes of mid-trip charging.  The charging will be spread over five Supercharging stops that are from 10 to 22 minutes each.  The stops can easily be overlapped with bio breaks (e.g., restroom, getting snacks/meals, walking around a bit to keep blood flowing in ones limbs, etc.)  That isn't too bad - especially considering I'll likely be splitting the trip into two days anyway.  So the trip time really isn't much different than I'd spend doing it in an ICE car.

[bryankazmer]

I accept your data on driving and refueling times (and I'm not anti-EV), but  I don't necessarily come to the same conclusion.  Ten percent longer is significant if you are looking at doing 600 - 800 miles in a single day instead of two. Put another way, the refueling time is the equivalent of another 100 miles.  If you've already decided it's a two day trip, the difference is less important I agree.

 

Wouldn't the more difficult case to study be a winter trip in the north?  What I've seen on real world EV ranges in cold weather has been quite variable.