EV- The weather is changing

[Str8-8-Dave]

says Mary Barra at GM in a Detroit Free Press article announcing the new Cadillac Lyriq for 2023.  After it's introduction GM plans no new Cadillac models with internal combustion engines, only freshening of the existing models.  In 2030 Cadillac says they will leave the decade as an EV only vehicle line.  Mary Barra, in a recent press interview also stated GM plans to have 35 electric vehicles on the market by 2025, based on their "Ultium" high tech battery platform which will also be used in the EV version of the Hummer...

 

 

[plymouthcranbrook]

I guess that’s nice but for me personally I will(baring unexpecteds) be 80 then and just can’t see the need to change over.

[rocketraider]

Ms. Barra needs to start pushing improvements and upgrades to the country's electric infrastructure. An EV is useless without a reliable way to charge it.

[1935Packard]

3 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Ms. Barra needs to start pushing improvements and upgrades to the country's electric infrastructure. An EV is useless without a reliable way to charge it.

 

For better or worse, I suspect the upgraded infrastructure for EV is coming.  

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/31/us-ev-charging-system-a-priority-under-bidens-2-trillion-infrastructure-plan.html

[TerryB]

Get out the dead horse, it’s time to start beating him again.  This topic has been discussed so many times and the for or against EV groups have made their points so many times I’m not sure what’s left to discuss.  Unless you have been on Mars for the last 20 years this is old news.  Today is Earth Day so expect more info like this to be in the news today and most of the week.

[8E45E]

8 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Ms. Barra needs to start pushing improvements and upgrades to the country's electric infrastructure. An EV is useless without a reliable way to charge it.

We already have enough issues with 'peak electrical loads' being exceeded during certain times of the day when its extremely hot, or extremely cold outside, and get nicely asked to turn down our a/c units, or use our appliances at different times of the day by the utility company when it occurs.  Imagine what's going to happen when the entire nation's vehicles go electric.

 

Craig

Edited April 22, 2021 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

12 hours ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

Mary Barra, in a recent press interview also stated GM plans to have 35 electric vehicles on the market by 2025... 

 

And I suppose all of them with 4 doors,

and available mostly in black, white, and 

shades of gray.

 

I agree that the electrical-vehicle topic

has been discussed to death, and there's

no need to continue it.  We can simply

look up a past thread.

 

Meanwhile, I'll be enjoying my Cadillacs from

the time when they were colorful, powerful,

and desirable!

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[padgett]

Is kinda like the Eisenhower Interstate initiative without building any refineries. Charging stations are wonderful but where do they plug in ? Geothermal maybe ?

 

Think maybe if all new cars are EV there'll be a glut of dino ? Suspect I'll keep my Caddys also.

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by padgett (see edit history)

[Digger914]

A Tesla on auto pilot hit a tree and it burned for how many hours? and took how many gallons of water to extinguish?

We are going to need more infrastructure than charging stations to fill the highways with modern electric vehicles. We are going to need a super fast fire suppression system that works on these batteries, or a lot of urns for the ashes of their occupants. 

[Ronnie]

9 minutes ago, Digger914 said:

A Tesla on auto pilot hit a tree and it burned for how many hours? and took how many gallons of water to extinguish?

We are going to need more infrastructure than charging stations to fill the highways with modern electric vehicles. We are going to need a super fast fire suppression system that works on these batteries, or a lot of urns for the ashes of their occupants. 

 

I imagine someone said something similar when gas vehicles first hit the roads and started catching fire. Up to that point no one had saw a horse catch fire when it ran off the road. We have to prepare for the future and it appears electric vehicles are going to be what our grandchildren will be driving. It only makes sense that we start making changes now to ensure their safety in the future.

[1912Staver]

To me the electric car debate hides the fact that if we are actually going to reduce mankind's carbon footprint it's not going to be achieved by dumping vast sums into EV's.  Even if we all drove EV's it would not be the needed solution. At best EV's { current state of the art } only slightly shrink the overall carbon footprint.

  The actual actions needed to accomplish the solution to the world wide problem are almost beyond comprehension .

[padgett]

I cannot provide a citation (may have been in one of Clymer's books) but remember something about the first two cars in Boston (or maybe Ohio) colliding. Must be human nature. Autopilots are only as good as their programming. Flight control computers (quad programming for "hard ride" at near mach numbers is interesting. (Motto was "you make a mistake and someone else makes a large smoking hole in the ground").

[plymouthcranbrook]

I continue to wonder why there is never any real world mention of fuel cells to power vehicles.  I get the issues with hydrogen transfer but couldn’t that be solved?  Perhaps one of you can enlighten me.

[Flivverking]

I won't live long enough to ever see any large mainstream conversion to EV vehicles. ( there is too much greed, money invested and to much money to still be made! on burning up oils).

 To bad though ,as I'll never see the  after-market parts ,accessories and high performance catalogs for Electric Auto-Buggies of the future..

 

"Hey Kenny,what you doing this weekend,I 'll bring over some beer?"

 

"Common over man ,you can help me put on the new kick ass chrome field coil cover on my  Ben Franklin Lightning Bolt 5000 coupe and install  super duty 700 strand battery cables with this cool lime green loom."

 

"O.K. I'll be there"

 

 

 

[avgwarhawk]

EV is only part of the overall means for transportation.  EV will not become the answer all.  LP gas, hydrogen, fossil fuel will need to be part of the entire picture.  

[John348]

6 hours ago, TerryB said:

Get out the dead horse, it’s time to start beating him again.  This topic has been discussed so many times and the for or against EV groups have made their points so many times I’m not sure what’s left to discuss.  Unless you have been on Mars for the last 20 years this is old news.  Today is Earth Day so expect more info like this to be in the news today and most of the week.

 

AMEN Brother Terry!

 

We went down this road on this same topic for 10 or 12 pages a few weeks ago, no need to do it again 

Edited April 22, 2021 by John348 (see edit history)

[padgett]

But now we have had decrees made and money allocated (not for the right things but what the hay).

[46 woodie]

I retired from firefighting after serving for 25 years in an engine company in my city. Although I retired in 1996, I still keep up with my brother's in the fire service and still read any fire related bulletins, that get sent to the firehouse. Firefighting of electric vehicles is still very new to the fire service, it's a totally different animal. The N.T.S.B. estimates that over half of the fire departments in America, are not equipped to fight and extinguish electric vehicle fires. The United States Fire Administration estimates that electric vehicle fires burn at over 5000 degrees. Standard procedure now is to use copious amounts of water such as from a two and one half inch master stream or multiple, one and three quarter hand lines. Any pumper that uses that much water must be tied into a fire hydrant. We are lucky in my fire department, as we are a city and have fire hydrants throughout the city, so water supply is not an issue. Rural fire company's will need to rely on water tankers and mutual aid from surrounding communities. The day's of keeping a small fire extinguisher in the trunk of your car in case of fire are over. 

[mike6024]

I had thought water was what you did not want to use on an electrical fire. I seem to even remember that being taught in some safety class, something like refinery safety or construction safety practices.

 

It seems not much can be done once the battery ignites. Mainly you want to prevent the fire from spreading beyond the vehicle, to the surroundings.

 

 

[padgett]

Small extinguisher is to put driver/passenger out.

 

Lessee: EV plus mice = ?

[rocketraider]

46 woodie and mike6024- You hate to be this cynical, but the people beating the drum loudest for wholesale conversion to electric vehicles quite simply have not thought that far ahead.

 

That often happens when ideology and dogma take center stage. Kill a few firefighters and EMTs? They'd blow that off as collateral damage.

 

Look how long it took NHTSA to push thru upgraded auto safety equipment.

[mike6024]

 

Cadillac

 

 

Audi RS

 

 

 

Look at the "styling" of these things. It's converging to "crossover SUV."

 

[George Cole]

Maannn!  You don't need no stinkin' EV charging infrastructure.  Just mandate that every new house, condo, apartment, etc., built be required to install one of these.  Charging problems solved!

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by George Cole (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I'd soon as not behold! 👀

[ply33]

7 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

Look at the "styling" of these things. It's converging to "crossover SUV."

Since the “crossover SUV” segment is the hottest car segment world wide that isn’t too surprising.

[Terry Bond]

If I remember correctly, this is an antique car forum.  The only electrics that interest me are pre-war.

Terry

[Peter Gariepy]

8 hours ago, 8E45E said:

We already have enough issues with 'peak electrical loads' being exceeded during certain times of the day when its extremely hot, or extremely cold outside, and get nicely asked to turn down our a/c units, or use our appliances at different times of the day by the utility company when it occurs.  Imagine what's going to happen when the entire nation's vehicles go electric.

 

Craig

 

This isn't going to happen overnight. Electric companies will certainly meet the challenge. It will increase their business afterall. 

[46 woodie]

Mike6024, true NEVER put water on an electrical fire. However you aren't talking that type of electrical fire, we're talking a car fire. At this point, until the fire service can come up with a procedure or some sort of extinguisher, literally drowning the fire and keeping it flooded and cool is the only way to extinguish it. Firefighters call it "surround and drown". Have you seen the remains of an electric car after a fire, not much left! I have heard it described as fighting the "China Syndrome" of electric cars.

[padgett]

Sounds like you just try to protect whatever is around it.

[wws944]

Sigh.  So many inaccuracies and misconceptions in this thread...

 

Electric grid can easily handle the extra load.  Charging is generally done at home in the middle of the night - when there is excess capacity.  Remember it takes a lot of energy to pump/transport crude, refine it, and pump/transport/pump gasoline too.  All that disappears with EVs.

 

The accident in Texas a few days ago had nothing to do with FSD or autopilot.  Car wasn't equipped with FSD software and no way basic autopilot was engageable on the residential road where it happened.  No lines painted on the road for the cameras to use as reference.  (Per Elon.) Fire was quickly put out, though they continued to use some water to keep the pack cool.

 

H2 for passenger cars is stupid for many well-documented reasons.

 

Barra sees the writing on the wall.  If Caddy (and GM in general) are to survive, they MUST make the transition.  Lyriq looks like it could be a great car.  I'd consider one in a few years.

 

That said, I am in the process of dumping some dinero into my neglected old Porsche to make it really drivable again.  Just an occasional weekend driver, like my Reatta.  Will never go back to daily driving an ICE car.   EVs are so much better for daily driving tasks...

[rocketraider]

1 hour ago, wws944 said:

Sigh.  So many inaccuracies and misconceptions in this thread...

 

Electric grid can easily handle the extra load. 

37 years in the electric utility industry taught me otherwise, and I was not in an area where the grid is currently as (con)strained as it is in, say, California. Or any other region where population and development have outpaced electrical supply. Certain elements want EVs right now, but these same people will buck any effort to upgrade infrastructure to support them. These people won't accept they can't have it both ways. It is not an either-or proposition.

 

Most people who clamor for EVs right here right now and who want ICE vehicles gone, no matter the impact, do not understand what goes on "behind the wall" with electricity (thanks John348 for that phrase!). For people who think electricity is the answer to everything they sure put up a fight to keep it from being produced and transported.

 

Maybe they should tie a key to a kite and moor it to the eaves of their home?

[Peter Gariepy]

20 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

people will buck any effort to upgrade infrastructure to support them. These people won't accept they can't have it both ways. It is not an either-or proposition.

 

do not understand what goes on "behind the wall" with electricity ... they sure put up a fight to keep it from being produced and transported.

 

I don't dispute your knowledge.... BUT...  here are my thoughts..

 

The "people" you refer to is unclear. If "People" buy EVs, they will expect and demand the ability to charge their EVs at home.  I fully expect "people" will not "fight" or "buck any effort" to upgrade infrastructure.

 

"People" in Texas for example are not going to tolerate another grid outage like what happened recently.

 

Regardless, electric grid infrastructure isn't decided by the voters but instead the needs of the electric companies and by Corporation Commissions in different states.  Electric companies are for profit. The laws of demand and supply remain the same. IF there is demand, I'm 100% sure the electric companies will find a way to supply it.

 

Car manufacturers are not stupid either. EVs will not sell if there is no electricity to charge them. It's in their political interest to support common sense infrastructure bills to improve the power grid.  Much the same way car manufacturers have supported roads and gasoline production and distribution.

 

At the risk of getting political there is a federal infrastructure bill being discussed and negotiated even as we speak.  The electrical grid is very much a part of it.  https://www.naturalgasintel.com/biden-looking-to-overhaul-nations-power-grid-transit-systems-in-historic-infrastructure-plan/. 

 

This is also NOT an overnight need.  Even if every new car sold next year was an EV, thats still only a drop in the bucket of the total number of cars on the road. It will take 10-20 years before EV is more than 50% of the cars on the road.

[Str8-8-Dave]

For my part of this my reason for posting was I believe a milestone is being marked where we are approaching sunset of one era of the automobile and sunrise of another.  If Mary Barra, GM, Ford, Chrysler and the rest of the automakers are successful with electric vehicles it signals sunset of the internal combustion engine in personal transportation.  It would be a milestone like going from horse and buggy to buggies with engines which evolved into modern automobiles.   Yes it has been discussed, I was just pointing out a significant development along the way.  In my dream world eventually battery charging could be done by solar panel array or wind turbine.  The infrastructure bill is another huge milestone if it happens, related to how we get our energy and the effect on global warming and the environment at large.  The ideal would be to create jobs to re-employ workers displaced in coal and fossil fuel industries.  The alternative is to fall behind other countries that are working on this stuff with a passion because it relates to survival in an ever more crowded world.  

 

The plaque on the doorway of Bill Ford Sr's doorway at Ford World Headquarters had a bust of a reptile and the words

 

"Observe the turtle- it never advances except it's neck is stuck out"...

[Peter Gariepy]

30 minutes ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

It would be a milestone like going from horse and buggy to buggies with engines which evolved into modern automobiles.  

 

We are on the same page, but...

 

Im not sure I agree with your analogy.   Switching from ICE to EV isnt as big a milestone.

In 120 years we've seen steam, electric, and gas powered vehicles. ICE certainly is the vast majority of them. Even fuel types have changes:  Gas, Diesel (popular in Europe), an CNG (popular in many 3rd world countries). But the car remains the car. I think we as car enthusiasts forget that the majority of car buyers don't know or care whats under the hood.  They focus on the utility value, the panache, and economics of owning a car.  The power plant and energy source is way down the list of importance.

 

EVs are quieter, pollute less, are more powerful, and cheater to "fill up".  People will buy them for these reasons.

[Peter Gariepy]

1 hour ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

It would be a milestone like going from horse and buggy to buggies with engines which evolved into modern automobiles.  

 

Self driving cars would be a milestone.  

A much more radical paradigm than motor/engine and power source.

[46 woodie]

wws944, you need to check your facts. According to CNN News it took the firefighters over 4 hours to extinguish the fire and used 32,000 gallons of water, that's right 32,000. We, (Firefighters) have taken less time to extinguish raging building fires!

[rocketraider]

I daresay a highly efficient solar panel could be designed into a vehicle's roof panel. Charge the batteries while driving or parked. Granted I don't keep up with the latest EV engineering but I don't recall seeing this proffered as a solution. Works for satellites and space probes, why not a wheeled road vehicle?

[mike6024]

I would think you would want foam on a Lithium battery fire to starve it of oxygen.

 

[wws944]

1 minute ago, 46 woodie said:

wws944, you need to check your facts. According to CNN News it took the firefighters over 4 hours to extinguish the fire and used 32,000 gallons of water, that's right 32,000. We, (Firefighters) have taken less time to extinguish raging building fires!

 

 Anything CNN says I take with a huge grain of salt.

 

I'd post a link the TMC (teslamotorsclub dot com) thread on the tragic accident, but it looks like this forum won't let me.  It is in the "Autopilot & Autonomous/FSD" sub forum.  A couple of the posters in the thread live in subdivisions surrounding the accident site and are familiar with the road in question.  A lot of conspiracy theorist postings too...  Warning: Thread is 43 pages long as of now.

 

[wws944]

39 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

I daresay a highly efficient solar panel could be designed into a vehicle's roof panel. Charge the batteries while driving or parked. Granted I don't keep up with the latest EV engineering but I don't recall seeing this proffered as a solution. Works for satellites and space probes, why not a wheeled road vehicle?

 

Well, a number of companies have offered solar roofs in their cars for years.  Generally they run the HVAC blower when the car is parked on a hot day to keep the interior cooler.  That, and trickle charge the 12V battery.

 

More interesting is charging the traction battery in a hybrid or full EV.  Back of the envelope: Assume there is about 1 kW of energy that falls on a square meter of space at high noon under optimal conditions, and that is about the amount of space available on the roof of a car.  Affordable solar panels are about 20-ish percent efficiency range.  So you might get 200 W out of one under optimal conditions.  Clearly not much to power a car with.  That said, Hyundai/Kia have started offering a 200W panel on some of their hybrid cars.  So here in California, it would generate around 1 kWh a day in the summer.  That is good for about 3-4 free miles/day.  In the winter it would be much worse.  So on average, figure about 2 miles/day year 'round.