Can I drive it every day?

[Terry Bond]

Well, we've found at least 50 or 60 ways to say about the same thing.  Now I'm waiting for Matt to chime in and let us know what he is gonna do.

Terry

[yachtflame]

On 1/14/2021 at 2:47 PM, keithb7 said:

Do you have a sales document with all the fine print that the purchaser signs when he/she buys a new car? The customer signs it, you are protected.  If the buyer refuses to read it, that's his fault.

Back in the early ‘80s, I ran a yacht for a NY attorney, Roy Cohn. The one thing he taught me was that “You can’t sign away your rights. This is America. You have the right to sue anyone for anything!
 A contract or waiver is a nice thing to have signed... it turns away most people but if he takes it to an attorney, it’s just a piece of paper with ink on it.”

 Matt, when all is said and done, what is the final cost of this transaction, money or your sanity?

[edinmass]

On 1/14/2021 at 11:33 AM, Paul Dobbin said:

     State minimum limits don't protect you or anybody else on the

     road around you for liability.   $10,000 personal injury limits are

     a joke.   You are driving a 100+ year old car that you repaired

     yourself.   You are a target for every lawyer in the state of Florida

     to take a shot at.

     When your car hurts somebody else, the problem becomes yours

     because you knowingly operated this old vehicle assuming

     liability for for yourself and that dangerous old car.   

     Raise you limits!  Don't put yourself in the same class as Matt's

     customer.   Minimum limits are for the homeless and people with

     no assets or earning capabilities.

Read my answer again......I was using it as an example. I don’t run minimums, but they are available for every car in every state. Since my 20’s I carried a lot of extra insurance.......when I saw a trailer back into a Model J at a CCCA event. I’m around expensive cars every day, so I have plenty of coverage.

 

How Matt chooses to resolve this issue is truly up to him. That said, he has no moral obligations in my opinion to deal with this. People are adults and make decisions. They expect to be treated like a five year old if something goes wrong. Matt sold a car.......and last time I checked, he doesn’t sell insurance. The fact that some people are dumb as shxx doesn’t mean you owe them anything. I have sold thousands of vehicles.......we had a dealership for fifteen years. Taking back a car with a mechanical issue is good business to keep the customers happy.......I did it several times. It was a good faith transaction that went bad, so we just refunded every dollar, fixed the car, and sold it again. No big deal. Taking a car back because the customer is an ass hoxx .........never. I fix cars, I can’t fix STUPID. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JamesR]

On 1/12/2021 at 1:59 PM, Matt Harwood said:

This is only the latest edition of how we have to constantly protect grown adults from their own stupidity and it's friggin' exhausting.

 

I had a music store for many years, and I don't miss it for the reason you mention. Most people work at places where there's some kind of screening process that most of the other people they encounter have to go through - anything from a human resources dept. to some level of educational attainment. Those of us who work/worked retail are in a very different situation, however, even with big ticket merchandise. Charlie Manson can come strolling through the front door of your business at anytime of the day.  

 

Your customer has some sort of emotional problem that isn't too different from all the people who want a guitar so they can be the star that the little voices inside their heads tell them they are. Non-acceptance of reality, or whatever the psychological name for that is. Unfortunately, crazy people are a certain percentage of the population and there's absolutely no way to avoid dealing with them. To me, the most frustrating thing about crazy people is that they don't wear little signs that say, "I'm crazy," so people I eventually allowed myself to put in the category of non-crazy sometimes do a fake-out and do or say something crazy. As hard as it is, don't let them drive you crazy. Developing interests outside of your line of work can help. Have you ever thought about playing guitar?

[Flivverking]

Be prepaired MH ,you maybe be setting a precedent that everthing in your auto dealings is subject returnable for any reason,and top it off with worry about customer feed back and reviews according to other's view on here.

 

Buyers remorse no more. Good for them..but not so much for you.

 

At this point your waisting too much of your time on the mess.

 

Either keep up the deal and send the guy to Ebay or a shrink. or 

call the dope to bring the car back ASAP and refund his money (less a complete detailing fee for his grubby covid hands and road dust) and send him on his way and ban him from the lot(but don't state it)

 

Don't give a thought about what others may think on why a car is back on the lot..soory but that is ridiculous and plain paroniod thinking.

If some cluck asks,(and no one will), tell'um "not everybody's checks are good or something.

 

You personally and emotionally and business wise  need to move on and put it behind you.

 

I have a suspision though MH , you want to keep the money😝

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[60FlatTop]

Every time I land on this topic I get a whole string of thoughts swirling around just goading all the little voices. I tend to let things roll off. I my instance I don't take a lot of stuff to seriously. One gets too serious and that starts breeding expectations, sometimes expectations don't get met. That's not good and it can make one resentful. But it is good to play with ideas, ponder the ins and outs.

 

I get a very strong message from all these comments. The underlying question I see is "How do you deal with an extreme exception?" Think about that. How wonderful that this is a exception and extreme enough to communicate about. If it was the rule and just another day of work, not even worth sharing..... Now, there's a problem.

 

Me, crazy? Maybe, but I can discuss the Higgs Boson with intimate detail.

Bernie

[Doozer]

My unsolicited advice is......

leaving the words “ I “ and “you” out of it.

you say:  A persons inability to secure an insurance policy to their satisfaction, isn’t a legitimate reason for a car dealer to take back a car.  Repeat the same line as frequently as needed until it sinks in.

[padgett]

Please let's not get into quantum physics...

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, padgett said:

Please let's not get into quantum physics...

 

Why not.......it’s almost as interesting as pre war cars............

[Doozer]

On 1/13/2021 at 11:30 AM, padgett said:

and remember Lucas heaters are the reason the English drink beer at room temperature: 38F.

One reason english cars were possible for me was I lived in south Florida. Did drive my MGA from Florida to North Carolina several times. Of course that was before Interstates.

 

[padgett]

See integer factorization aka fun with quantum computers. Am now retired. Would rather discuss why the MG-TD was the worst example of the TCs (came with a crank for a reason).

Edited January 16, 2021 by padgett (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Since it is easy for me to spend Matt's money,  I'll relay the practice of Tom Crook,  who I consider one of the greatest classic car salesmen of the last 40 years.   It is hard to get anyone to say anything bad about Tom.  He would buy any car he sold back within a year no questions asked for what the buyer paid for it (minus the transportation and misc costs of transaction).   He did swallow a few over the years but over the long haul did REALLY well. 

[edinmass]

To be fair, Tom sold high end stuff..........to people who weren’t so stupid that they forgot to put the toilet lid up before they relieved themselves...............

[Guest]

 I was once advised to use this bill of sale,

 

  BILL OF SALE  
5/14/2002

 One 1968 Ford, VIN...
Sold to,___________________________
    
I acknowledge that the car is sold as-is, where-is, without any warranty or guarantee of fitness, and that I have inspected the car and I am satisfied, using my own judgment, that the car is satisfactory for the use that I am going to put it to.  

Signed,  ____________________________
 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Roger Walling (see edit history)

[CHuDWah]

Wow, whole lotta cynicism in this thread!  Posters are posting based on years of experience that the buyer apparently doesn't have.  So I think calling him stupid, idiotic, moronic, whatever is unfair.  He sounds like a newbie who thinks an old car daily driver would be cool, but doesn't understand the limitations outlined in the OP.  I suspect his experience has been only with modern cars capable of coping with those limitations.  So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and just call him naive.  Granted, he didn't do due diligence, but one has to know at least enough to know what questions to ask.  OTOH, a seller can't be expected to read a buyer's mind to know what unasked questions to answer.

 

I'm no lawyer so I won't comment on legal responsibility, if any.  I have absolutely no doubt Matt was honest in the transaction so IMO he has no moral/ethical responsibility.  But I won't offer advice as to what he should or shouldn't do about the situation.  That is his decision.  I understand the need to vent frustration and if that's all this thread is, fine.  But I do find this worrisome:

 

On 1/12/2021 at 2:59 PM, Matt Harwood said:

....This latest example of adults without brains is exactly why my patience is shot and my energy is gone and my interest in cars is plummeting...

 

If that's really the feeling, maybe it's time to get out of the business.

[wayne sheldon]

4 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Me, crazy? Maybe, but I can discuss the Higgs Boson with intimate detail.

Bernie

 

Suddenly, I would like to spend a day or two with you just discussing other than collector cars interesting things! I haven't really tried to keep up with the more recent findings of particle physics or the formation of the universe. In my thirty years earning my keep in cutting edge technologies, I became one of the few go-to guys in certain areas of fault-finding because I developed an expertise in electro-magnetic field effect phenomenon.

 

 

On subject. I noticed a few people mentioning having a good conversation with the potential buyer. I can see how that would go. Whatever you say? Some of what they say; "Oh yeah, I know all about these things". "Been working on them all my life." "Had one in college." "It was just like my dad's." "I sold it about five years ago and really want another one." "Insurance? Yeah, know all about that." "Financing? All set up, don't need any help."

Gee? Where have I heard those things before?

[Matt Harwood]

OK, to reel things in a bit.

 

One, yes, of course we have a purchase agreement that says "as-is, where-is" and that there are no guarantees or warranties. Case law concerning used cars is pretty well established. Nevertheless, there's a pretty wide gray area in which we actually do business. I'm not the sort that just points to the contract and tells people, "Too bad." This is a hobby, it's supposed to be fun, not stressful, and I look at it as my job to facilitate that.

 

Two, there's absolutely a limit to my goodwill and you can use it up before you even finish the purchase or you can be a great guy and I'll really try to help you out. This MG buyer falls somewhere in the middle, as he played a bunch of games and bought the car twice--the first time he backed out after only giving us a deposit, then came back after I marked it down and completed the transaction. So he used up a lot of goodwill there. But at this point, if he asks me to take the car back I'm going to. Why? Well that brings us to...

 

Three, buying it back is simply easier than dealing with the alternative, which will be complaints, accusations that I didn't tell him the truth about the car, and other unpleasantness. I'd rather pay money to avoid unpleasantness than have the relatively modest profits that such a car generates. 

 

This job is rife with pitfalls--I don't sell anything anybody NEEDS. As a result, there are always recriminations, second-guessing, and worries, and if the road after purchase is even a little rocky, it often becomes my fault, or at least my problem to solve. Grownups get upset over broken toys just like little kids, which shouldn't be a surprise to any of you. There's the guy who bought a Corvette that I specifically advertised as non-numbers-matching, then consulted an expert who told him it was non-numbers-matching, and who is now trying to sue me because--well, I don't really know other than he somehow thought he was buying a numbers-matching car when it was clearly advertised as NOM. There's the guy who bought a Jeep, decided to fix an oil leak, dropped the pan, pulled a bearing cap just to have a look and found that the bearings were showing wear and is now demanding a new engine. There's the guy who bought a really nice Mopar, found a small bubble in the paint, picked at it until the entire quarter panel needed to be repainted and sent me a $2500 bill. The guy who bought a Model A with an assigned VIN because the engine was swapped, who later demanded a refund because his state wouldn't allow him to run YoM plates like he wanted to. And the guy with a Cobra kit car where it came off the trailer with a dead battery because the truck driver didn't turn the key off properly, and he decided he didn't want the car anymore because a dead battery was just too much to bear. And that's just in the past few weeks. 

 

In most of these cases, I just throw money at them until they go away--it's less stressful than a fight, even if I would ultimately prevail. It makes Melanie pretty angry and she often wants to fight, but it's just not worth it most of the time. It isn't my responsibility to save any of these guys from themselves, but I do just to make the headaches go away quickly. I don't want that crap hanging over me at night when I can't sleep and am alone with my own thoughts. I don't want to have to find the inspiration to go to work when I have to spend 45 minutes thinking about this crap while I walk to work in the morning. It's probably why I'll never get rich, but we do OK and I'm not complaining. It's just easier, if not smarter or legally necessary, to accommodate these guys somehow rather than to draw a line in the sand and dare them to step over it.

 

We good?

 

 

[60FlatTop]

13 hours ago, CHuDWah said:

a seller can't be expected to read a buyer's mind to know what unasked questions to answer.

 

[SC38dls]

Matt. You are a better man than I am, and I applaud you for it. The best I would have done for this guy was try to sell it for him on commission. It’s a shame you have customers like this but I guess it’s just part of being in business. 
I had a customer that wanted me to send out renewal notices to about 20,000 subscribers but use invoice forms instead of renewal forms. The USPS considers invoices as an obligation to pay and renewals an offer of product. It’s illegal to sent a non requested “invoice” punishable by a large fine and imprisonment for each case. I told him I couldn’t do it. He said do it or loose the account. I personally took his file tape to his office and had him sign off he received it. I lost a $15 grand a month account plus his open invoices then he sued. It was still worth it to get rid of a turkey of a client and a dishonest one at that. I did win the law suit! 
Happy you feel good about you decision. If I know of anyone looking for an antique car I will be sure to tell them to check your web site as they will be dealing with a very good person. 
dave s 

[pkhammer]

  I totally get where Matt is coming from. I have worked in some form of customer service most of my life. Thankfully most people are reasonable to deal with but there will always be those that either don't know what they want, are demanding, constantly change their minds, or are just plain picky and seemingly never satisfied. 99% of the time it saves a lot of stress, grief and drama to simply be accommodating and help satisfy the customer/client. Yes, human nature wants us to scream "you idiot!", but what we perceive as stupidity may simply be inexperience or ignorance on their part. I sell a lot of parts on line. Thankfully in the last 10 years I can count on one hand those that have been dissatisfied with what they have purchased and in all cases I gladly accepted a return and refunded the buyers money.

  A while back I got a wild hair and had some money to spend. I decided I wanted a nickel era open car to enjoy. I searched, got advice on this forum, and even went and looked at a few cars. I'm ultimately glad that I did not go out and purchase such a car on a whim, I no doubt would not have been happy. My inability to service such a car myself or obtain parts as well as the slow speed would have made for a less than satisfying experience. I'm glad I realized this BEFORE I made a purchase. 

[Terry Bond]

Matt, thanks for the update. IMHO you did the right thing for the customer AND yourself.

Terry

[JamesR]

What ChudWah said is correct, there is a fair bit of cynicism on this thread. There are some modern mythologies that contribute to that cynicism, however. One of them is, "the customer is always right."

 

The spirit of that idea has been corrupted by some people who take it literally. Customers are not always right, they're very often wrong because of a lack of knowledge or expertise or some personal problem. I believe the phrase was originally intended intended to convey this idea: The customer is the one who pays the bills and therefore always deserves a great deal of respect. But respect - like most types of good will - can't be unilateral. It must be reciprocated, to one degree or another, between buyer and seller.

 

I understand that people who are spending a lot of money on merchandise want to do so with confidence. They want the seller to stand behind the expensive items they sell. And give a full refund when need be, as when there's a definable problem with the item. That's moral and proper.

 

But there is also an idea that's called the "deal." What does it mean when two people strike a deal? Is the seller the only one who has to live up to a transaction? Imagine this scenario: a dealer sells a car or whatever to a person...then shows up two weeks later at the buyer's doorstep and says, "I changed my mind. Here's your money back...now give me back my item!"

 

Would you as a buyer feel like you were being treated unfairly if that happened to you? Understand that sellers feel a little bit of that when the item they've sold the customer has no problem, but the buyer still wants to undo the deal.

 

[8E45E]

Has this car sold since?

 

Craig

[ericmac]

I too am curious how this turned out.

[Matt Harwood]

Yes, I bought the car back and sold it a few weeks later for about $1500 less to a local guy. The car was a MESS when it came back from New England--he really did try to drive it in the winter weather. Took us a week to get it back into shape. There were salt stains EVERYWHERE and everything inside the car was wet.

 

You might think me a fool, but after getting six calls in four days from the guy who bought it yelling about how I had fraudulently misled him about "driving the car every day" and how unfit it was for winter driving and how his son the lawyer was going to eat me for breakfast, I just gave him his money back less the cost of detailing just to be rid of him. I might have come out even on the deal, which is fine.

 

The unfortunate thing is that idiots like this never know about--or participate in--the havoc that they create. They just glide along from disaster to disaster never quite getting touched by them. For me, it was worth taking a zero just to avoid future headaches by scratching him off my list of people I have to deal with. It wasn't that I was afraid of getting sued, it just takes too much energy and time to placate guys like this that I'd rather take the shortest way possible to get rid of them. That's probably why I'll never get rich doing this job.

[Walt G]

It shows you how really self centered some people are, they are looking out for number 1 (them) and don't consider anyone else is alive nor do they care if they are. Fortunately they are in the minority, but it just seems sometimes that we all have to meet those people and then are forced to deal with their personalities ( or is is poisonalities?) This can occur in any form, from selling a car, to people who are "in charge" of car clubs, companies, or get elected to some position of "importance" and thus now have a title ( so they have to be superior) . I have been through this with car clubs, and despite the huge  number of extremely nice people , all it takes is one determined know it all to turn off people. I used to get upset, now as I age, I just turn away and am done with it, never to return. If there is no one there to fill the gap or take up the slack of what I used to do , then the "oh well" factor comes into play. Life is short , enjoy the friendships and things you know will make you happy and  dismiss the rest.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Walt G
clarification (see edit history)

[AHa]

Sometimes in the past, I have tried to illustrate absurdity with absurdity but I have learned, honesty really is the best policy. When I answer an absurd to me question with an absurd answer, 9 out of 10 times the answer is received as truth and I end up having to eat my words and sometimes much more. When the guy asked, "Can I drive this every day," you should have yes, but I wouldn't want to. Or, a simple no. For those of us who have common sense, the answer is obvious and therefore the question is absurd and beyond reason, but to those who are not so gifted, the question is real. In your business, you can't afford to be flippant or just assume every one has some modicum of common sense. Try having a little more grace and mercy for those less fortunate. If the guy actually tried to drive the car everyday through the winter, he obviously was working with one brick less than a full load, which was understandably difficult for him. It sounds like he genuinely did not know better. As absurd as it may seem, there are more of them than there are of us. I hope you don't have to learn this lesson again. Sadly, it took several tries for me.

[8E45E]

Thanks for the update.  I'm very sorry it turned out the way it did.  

 

It appears he was an accident waiting to happen.  I hope the salt didn't ruin the car in any way.

 

Craig

[JamesR]

While we're on the subject, does anyone know where I can get a pair of snow tires for my ancient Roman chariot? I don't want to go with all season radials because they aren't authentic enough. 😄

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, AHa said:

Sometimes in the past, I have tried to illustrate absurdity with absurdity but I have learned, honesty really is the best policy. When I answer an absurd to me question with an absurd answer, 9 out of 10 times the answer is received as truth and I end up having to eat my words and sometimes much more. When the guy asked, "Can I drive this every day," you should have yes, but I wouldn't want to. Or, a simple no. For those of us who have common sense, the answer is obvious and therefore the question is absurd and beyond reason, but to those who are not so gifted, the question is real. In your business, you can't afford to be flippant or just assume every one has some modicum of common sense. Try having a little more grace and mercy for those less fortunate. If the guy actually tried to drive the car everyday through the winter, he obviously was working with one brick less than a full load, which was understandably difficult for him. It sounds like he genuinely did not know better. As absurd as it may seem, there are more of them than there are of us. I hope you don't have to learn this lesson again. Sadly, it took several tries for me.

 

Well, I don't rightly know that there's a lesson for me to learn other than I have to be even more careful with my words, perhaps to the point of saying nothing beyond, "You need to come see it yourself and make up your own mind. My opinion is meaningless."

 

Just this morning I had a conversation with a young woman who was interested in a 1956 Chevrolet wagon I have for sale. She wanted to use it as a daily driver. Technically, yes, you could drive it every day. Which I told her. I also told her it won't be like a modern car, it doesn't have power steering, it has a 4-speed but no overdrive, it doesn't have A/C (she lives in Reno, NV), and while there's a fresh crate motor under the hood, it's still not going to feel much like a "modern" car. It's going to get terrible gas mileage and it will sound like it's working very hard on the highway. She got offended and told me that she comes from a long line of car people and understands old cars. So by trying to help her make an educated decision (keeping MG guy in mind, because I had just seen this thread reappear), I offended a potential buyer in a different way. What should I learn from that?

 

I have a great deal of useful car knowledge that's completely worthless to buyers because the impression is that I have an agenda and can't be trusted, so they disregard whatever I tell them anyway. I told MG guy the car would be a poor daily driver, but he figured that since it had side curtains, it was good to go. Admittedly, I probably made the mistake of telling him that people drove them daily when they were new so no reason why it couldn't be done today, which is something I used to say frequently (not anymore). But how could I have known he actually intended to drive it through a New England winter? That's a special kind of stupid that's so stupid you think it can't possibly exist in the real world. Yet there it is. What's worse, now I have it all over me and have to figure out how to get it off.

 

That disconnect (and the resultant hedging on making statements of any kind regarding a car I'm selling) is probably what makes people believe car dealers are unscrupulous. All car dealers surely must end up at this crossroads sooner or later and I doubt any of them go into business to be crooks. Because I won't guarantee a car will make a 1500 mile drive, or certify that it's 100% matching numbers, or promise that it doesn't leak, well, I must have something to hide. Where do you draw the line between unreasonable expectations and unscrupulous sales? Was the MG buyer an idiot for thinking that car would be good in the winter or was I the bad guy for not listening to what he was actually saying and selling him a car that was unfit for his needs? Either way, I'm the guy with the business and reputation to protect, so I'm the guy who has to fix the situation. In most cases, the quickest, surest, easiest solution is to simply throw money at the problem. Would he have sued me? Meh. Would I have won? Undoubtedly. How much would it have cost me to find out? A whole lot more than the profit on that MG. Taking a $0 is literally the best I can hope for in those situations.

 

So what lesson do I learn from this? Don't let grown men make their own decisions? Tell people to go jump in a lake when they are unhappy with a car (even if it is their own fault)? The disclaimers just get longer, but it doesn't stop people from making the attempt anyway.

 

No, I'm not sure there's a lesson to learn beyond the fact that no matter what you do, someone will find a way to be unhappy about it.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

22 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Just this morning I had a conversation with a young woman who was interested in a

1956 Chevrolet wagon I have for sale.  She wanted to use it as a daily driver. 

...She got offended and told me that she comes from a long line of car people and understands old cars.

 

I can see your harrowing experiences, Matt.

So she understands old cars, but yet she had to ask you

about driving it daily?  Clearly she didn't understand

old cars very well!  

 

"I'm an antique car collector and have been around

Tri-five Chevys my whole life.  Uh, what's this third pedal

on the floor?"

[Matt Harwood]

3 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

I can see your harrowing experiences, Matt.

So she understands old cars, but yet she had to ask you

about driving it daily?  Clearly she didn't understand

old cars very well!  

 

"I'm an antique car collector and have been around

Tri-five Chevys my whole life.  Uh, what's this third pedal

on the floor?"

 

Well, I think her question goes back to my original interpretation of the question being about the car's mechanical fitness, not whether it's a good idea to drive it every day. Either way, I guess someone's going to be unhappy.

[mike6024]

I don't think daily driving around Reno would be too challenging. Not like commuting daily one hour-plus each way in heavy traffic in the bay area. Stop and go on the freeway during commute hours, or worse can be if traffic is flowing well, then you need to jump on the brake quick because it came to a standstill for no apparent reason, and you can't see far enough ahead to know why.

[wayne sheldon]

Matt,

My family's business was communications systems contracting. We designed, built and maintained all sorts of electronic and electrical communications and control systems. Systems we worked on ranged from cutting edge high technologies to trying to fix a lot of horrible trash badly built by other contractors.

I could write for days the horror stories dealing with people that understood nothing about what we did, or the crooks that we often had to deal with. 

One case, dragged through the courts for a couple years. In retrospect, we found that the 'elected managers' we had to deal with had planned from the beginning to cheat us for personal profit. If we could have proven that? We could have collected a huge settlement. But there was no way to prove that. The unpaid 'contested' balance due to us was about $30,000. In the end, we won all the suits and countersuits, collecting nearly $60,000 for the general damages! Unfortunately, it had cost us well over $50,000 to win those suits. So we still lost on the deal.

Was it worth it? Maybe. We were a few dollars ahead of if we had just written it off. And there was some satisfaction in knowing that in addition to paying us the $60K, they had also spent way over $100K on lawyers and court costs! The sad part was, that the 'elected managers' didn't have to pay it all themselves (they were the ones that started the scam from the beginning!). The people that elected them got stuck with a lot of the costs and losses. But I think they may have deserved it also.

 

Cluelessly stupid people, arrogant jerks, and criminally driven people are in all areas of life.

[wayne sheldon]

16 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

I don't think daily driving around Reno would be too challenging. Not like commuting daily one hour-plus each way in heavy traffic in the bay area. Stop and go on the freeway during commute hours, or worse can be if traffic is flowing well, then you need to jump on the brake quick because it came to a standstill for no apparent reason, and you can't see far enough ahead to know why.

 

I have driven in Reno more than a few times a few years ago. Although the area is much smaller than say the San Francisco Bay Area, Los Angeles, or the Eastern seaboard, and is surrounded by desert for hundreds of miles in three directions (to the West, mountains and forests are about fifty miles away)? During rush hour, it is almost as bad as the Bay Area (where I lived and/or worked much of my life!). It can take three quarters of an hour to get ten miles across town on or off the freeway! Been there. Done that.

[JamesR]

I went to the "dealer" (a very small lot owned by an acquaintance) where I bought my old wagon several years ago, and was discouraged to see a youngish couple buying a mid to late 1960's Chrysler four door as their everyday driver (as in the guy who bought the yellow MG from Matt.) When I complimented the lady on the car (it was cool) she told me it would be the family's one and only vehicle. She also said that neither she or her husband knew that much about cars. The reason I was discouraged was because they had two or three small kids in tow, and I was thinking about how often that car was going to leave that family stranded. Let's just say this place wasn't Harwood Motors...I think the price on the Chrysler was around two grand, maybe 2500, and at that time that could buy you a somewhat presentable looking and somewhat (i.e. marginally) roadworthy car of it's type.

 

I suspect they bought the car to be different from their friends, not as the tool that would best serve their family. The parents didn't look like they were made of money, but they didn't look destitute, either. What do you do in a case like that? I'm not going to say something that messes up the dealer's sale. People have to live and learn, but I sure felt sorry for those kids.

Edited June 1, 2021 by JamesR (see edit history)

[alsancle]

22 minutes ago, JamesR said:

I went to the "dealer" (a very small lot owned by an acquaintance) where I bought my old wagon several years ago, and was discouraged to see a youngish couple buying a mid to late 1960's Chrysler four door as their everyday driver (as in the guy who bought the yellow MG from Matt.) When I complimented the lady on the car (it was cool) she told me it would be the family's one and only vehicle. She also said that neither she or her husband knew that much about cars. The reason I was discouraged was because they had two or three small kids in tow, and I was thinking about how often that car was going to leave that family stranded. Let's just say this place wasn't Harwood Motors...I think the price on the Chrysler was around two grand, maybe 2500, and at that time that could buy you a somewhat presentable looking and somewhat (i.e. marginally) roadworthy car of it's type.

 

I suspect they bought the car to be different from their friends, not as the tool that would best serve their family. The parents didn't look like they were made of money, but they didn't look destitute, either. What do you do in a case like that? I'm not going to say something that messes up the dealer's sale. People have to live and learn, but I sure felt sorry for those kids.

 

I would tend to agree with you,  except that used car market is horrible and over priced.   You might not be able to find a better car for the 2k.

[Bloo]

I take it you haven't driven many miles in 60s Chryslers.....

 

I had one that I called my daily. It was my daily in the winter, and on long trips, and whenever I wasn't driving a "project". It was getting close to 400k miles when it got wrecked in the mid 90s. Worn out? Yes completely, but well maintained. Always started in stupid cold weather. I recall one winter when it was way below 0F every night for weeks, and a lot of that between -10 and -20. Never boiled in Eastern Washington hot weather. It gets over 100F here every August. Never vapor locked. I took it out of state and to Canada without even thinking about it when I could afford the gas and oil. For about 10 years of that I wasn't even carrying a jack, let alone any tools. It never had to be towed, not even once.

 

That's not quite the same thing as trying to drive a restored open MG on salted New England roads.

 

Of course there were always little projects and things to fix. Any old car needs more maintenance than something from the 2000s era, but that was just a known expected thing. Maybe it isn't widely known now. I would be more concerned that they said they didn't know much about cars.

 

[Larry Schramm]

8 hours ago, AHa said:

 he obviously was working with one brick less than a full load, which was understandably difficult for him. It sounds like he genuinely did not know better. As absurd as it may seem, there are more of them than there are of us. I hope you don't have to learn this lesson again. Sadly, it took several tries for me.

 

Are you sure he had any bricks on the truck?

[JamesR]

Bloo, their inexperience was actually the point of my comment. That and the little kids, who depend unquestioningly on their parents doing the right thing (i.e., that which is in the children's best interest.) My Chrysler minivan is 15 years old, has 185,000 miles on it, has a little rust and is probably worth what those folks paid for their New Yorker or whatever it was. I replaced the engine at 136,000 (with a used unit with slightly less miles on it.) I figure my van has another 30-50k decent dependable miles on it. We aren't short of money, we just keep every day cars a long time so whenever something's wrong I get it fixed without putting it off. There are thousands of vehicles like my van on the used market. Some of them are junk, and some of them are dependable.

 

However, there are aren't many old cars in the collector market in my van's price/value range ($2500) that have my van's level of dependability (motor replacement aside.) Even at twice that value. I drove it to the west coast and back last month to pick my son up from college, then drove it 4 hours to Iowa and back to pick up my daughter from college. I personally felt there was relatively little risk involved in doing that and I didn't feel I was taking a chance making the trips. It ran great, other than the oil sensor in the dash acting up around Tempe.

 

Now, parents exposing little kids to old American cars from the 70's or earlier is a good way to get kids to love old cars. Conversely, depending solely on such cars (and getting the family stranded frequently as a result) might be a good way to get kids to hate them.