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EV- The weather is changing


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5 hours ago, wws944 said:

Legitimate gripe for AACA members who eventually start to collect EVs will be that the $150/year fee will be a PITA for infrequently driven cars...

 

At least they will be exempt from emissions testing!  :)

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Florida gives a discount on license fees for cars over 30 (most of mine).

Suspect the real sockittoyou is going to be taxes on excess energy consumption. Collections won't use much. DDs will.

EVs are in a "golden era" right now of incentives and minimal effective taxation. Enjoy it while it lasts.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, padgett said:

Florida gives a discount on license fees for cars over 30 (most of mine).

Suspect the real sockittoyou is going to be taxes on excess energy consumption. Collections won't use much. DDs will.

EVs are in a "golden era" right now of incentives and minimal effective taxation. Enjoy it while it lasts.


 

Yup......the manure is gonna hit the fan on EV’s and hybrids.......... supplemental tax bills.......get ready.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Everyone is too stressed out about the minutiae over what EVs will mean; don't fret - the market will make it as attractive possible for you to switch over, and then will hit you with all the fun "extras." 
 

Besides, it's all seemingly cyclical technology anyway. We should be talking about the return of steam...

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Posted (edited)

Having learned to drive a car at the age of seven years old on a 1906 Stanley, I’m not anxious to get back to steam 48 years later............

 

Would like to thrash a Doble around for a few hundred miles..............

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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7 hours ago, padgett said:

My point is that it would be easy to detect an EV charger in a home and add a "road and luxury" tax to the electric bill

 

As opposed to other high current devices? They can guess, but they do not know. I get a report from my power company about my useage. It says how much they attribute to water heating. Great, as I have propane tankless.....😆  That circuit board does not pull that much current! And I use my electric oven running overnight to dehydrate stuff or cook brisket (after smoking of course👍) or cook greens (takes 12+ hours low and slow for collards to break down the pork fat). I'm sure the overnight cooking upsets their algorithm. 

5 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

At least they will be exempt from emissions testing!

Ours already are (emissions testing stops at 25 years old for those northern counties/cities that have it).

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Pretty sure nothing else in my house would pull as much current as an EV overnight charger. Biggest long term draw (and suspect it cycles often particularly for use you mention) would be oven and mine is on a 30A circuit. AC is high load at startup, running power is much lower

 

Even easier if the EV charger is required to identify itself to the power company (don't laugh, would be easy, Duke Power can interrogate their power meters now.)

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Make EVs more expensive to register. I'm OK with that. I don't mind kicking in my fair share to help the greater good. I'm obviously in the minority on that, but it seems a reasonable way to recover some lost revenues without being intrusive in terms of privacy or monitoring.

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PA’s annual safety inspection already records miles driven between vehicle inspections.  The annual registration for the automobile also requests the current mileage be recorded on the renewal form so at least here in PA mileage tracking is already in place.  Even with the present high gas tax the state is financially unable to pay for big Highway repair projects like bridges so talk of adding tolls to the bridges is ongoing. With less gas tax income there will be no choice but to add some kind of EV surcharge to make up the difference as the EV market grows.  
 

 

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Ohio already charges a surcharge to register electrics. Ohio charges $100 additional per year for a pure hybrid and anything that plugs into the wall pays $200.  Thats just to replace Ohio's gas tax of $.385 per gal. Its been in effect here for at least 3 years. An ICE car that gets 25 MPG can drive almost 13,000 miles per year before it pays $200 Ohio gas tax. At 30 MPG it equals over 16,000 miles. 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, jdome said:

Ohio already charges a surcharge to register electrics. Ohio charges $100 additional per year for a pure hybrid and anything that plugs into the wall pays $200.  Thats just to replace Ohio's gas tax of $.385 per gal. Its been in effect here for at least 3 years. An ICE car that gets 25 MPG can drive almost 13,000 miles per year before it pays $200 Ohio gas tax. At 30 MPG it equals over 16,000 miles. 

 

 

56.9 cents per gallon total when you include the federal tax in Ohio. PA is 54.7 cents state and another 18.4 for the federal tax. PA diesel is 75.4 cents plus another 24.4 federal tax.

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A true "Smart Meter" includes a smart panel as well. Because all of the high energy appliances: heater, AC, hot water, and other 220 appliances like stove, dryer and your EV charger are all on dedicated circuits, your utility can remotely interrogate these devices individually. They can turn them off or throttle thermostats in order to prevent blackouts when generation is limited, if the wind stops blowing or sun goes down.  CA has been operating with smart meter systems for several years. Not working well for them.  As smart metering will become standardized around the country and one way to force owners of older homes to install SM's is require them to upgrade the home to code and add things SM's & GFI's when you pull a permit to add a 220 circuit to your garage. That can turn a $500 job into $5,000 real quick. 

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1 hour ago, jdome said:

. . .  CA has been operating with smart meter systems for several years. Not working well for them. . .

Source for this?

 

I was in the PG&E service area when they swapped out the meters and there were complaints about higher bills due to higher readings. Near as I can tell, while some of those were due to faulty units from one supplier, many were due to the old meters being out of calibration and reading low. There was no change in power readings for my house nor for anyone I knew.

 

I am currently in the SDG&E service area and I have not heard or read about problems with smart meters here.

 

When I do a web search the more authoritative sources listing problems are all from when the meters were first being installed 15 years ago. Current (or undated) articles all seem to be on sites that have as much credibility to me as ones claiming 5G wireless and COVID are related.

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27 minutes ago, ply33 said:

Source for this?

 

 

When I do a web search the more authoritative sources listing problems are all from when the meters were first being installed 15 years ago. Current (or undated) articles all seem to be on sites that have as much credibility to me as ones claiming 5G wireless and COVID are related.

 

Whoa. Hold on to your panties. I must not have been clear. I was NOT referring to the meters themselves but the plan to install smart meter systems so the utility could ration electric to prevent blackouts. CA still has blackouts and brown outs. Just my observation.

 

5G has not been implemented yet.  4G implementation was completed in the US about the end of 2019.  COVID would be more associated with the timing of 4G.

Why ??? Do you know something ????

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2 hours ago, jdome said:

 

Whoa. Hold on to your panties. I must not have been clear. I was NOT referring to the meters themselves but the plan to install smart meter systems so the utility could ration electric to prevent blackouts. CA still has blackouts and brown outs. Just my observation.

 

5G has not been implemented yet.  4G implementation was completed in the US about the end of 2019.  COVID would be more associated with the timing of 4G.

Why ??? Do you know something ????

Near as I can tell, service cut offs due to demand exceeding supply or potential wild land fire issues is being done at the grid distribution level not at the individual customer meter level. The state and utilities have programs were larger users of electricity can either voluntarily or automatically have their use reduced or turned off. All the programs I have heard about work by incentives (lower electrical charges) rather than being forced on anyone.

 

5G has been implemented and is being rolled out by T-Mobile, Verizon and ATT. Not sure about in the US, but there has been push back about 5G in other parts of the world based on what I believe to be superstition and ignorance. Some associate it with cancer (no evidence that non-ionizing radiation would have any effect on cancer that I can see). Some associate 5g with COVID despite zero evidence and no plausible causation mechanism.

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Depends on how many people share cell phones.

 

Since I had my house built in '85 it has been on something called "energywise" load management that gives me now an $8.50/mo credit on my bill. It has been possible to detect and "manage" load for some time.

 

The first winter was very cold (like teens) and my HVAC has a heat pump. They began cycling power. It would come back. Heat pump would go into a "de-ice" cycle. 20 minutes later the heat would come back only to have the power company cycle again. Fortunately the ceiling fans in the bedrooms have built in 800/1500W heaters.

 

Was many complaints. Hasn't happened since but still get the credit.

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2 hours ago, jdome said:

 I was NOT referring to the meters themselves but the plan to install smart meter systems so the utility could ration electric to prevent blackouts. CA still has blackouts and brown outs. Just my observation.

 

I am trying to figure out how they could possibly do that through a meter. I am sure anything is possible and I had retired 5 years ago as a Journeyman Electrician, but I still keep in "in the loop" and never heard of such a thing. I know they monitor grids for irregularities in demand, but that is mostly looking for residential low and high spikes. Indicated a corrupted meter (the old rotary style) or too much load indicating possible illegal activity. I can't comprehend how a utility would think a single out an  individual home to prevent a blackout. 

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I still have the box with a green light. Suspect they could designate a specific area and send an "on" or "off". But that was 30 years ago, suspect they can interrogate and send commands to individual meters now.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, padgett said:

I still have the box with a green light. Suspect they could designate a specific area and send an "on" or "off". But that was 30 years ago, suspect they can interrogate and send commands to individual meters now.

 

Yes, but that is a thirty year old meter which was at least 50 year old technology at that time.  From what I was explained the purpose of the smart meter was to eliminate the job of the meter readers, and to enable the utility to apply peak pricing during peak demand parts of the day.

 

I am asking an honest question; how can a smart meter physically shutdown a customers power? The smart meters as I remember are are just current transformers (similar principle to the inductive pick-up on a timing light}. Just donuts sitting  around the wire, no switch, no physical control of the flow, so how can this be done?  

 

This is giving the utility a better picture of the consumption, they are in the business of making money, and they make that money by providing that service.    

Edited by John348 (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

If I push a certain sequence of buttons on my heat pump programming control box and then wait 20 minutes a guy shows up at my house with a large pepperoni pizza at no charge.  I’m trying to figure out how to change that to a sausage pizza, I’m getting really tired of pepperoni! (Only works is in the wintertime.  In summer it’s a guy with snow cones) 🤷‍♂️.

Edited by TerryB (see edit history)
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Hamburger Mushroom is better.

 

My box with the green light just controls power to the AC and can be controlled from the CO.

Given modern technology I could see smart circuit breakers, particularly ones over 30A.

 

Not in the business so don't know, can think of several possibilities that the power company could require for some installations. Also an EV charger use pattern would be different from other home appliances so easy to apply a different rate with no need to control.

 

Am sure the power companies are thinking about what they may need to do.

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Posted (edited)

When we bought our house, early '90s, the folks we bought it from had made a hobby of making pottery and polishing rocks.  Had an electric kiln for the pottery.  He had installed the special electric meter to allow Time of Use metering.  Peak rates were from noon to 6 PM on weekdays, off peak at other times.  He told me to be sure and keep it as it was a big $$$ savings.  I did, and am sure it save thousands over the years.  When we installed a solar system, combined with net metering, it was great because I'd run the meter backwards during the afternoon when the rates were high - then buy power back when it was cheap.

 

Fast forward to the last few years.  California is on the verge of having too much solar during the former mid-day peak.  The peak demand for non-solar/wind generation has morphed into two peaks - one in the morning before solar kicks in, and a bigger one in the evening when everyone is home cooking dinner and watching TV.  As a consequence, PG&E and no doubt the other CA utilities shifted their off-peak TOU rates to be from midnight to 3 PM.  So I'm selling most of my excess power to the grid at cheap rates and buying back expensive power now.  (Fortunately most of my solar panels are aimed west, instead of south.  So after 3 PM I still sell some back at higher rates.)  I charge the cars after midnight when the rates are cheap again.

 

Where this is all headed is home solar + battery storage.  Charge the battery during the day with solar, then release the energy during the evening to handle household demand when it is expensive - or during a power failure.  Taken even farther, there is talk of homeowners and businesses banding together to form "virtual power plants".  This when the grid needs power at high demand times, you can then sell your excess and monetize it - rather than them having to start up an expensive "peaker plant".

 

Last week Elon announced that Tesla Energy (formerly Solar City) will no longer be installing solar-only systems.  All solar will now be integrated with their Powerwall battery systems.  It both simplifies installation and is a step towards VPPs.

 

FWIW - I use the 240V circuit that was formerly used for the kiln to charge my Model 3.

Edited by wws944 (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, padgett said:

Hamburger Mushroom is better.

 

My box with the green light just controls power to the AC and can be controlled from the CO.

Given modern technology I could see smart circuit breakers, particularly ones over 30A.

 

Not in the business so don't know, can think of several possibilities that the power company could require for some installations. Also an EV charger use pattern would be different from other home appliances so easy to apply a different rate with no need to control.

 

Am sure the power companies are thinking about what they may need to do.

 

Mr. P. I was not just asking you, I asking everyone in general. sorry for the confusion.

 

As far as the smart circuit breakers, that technology has been in use for many years. Many people take for granted the control of the building management systems in industrial settings. Everything was/is controlled in one location within the building. Air conditioning, lighting, elevator banks, and all the other electrically controlled systems. They were beginning to convert the system to an app control several years ago where this control could be done offsite. Sort of real cool, but sort of scary all in the same. I see now that similar control of homes is being offered by residential security systems.  It is simpler then controlling the breaker, I think it would be as simple as a relay controlling that particular circuit 

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22 hours ago, padgett said:

Just saying where there is profit to be made, some will find a way to make it.

 

I agree totally, and I think they found it. Just the elimination of the meter readers in itself increased profits. The shame of it is,  that was an entry level job for many to get their foot in the door and work their way up to a good paying job in the utility  

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1 hour ago, John348 said:

 

I agree totally, and I think they found it. Just the elimination of the meter readers in itself increased profits. The shame of it is,  that was an entry level job for many to get their foot in the door and work their way up to a good paying job in the utility  

My electric meter has been remote read for a few years, the local water utility is in the process of doing the same thing.

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On 5/4/2021 at 11:06 PM, John348 said:

They were beginning to convert the system to an app control several years ago where this control could be done offsite.

IOT is here. Internet Of Things.

 

The city of Richmond starting converting gas meters to remote read in the early 80s. Most of the older meters at that time were inside, in basements, etc. Too much liability for the city. The meter readers had RINGS of keys that fit doors on their route. Surprising to me was how many were those Skeleton keys!

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