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EV- The weather is changing


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California is odd. Spent a year in Marina del Rey and never needed any HVAC. Of course the tax structure more than offset any electric savings.

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11 hours ago, mike6024 said:

I think the only people with high electric bills must have air conditioners, and I can't understand why anyone would want that in this climate. My electric bill is typically under $20. I would need to buy an EV to boost my electricity usage in order to justify putting panels on my roof.

$20 is extremely low. . . I thought our electrical was pretty low with high efficiency lights that are mostly off anyway but between an electric oven, dishwasher, clothes washer, etc. and even sometimes an air compressor in the garage, we are a bit above that. Mind telling us what your utility charges in $/kWh?

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I get a 20% low income discount.

 

For 3/16 through 4/14 I used 124.23 kwh at $0.259 = $32.18, minus the "CARE" discount of 11.25  = $20.97

 

(Looks like that discount is more than 20%, I don't know why, it used to be 20%)

 

the Tier 1 lowest rate of $0.259 per kwh applies for up to 315 kwh, above that the rate increases.

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1 hour ago, padgett said:

Spent a year in Marina del Rey

I lived in Marina Del Rey also, for just one year, in a studio apartment. Loved it, paid only $600 per month back in 1987.
Then bought a small 2 br 1 ba house with carport in Lawndale, the southbay, adjacent to North Redondo Beach.

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17 hours ago, padgett said:

Just saying I can understand why an EV would be popular in California much more than Florida or Texas.

 

I think Texas and Florida are #2 and #3 in U.S. Tesla sales, after California.  And that is despite the anti-Tesla dealer tactics in Texas.

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Guess that is where the suc^H^H^H customers are. Can sorta see in the "thickly settled" areas but but metro areas are 100-200 miles apart. Is about 125 miles to where I go on a beach day and the Jeep still has about a 1/2 tank when I get back.

 

Looking on CL are 93 listings for Teslas and 2013s still have a $30k-$40k asking.  For most people that is too little range for an only car and too much money for a 2nd car. Are also many choices for similar year low mileage luxury cars with 400-500 mile range for about $10-$15k and no worries about Florida Power/Duke Power taking a dump. Of course I doubt that many who have not lived in Florida for a while know just how unreliable power is here, why I have backup power sources.

 

Do see quite a few around Windermere (think of it as the richest town with brick and dirt streets. Shaq has a shack in Isleworth).

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4 minutes ago, padgett said:

Guess that is where the suc^H^H^H customers are. Can sorta see in the "thickly settled" areas but but metro areas are 100-200 miles apart. Is about 125 miles to where I go on a beach day and the Jeep still has about a 1/2 tank when I get back.

 

Looking on CL are 93 listings for Teslas and 2013s still have a $30k-$40k asking.  For most people that is too little range for an only car and too much money for a 2nd car. Are also many choices for similar year low mileage luxury cars with 400-500 mile range for about $10-$15k and no worries about Florida Power/Duke Power taking a dump. Of course I doubt that many who have not lived in Florida for a while know just how unreliable power is here, why I have backup power sources.

 

Do see quite a few around Windermere (think of it as the richest town with brick and dirt streets. Shaq has a shack in Isleworth).

 

If Florida Duke Power takes a "dump" the how are they going to pump gas? Can't you use your back-up source to charge an electric car? seems like you would be the perfect candidate

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35 minutes ago, wws944 said:

 

I think Texas and Florida are #2 and #3 in U.S. Tesla sales, after California.  And that is despite the anti-Tesla dealer tactics in Texas.

 

A little more googling shows that as of a year or two ago, Washington was #2, Florida #3, and Texas #4.  Just that California is about 50% of the market.  So all other states pale by comparison.

10 minutes ago, padgett said:

Guess that is where the suc^H^H^H customers are. Can sorta see in the "thickly settled" areas but but metro areas are 100-200 miles apart. Is about 125 miles to where I go on a beach day and the Jeep still has about a 1/2 tank when I get back.

 

Looking on CL are 93 listings for Teslas and 2013s still have a $30k-$40k asking.  For most people that is too little range for an only car and too much money for a 2nd car...

 

I could easily live with a 2013 Model S (85 please) as my only car.  The once in a while I'd need a truck I could rent for the day.

 

Around town, range is of little concern.  How often does one drive 200+ miles in a day?  When on a road trip, bladder is the constraint - especially as I get older.  Plan a Supercharger stop to coincide with a 'bio break' and little time lost.

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"how are they going to pump gas" I just keep my cars full, a week is NP. OTOH how much current does an EV require ? Can run essentials for my house on 12KW for a long time but takes about a 1/2 gallon/hour for the gennys. Have to look at the total package.

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3 hours ago, padgett said:

... no worries about Florida Power/Duke Power taking a dump. Of course I doubt that many who have not lived in Florida for a while know just how unreliable power is here, why I have backup power sources.

 

 

Late 90s when Carolina Power & Light scarfed up Florida Progress and became Progress Energy, some of us CP&L folks went to visit the FP plants and all of us thought "what the hell were they thinking, buying up this raggedy sh*t?" 

 

PE spent a pile of money fixing up the Florida infrastructure and with one notable exception got it close to reliable as the old CP&L system in NC/SC was. Then Duke came along and nothing was ever the same again. Duke has this "run to failure" mindset, whereas CP&L/PE liked to fix things before they failed in a heap of smoking wreckage. Padgett, I think you're seeing the consequences of "run to failure".

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4 hours ago, wws944 said:

 

I think Texas and Florida are #2 and #3 in U.S. Tesla sales, after California.  And that is despite the anti-Tesla dealer tactics in Texas.

 

I see a lot of them on Long Island, NY, almost at every light I notice one. 

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1 minute ago, John348 said:

 

I see a lot of them on Long Island, NY, almost at every light I notice one. 

 

Depending on which stats I was looking at, NY was #4 or #5.  (Alaska last place.)

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Back in the 50's most Palm Beach mansions had a 10 or 20KW diesel genny in the back. Everyone had a "hurricane radio", a Zenith Transoceanic. Ed what's it like now ?

 

Point is that unreliable power in Florida is nothing new, I grew up with it.

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My limited experieice with Electric cars.  

I was in Jupiter Florida, late 1980's with Ted Holden training for one of the Great Races when Ted brought up the ideaof joining the Electric Car race down Florida's east coast.   He had a 1917 Milburn Electric Coupe.  We would occasionally go out to dinner with it.  Driver and rwo passengers, one of which sat in front facing backwards.  Two tillers to drive and steer with.   Our problrm was the Milburn didn't have either the speed or

or range to complete the race without a overnight

stop for charging. 

30 years later a friend drove up from Florida with his Chevrolet Volt to visit us in North Carolina.  I drove it too and found that it had a small gasoline generator built in for long range trips.   He said he got about 9 miles a gallon after the batteries died.

Electric cars may be smooth an quiet and so fast that many drag strips have banned them,  NASCAR is not worried about them yet.  Unlike the Milburn, the Volt had the speed but no range.   Science will solve that problem too and it will be popular after a few trials and errors.  Like driving with tillers, the bumps will sort

out the bad ideas.

 

Edited by Paul Dobbin
reposition the text (see edit history)
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My wife and I are shopping for an electric car right now. She had foot surgery a few months ago and has decided that the clutch in her hot rod Focus ST makes her leg hurt too much so an electric car might fit the bill. After all, our commute is only 3 miles each way. An electric car would be IDEAL for her.

 

Funny, but I don't feel any stupider because of this.

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1 hour ago, Paul Dobbin said:

 He said he got about 9 miles a gallon after the batteries died.

This has to be a misprint. I know EPA figures (37) and real life do not always agree, but 28 MPG difference?🤔 That little 4 cylinder engine would have to be pouring fuel on the road to be that poor.😲

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That's interesting. the Volt is not and EV; rather a hybrid like a Prius. But the Volt is a "Series Hybrid" while the Prius is a "Parallel Hybrid."

 

Prius can drive the wheels with both electric and gas simultaneously, thus called parallel. The Volt can only drive the wheels with electric, but the gas engine can supply the electric energy to the electric motor, thus is called series, the two power sources are in series.

 

Certainly didn't realize it performed so poorly, 9 mpg.

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Volt is a plugin hybrid.  It operates as a pure EV until the traction pack is depleted.  Then the range extending engine works to power the car.  Gen 1 (2011-2015) Voltec architecture is fairly different than Gen 2 (2016-2019).  Both have two motor/generators plus the ICE.  Gen 1 has one planetary gear set plus some clutches to combine power in various ways.  Gen 2 has two planetaries and a different configuration of clutches.

 

EV range on Gen 1 is mid-30s miles on average - depends a bit on year, as there were a couple battery upgrades.  Gen 2 about 54 EV miles on average.  By plugging in nightly, you can literally go for weeks without using the ICE.  (After six weeks of no ICE use, the car will use the ICE for a few minutes in "engine maintenance mode" just to keep it limber.)

 

When the ICE does run, like if you are driving a lot one day, haven't charged lately, or on a road trip, MPG in Gen 1 is mid-30s on average, and low 40s in Gen 2. By plugging in nightly, you may never use the ICE at all - except when EMM is required.

 

It is a great car.  Similar interior and features as a Cruze, so decent but not luxury.  And quite a deal now in the used car market.

 

I should add that the Volt also keeps track of the age of the gas in the tank.  If it gets over a year old, it will run the ICE in "fuel maintenance mode" until the fuel is burned down enough, and you add enough fresh, to bring the age down below a year.  Many Volt drivers just keep a couple gallons in the tank, and only fill it when going on road trips.  Covers the gas needed for the every six week EMM, and less fuel to burn off at the annual FMM.  Due to COVID, our Volt hasn't been driven much.  My wife filled the tank just before the shutdown, and last month it started doing FMM whenever we drove it.  Ran it almost to empty - no worries about being stranded as had a full EV charge to take over.  And added three or four gallons to make it happy.

Edited by wws944 (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, mike6024 said:

That's interesting. the Volt is not and EV; rather a hybrid like a Prius. But the Volt is a "Series Hybrid" while the Prius is a "Parallel Hybrid."

 

Prius can drive the wheels with both electric and gas simultaneously, thus called parallel. The Volt can only drive the wheels with electric, but the gas engine can supply the electric energy to the electric motor, thus is called series, the two power sources are in series.

 

Certainly didn't realize it performed so poorly, 9 mpg.

 

Not really true.  Due to the way the clutches and planetary gear set(s) are set up the ICE and the two MGs can be configured in a variety of ways on the fly.  Gen 1 has two EV-only modes and two extended range modes - one of which is a series configuration.  Gen 2 has two EV and three extended range modes - none of which are series.  One of the extended range modes is similar, but not identical, to the Prius.

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7 hours ago, mike6024 said:

wws944 OK I'll put you on ignore for both our benefit, and you can do the same

 

 

 

(Shrug.). I'm just trying to share some info on an interesting and somewhat misunderstood car.  For someone looking for a relatively inexpensive "gateway drug" into EVs, it is hard to go wrong with a used Volt.  The drivetrain is really well engineered.  Same with the Bolt EV for that matter.

 

in the dozen years I've been on the AACA forum, I've never done an 'ignore' on any fellow member, and don't intend to start now.  (Facebook is another story...)

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On 4/27/2021 at 10:49 AM, mike6024 said:

I lived in Marina Del Rey also, for just one year, in a studio apartment. Loved it, paid only $600 per month back in 1987.
Then bought a small 2 br 1 ba house with carport in Lawndale, the southbay, adjacent to North Redondo Beach.

Compared to here, that was expensive.

 

In 1987, I was paying $425 for a 891 sq.ft. 2br 1ba house with a double garage, it was thoroughly gutted and renovated in 1983, and was basically a brand new house when I moved in.  The next year in 1988, I asked the landlord if he expressed any interest in selling, and he said yes, had the property appraised, and subsequently purchased it for $58K.  I sold it 8 years later, and moved to where I am now. 

 

I only wish I kept the place, even if it meant going in to some serious debt, plus some uncertainties over a road extension involving an overpass within 200' of the property which never happened in the end.  Ten years ago, a similar home 2 doors down sold for $380K, and prices have escalated since then.

 

Craig

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a) Maybe should rename "EV the whether is changing"

b) Spent a lot of time in California but prefer to live in a warm salt-free resort in a no-income-tax state.

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In 1989 I made a few trips from New York the Pomona, Ca. to plan transition of a Xerox plant from a failing cogeneration operation back to ConEd, the local utility. Somewhere in my collection of stuff I have a corporate thank you letter for making the plant work instead. I saved the letter because I knew my mother would be impressed.

 

That job was my first recognition of management's deep divide between concept and detail. Over the decades that insight has helped reveal so many projects that have failed due to a lack of attention to detail. Many are designed to fail simply due to ignorance of the difference between capital and operations money.

 

These capital energy projects look good, but like any other "investment" the investment needs to be maintained. Remember the TV ads a few years back soliciting contributions for water wells in poor countries? The ads are gone and the wells quit working. The charitable money was legally only for capital, none for operations. Most state, federal, and charitable money goes that way. And nothing is out there changing it. Many so called energy upgrades are just tear outs of deferred maintenance equipment.

 

I just looked up on the shelf above me. There is a book that was presented to me years ago Blessed Are The Cynical by Ellingsen. May there keep the certified in check.

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On 4/28/2021 at 9:51 PM, Frank DuVal said:

This has to be a misprint. I know EPA figures (37) and real life do not always agree, but 28 MPG difference?🤔 That little 4 cylinder engine would have to be pouring fuel on the road to be that poor.😲

  I only reported what the man told me.  He said 9 MPG running on the gas pwered geneerator.  I was not impressed.

  Also ran into some Florida friends while in Maggie Valley.  They were drivig as Prius and we talked al little about MPG.

  The related that flat land in Florida got good MPG, but in the Smokies, 9 MPG.   I was not impressed again.

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1 hour ago, Pfeil said:

After you get done reacting to the sensational headline read the entire story.  GM has invested in the US to make EVs and one of the products made in Mexico will be a Honda branded EV SUV while an electric Acura will be made in Spring Hill Tennessee.  GM making Hondas should be the bigger headline.

Edited by TerryB (see edit history)
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So the take away I am getting is ,

A] EV's may be a option that will be a practical situation in some locations / user circumstances.

B} EV's may be somewhat less life cycle environmentally harmful than some I.C. vehicles.

 

Is all of this going to "save the planet " ?

 

Would the Billions that are going to be spent to re - invent road transportation be better spent on other; hopefully more effective ways of reducing mankind's " carbon footprint " ?

 

Is the push toward EV's partially / mostly-

a] a attempt by Gov. to be seen to be " doing something " as is being demanded by a substantial number of environmentally aware  members of the public ? An exercise in optics, rather than a well thought plan to maximize results.

b} a move by industry to " cash in " to a marketing opportunity that the public's carbon footprint awareness presents ? Regardless if the end result is a decreased carbon footprint or not.

 

Are we being given the " hard sell " on EV's based on wishful thinking and half truth's , if not outright deception ?

 

Cynical as always up here in the rain forest, Greg

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:

  I only reported what the man told me.  He said 9 MPG running on the gas pwered geneerator.  I was not impressed.

  Also ran into some Florida friends while in Maggie Valley.  They were drivig as Prius and we talked al little about MPG.

  The related that flat land in Florida got good MPG, but in the Smokies, 9 MPG.   I was not impressed again.

 

I have no first hand knowledge of the Volt but I have owned three different generations of the Prius and can tell you that 9 MPG is impossibly low if the car is anything close to being maintained.

 

I do volunteer work on the top of a mountain that is over 8,000 ft high. On any of the Prius cars I've owned if I fill the tank at the bottom of the grade (about 1,500 ft elevation) I get between 30 and 35 MPG getting to the top. The trip back down is basically free (hybrid logic keeps the engine off nearly all the time) so the round trip is between 40 MPG (2001 vintage “first generation” Prius) and 50 MPG (2017 vintage “fourth generation” Prius). The 2004 we had (“second generation”) was in between those two numbers.

 

Coming back from Joshua Tree this week (start elevation about 2,000, rising to about 4,000, down to sea level, up to about 2,000 feet and then back to sea level over about 120 miles) we got an indicated 62 MPG. And the low desert section was at 100°F so we had the AC on in addition to the weight of our camping gear, etc.

 

Of course that is just my experience with three cars. But if you want more data to work with visit any Internet Prius forum and you will see tales of woe if someone isn’t getting at least 40 or 45 MPG with lots of suggestions on what to look at to correct the problem they are having.

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IMO the die has been cast. We live in an interconnected world socially, economically, technologically, and in a certain sense culturally. For more than a hundred years, but more specifically for seventy five years, since WWll, we have led the modern world as it has developed. We are no longer leading or are we immune to the changing world order.

 

Thankfully Tesla has been able to buck our IC dominated world with technology and products that were able to compete. In our world it really took that type of leap forward to move the bar. Cheap gas prices could have left us behind for decades. 

 

"A little more googling shows that as of a year or two ago, Washington was #2, Florida #3, and Texas #4.  Just that California is about 50% of the market.  So all other states pale by comparison." I wasn't surprised that our state was #2, in spite of our population (7+ million) EV is everywhere here and with our mild climate on the west side of the mountains, our cars don't deteriorate as fast as some other places. The climate may not appeal to everyone, but our cars seem to like it.

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We are at the point of “go big or go home” for non fossil fuel vs fossil fuel energy development and expected benefits from its use.  All the prototype programs involving solar panels, wind turbines, battery storage electric automobiles and the like have been beta tested and now it’s time to go into bigger production with both government and private sector money. It took government investment money to get roads for automobiles and electricity to our homes.  Where would we be today without those investments?
 

 As these projects grow and develop the speculation on what works and what doesn’t gets apparent very quickly. Changes will be made and programs adjusted as necessary.  Going into outer space was full of what if’s and unknowns with the risks balanced by science and technological developments along the way.  It’s that spirt of seeking more, learning more, and making choices based on real data that drives every advancement in virtually everything we own or use.  As I get older sometimes I don’t see the need for things like an app on my phone that tells me my hamburgers on the grill are ready but that same type of information transfer from a wearable device might tell me my blood sugar is spiking or my heart is having issues. Similar data just different applications.

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Natural resources, there use, and distribution, last night my wife and I watched The Treasure of Sierra Madre on the movie channel. At the closing credits I looked at her and asked "Was that a metaphorical story of the United States?".

 

I think it bothered her that she understood so quickly.

 

I subscribe to this: https://www.eia.gov/

A while back they featured an article proclaiming that Puerto Rico had returned to nearly 100% its pre-hurricane power consumption. They thought that was wonderful. To me, hundreds of engineers rebuilding a devastated power grid might have found significant energy savings in the process of recovery.

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6 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:

  I only reported what the man told me.  He said 9 MPG running on the gas pwered geneerator.  I was not impressed.

  Also ran into some Florida friends while in Maggie Valley.  They were drivig as Prius and we talked al little about MPG.

  The related that flat land in Florida got good MPG, but in the Smokies, 9 MPG.   I was not impressed again.

 

Well, as the late, great, Henry Joy would say - "ask the man who owns one".  The only way you'd get 9 mpg in a Volt is if there was a hole drilled in the gas tank.

 

Well...  Perhaps there is another way.  When the outside temps are very low, the car will run the ICE for cabin heat.  It isn't actually using the ICE for propulsion until, once again, the EV range is depleted.  This is the "ERDTT" (Engine Running Due To Temperature) mode.  So I guess under this scenario, the display might report 9 mpg.  Depending on the year of the Volt, one has a couple of menu selections for the ERDTT threshold.  (E.g., on my 2016 it is 35F and 15F.)

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Considering that even the mechanics of cause and effect of global warming are largely theory even at this point. 

 

Yes ; the global average temp is rising, no dispute whatsoever. 

 

But the next step in the logic; why is the global average temp rising ?, is far from defined fact. Natural cyclic temperature change ? side effects of burning fossil fuels ?, A combination of these two , or other factors ? Not even close to a consensus amongst scientist's . 

 

A very large , extremely dynamic system . Involving solar radiation and all the variables that involves, ocean currents, air currents . And energy radiation  from the earth to space. To conclusively state " this is the problem " - burning fossil fuels. And then equally positively state " this is the solution " stop burning fossil fuels, seems to me to be a act of faith more than a rational act of science and logic.

 

Greg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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I suspect when/if Yosemite (or something similar) blows we will find out the effect of nature. I was tempted to buy some land in Antelope valley and wait for it to become seashore.

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17 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Considering that even the mechanics of cause and effect of global warming are largely theory even at this point. 

 

Yes ; the global average temp is rising, no dispute whatsoever. 

 

But the next step in the logic; why is the global average temp rising ?, is far from defined fact. Natural cyclic temperature change ? side effects of burning fossil fuels ?, A combination of these two , or other factors ? Not even close to a consensus amongst scientist's . 

 

A very large , extremely dynamic system . Involving solar radiation and all the variables that involves, ocean currents, air currents . And energy radiation  from the earth to space. To conclusively state " this is the problem " - burning fossil fuels. And then equally positively state " this is the solution " stop burning fossil fuels, seems to me to be a act of faith more than a rational act of science and logic.

 

Greg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Greg, at what point do you decide to try something or do nothing?  I see your argument but I don’t see your solution or alternative action.  In every scientific endeavor there is always the goal to be reached and the method to do that developed. The largest, or you may argue the loudest group who are trying to decrease climate change believe it’s due to carbon based emissions. They have put their hypothesis to the test, gathered data and now have made the proposal to make the next big step in reducing carbon emissions using a variety of methods.  This is how it works.  To us it may seem lacking concrete proof but without big efforts to reduce the emissions and study the resulting effects nothing is learned.  At some point there will be discovery and obviously someone’s beliefs will be deemed correct.
 

 I spent most of my working life involved in discovery and development and yes not every theoretical assumption is correct but without large trials that would never be known.  As you might have guessed I’m not a member of the do nothing mindset, the EV development aspect of doing something new is fascinating to me from the engineering standpoint of technology advancement and the end result of it possibly being beneficial to the earth just icing on the cake.  

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