Musk's Cyber Truck speed bump

[Locomobile]

1 hour ago, auburnseeker said:

It's meant to sucker in the people that think they are being all environmentally friendly buying a car probably not even knowing where the power is coming from to recharge it or how much pollution the batteries are going to create to be made,  shipped and replaced.

 

Or the many Children that work in the mines to get the minerals all these batteries require.

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/01/child-labour-behind-smart-phone-and-electric-car-batteries/

 

"The glamourous shop displays and marketing of state of the art technologies are a stark contrast to the children carrying bags of rocks, and miners in narrow manmade tunnels risking permanent lung damage."

 

-Ron

[TerryB]

Sure glad that never happened here in the USA.  My grandfather was a breaker boy in PA hard coal country.

 

 

[John348]

21 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

 

Or the many Children that work in the mines to get the minerals all these batteries require.

 

Just like the clothes that we wear....... 

Edited December 4, 2019 by John348 (see edit history)

[WQ59B]

5 hours ago, ply33 said:

You don't need those charging stations: Most people will charge at home, much cheaper and more convenient. The need for public charging stations is mostly for long distance driving.

There's a Tesla supercharger station right near my house, so I observe it pretty regularly. It's not on an interstate / long-distance route.
At any given 8-11AM weekday, there are around 5 Teslas there, charging.
Certainly gives the impression that a LOT of people who spend many times over the average new car price and obviously can afford an at-home charger, prefer to charge for free. Because with the mileage Teslas get- they should be near 100% at 9 in the morning.

[TerryB]

7 minutes ago, WQ59B said:

There's a Tesla supercharger station right near my house, so I observe it pretty regularly. It's not on an interstate / long-distance route.
At any given 8-11AM weekday, there are around 5 Teslas there, charging.
Certainly gives the impression that a LOT of people who spend many times over the average new car price and obviously can afford an at-home charger, prefer to charge for free. Because with the mileage Teslas get- they should be near 100% at 9 in the morning.

Many times over the average new car?  Have you priced a new car or pickup recently?  

[3macboys]

Let me preface this with I'm not an electric car person and I'm not sure that I ever see myself being one but I can see where they fit in for some people and applications.  That being said I can't help but think that the Teslas and electrics in general are simply a new different car culture that really isn't so different from those of us that will take a road trip in an old car.  In my newish truck I can get nearly 600 miles out of a tank of fuel if I'm not too hard on the go pedal and I'm happy to drive as far as I can, but if I were to take my 66 Coronet I really have no idea how far I could push it but after about 2 to 3 hours I'm ready to get out and stretch and fuel up plus I look forward to the chat at the pumps with whoever is around and takes an interest in the car.  When I see the cars at the local Tesla charging station the owners/drivers seem to gather around with each other or anyone who wanders over to chat with them.  Is it really any different than a classic car tour?  Maybe part of the ownership is the social aspect.  Just possibly the rest of us are missing something in what might be a return to the slower way of travelling that forces you to get off the interstate/freeway and discover some communities that the rest of just pass right on by.  

[WQ59B]

20 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Many times over the average new car?  Have you priced a new car or pickup recently?  

Yep.
Average new car transaction price is around $34K.
Model S starts at $81K, Model X at $86K.

[auburnseeker]

55 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Sure glad that never happened here in the USA.  My grandfather was a breaker boy in PA hard coal country.

 

 

Because it use to happen here doesn't make it right in a foreign country now.  The difference is we didn't know better back then and everyone worked because there was no free loading off the gov't.  Want to eat,  you worked. Mom or Dad couldn't work,  kids stepped in and did it to support the family.  

The difference between the two as well,  is you might start in this position but you could end up owning the cola company here.  Tho opportunity was there.   In a communist country,  you start here and usually end up here as there is no promotion. 

[TerryB]

11 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

Because it use to happen here doesn't make it right in a foreign country now.  The difference is we didn't know better back then and everyone worked because there was no free loading off the gov't.  Want to eat,  you worked. Mom or Dad couldn't work,  kids stepped in and did it to support the family.  

The difference between the two as well,  is you might start in this position but you could end up owning the cola company here.  Tho opportunity was there.   In a communist country,  you start here and usually end up here as there is no promotion. 

Your last statement is not true, at least in China.  As I said earlier I have been there and seen things firsthand.  Yes there is a chain of command and there are workers and bosses and you can find a way to work your way up, usually with education and dedication to your employer.  There are many well off Chinese living a similar good life like ours, going to Starbucks for coffee, shopping in upscale malls and buying fine cars.  Communism is around but capitalism is too. 

 

Here in my area young kids kids are involved in farm work because their religion encourages it.  Several kids this year have died in farming accidents even though our state work laws would normally not allow them to do that work if they were not part of a religious group.  They have been granted an exception from those rules and at times pay the price for that.

 

Coal barons took took advantage of both kids and adults.  The coal region was the birthplace of labor unions to break the stranglehold the coal owners had on the workers, the garment industry was right behind them in taking advantage of children and women.  Yes, we should know better today and protect children from dangerous working conditions.  Took us a while to buy into that mindset and will continue to take time as manufacturing grows to be a global endeavor.

[mike6024]

There is a Model X Tesla SUV parked at one of our strip malls all the time. Belongs to the owner of a franchise fast food BBQ place. The more money a business owner spends on a vehicle, the more they can deduct. So more power to them. But it doesn't imply it is the most economical choice.

[Matt Harwood]

It seems that there's a prevailing opinion that if an act doesn't solve 100% of the problem, we shouldn't even try. Or because there's a problem, if you're not suffering you're not really trying to solve it. Or is it just if someone don't feel like changing, everyone else should feel the same way? I guess I'm asking this: why does anyone care if other people want to sell, buy, and drive electric cars, whatever their reasons? For example, I really don't understand why people buy 700 horsepower Lamborghini trucks--I don't get it, but I don't care, either.

 

Nobody's forcing anybody into electric cars, they aren't doing any harm and may actually be helping in a small way, yet the people who get most upset about electric cars are the people who don't seem to care at all about the problem. Worse, many insist that they would help but since there's no easy, quick answer they decide it's a mistake to even try. They come up with all kinds of rationalizations for why they just won't bother. It's like they suspect there's a problem and electric cars only remind them that they don't care enough to do anything about it.

I'm also amused by comments that electric car drivers are misguided hypocrites for driving cars of any kind instead of walking or riding bicycles. Yet if someone actually does that, they're condemned as sanctimonious jerks whose personal contributions don't matter one bit in the grand scheme of things because the problem is just too big. And somehow all the people who say electric cars are bad and the environment doesn't need any help are suddenly very, very concerned about the environmental impact of all those new power plants that might need to be built to charge electric cars, and oh God, what about the batteries?

 

Man, we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!

 

It's like we went from "we don't have to change anything because it's not as bad as we think" to "nothing we do will change anything, so why bother?" with nothing in-between.

 

2 hours ago, mercer09 said:

Randy, who in their right mind drives a car named Leaf?????????????

 

sad.

 

And if logic fails entirely, I guess you can still make fun of the name.

 

1 hour ago, Locomobile said:

 

Or the many Children that work in the mines to get the minerals all these batteries require.

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/01/child-labour-behind-smart-phone-and-electric-car-batteries/

 

"The glamourous shop displays and marketing of state of the art technologies are a stark contrast to the children carrying bags of rocks, and miners in narrow manmade tunnels risking permanent lung damage."

 

-Ron

 

Awesome, you're taking a stand against child labor. I respect that. I assume you don't use a laptop or a cell phone or cordless tools or anything else with rechargeable batteries because of this child labor, am I correct? Does your wife have any diamonds? Wear athletic shoes? Are you 100% certain you aren't using any electricity that is generated by coal--I understand coal mining is pretty bad for your lungs and hurts the kids that live near the mines. 

 

3 minutes ago, WQ59B said:

Yep.
Average new car transaction price is around $34K.
Model S starts at $81K, Model X at $86K.

 

Priced a diesel dually lately?

[John348]

1 hour ago, WQ59B said:

Yep.
Average new car transaction price is around $34K.
Model S starts at $81K, Model X at $86K.

 

I thought that Tesla's were considered in the high end luxury car price market,

[WQ59B]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

Priced a diesel dually lately?

Yep.
But a diesel dually isn't the average new vehicle- price-wise, is it?

I just find it interesting that people who seemingly have no where to be at 9:30 in the AM, have spent anywhere from $85K-120K on a vehicle, who obviously can afford a home charger & it's installation... make a point of sitting for an hour in a parking lot merely to top off with like $3 of free electric. It's a bit of a head-scratcher.

[John348]

3 minutes ago, WQ59B said:

But a diesel dually isn't the average new vehicle- price-wise, is it?

 

And neither is the Tesla

[Locomobile]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

I respect that. I assume you don't use a laptop or a cell phone or cordless tools or anything else with rechargeable batteries because of this child labor, am I correct?

 

That is mostly correct, the amount of lithium based batteries I use wouldn't propel one of these EV's two inches. In this day and age of our "civilized" society, although horrific acts are being committed daily, no child anywhere should be required to work period and especially not in a dangerous environment.

 

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

It's like we went from "we don't have to change anything because it's not as bad as we think" to "nothing we do will change anything, so why bother?" with nothing in-between.

 

Oh there is plenty in between, if you want an electric car have it, but I've been watching how all this works for a long time and listening to the "green new deal" politicians. This isn't about climate, it's about more control of the masses, and implementing any and every new tax possible along the way. As I wrote, if one wants an EV, have at it, but when the rest of us are taxed out of our vehicles of choice and forced in to an EV or public transit, then it's too late. That is what they are pushing for. People laughed when I said medical insurance would be more expensive under Obamacare, they aren't laughing now. Be careful what ya ask for.

 

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

Are you 100% certain you aren't using any electricity that is generated by coal

 

I certainly hope it is, I understand the carbon emitted by coal is raising the temperature, not sure if you've noticed, but we could use some global warming as cold as these winters are getting. I about wore out my snowblower the last few winters in Michigan. Coldest winter on record in 2014-15, the great lakes froze over 100%, never happened before in recorded history,  funny though, none of the climate alarmists mentioned it. Or those who would discuss it gave me the usual blanket reply to any glaring contradictory evidence that their argument is hollow "That's part of it!" It could be snowing in July - "That's part of it"

 

-Ron

[WQ59B]

24 minutes ago, John348 said:

And neither is the Tesla

But that wasn't the point.

 

32 minutes ago, WQ59B said:

I just find it interesting that people who seemingly have no where to be at 9:30 in the AM, have spent anywhere from $85K-120K on a vehicle, who obviously can afford a home charger & it's installation... make a point of sitting for an hour in a parking lot merely to top off with like $3 of free electric. It's a bit of a head-scratcher.

 

[mercer09]

The more money a business owner spends on a vehicle, the more they can deduct.

 

 

 

deductions are vastly over rated. Ild rather keep the cash in my pocket.

 

 

Uncle Sam changes the programs yearly besides..........................

[John348]

11 hours ago, WQ59B said:

Yep.
Average new car transaction price is around $34K.
Model S starts at $81K, Model X at $86K.

 

The point was/is is that the Tesla is not an average price car car, it is priced at the luxury level market. Your the one who compared it to the average car price, which will be a skewed number in this case. You might as well compare a Jaguar to the average car price, Two different markets and buyers. A majority of the people who purchase or lease a Tesla (or any high level vehicle for that matter) only own it for a few years (2-3) They buy those cars because they like it and they can afford to. Cars in the low 30's the price drives the car sale 

Edited December 4, 2019 by John348 (see edit history)

[WQ59B]

Obviously I'm aware of the Tesla MSRPs; I posted them.
I was not comparing Tesla transaction prices to mainstream prices. To the contrary, I was illustrating how people spending a 'couple times over average' new car price seemingly still 'need' to charge for free.

[mercer09]

I was illustrating how people spending a 'couple times over average' new car price seemingly still 'need' to charge for free.

 

think its more of a  "hey look at me"

[39BuickEight]

11 hours ago, WQ59B said:

Yep.
But a diesel dually isn't the average new vehicle- price-wise, is it?

I just find it interesting that people who seemingly have no where to be at 9:30 in the AM, have spent anywhere from $85K-120K on a vehicle, who obviously can afford a home charger & it's installation... make a point of sitting for an hour in a parking lot merely to top off with like $3 of free electric. It's a bit of a head-scratcher.

 

As mentioned, its because those people just want to be seen.  It's an odd mental dynamic that the free market seems to cultivate. 

[WQ59B]

Bizarre mindset; where an hour spent at the edge of a parking lot only populated by the same brand strokes one’s ego.

So I guess these 9AM chargers are purposefully not plugging at home just so they can orchestrate this?

Bizarre.

[auburnseeker]

One could say it's no different than us old car guys congregating,  except usually the cars are all different and we a converging to appreciate the difference in them as well as learn about the differences and not compare how all of them are the exactly the same except color. 

[30DodgePanel]

17 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

 If you want to help save the planet stop driving any car and buy a bicycle.   Then they would really be doing their part. 

 

Tried finding a pic of AOC riding a bike just for giggles... yeah,,,  not happening. All I could find was her riding in gas vehicles twice the size of any vehicle most of us own.

 

Maybe we can get her on one of these though? Just a thought

 

[bryankazmer]

No statistics here, but in Michigan most of the Tesla's I see are Model S - the expensive sedan.  In California the Model 3, which starts around $34k, are often seen.

I suspect that has to do with several regional differences, but certainly the much higher fuel prices in California help

[TerryB]

Sure is hard to believe anybody would be interested in looking at a bunch of cars that are all basically the same.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by TerryB (see edit history)

[mercer09]

 

One could say it's no different than us old car guys congregating,  except usually the cars are all different and we a converging to appreciate the difference in them as well as learn about the differences and not compare how all of them are the exactly the same except color. 

 

 

 

I hear musk is starting something called "cars and coffee" for tesla owners.................................

[John348]

2 hours ago, mercer09 said:

I was illustrating how people spending a 'couple times over average' new car price seemingly still 'need' to charge for free.

 

think its more of a  "hey look at me"

 

2 hours ago, 39BuickEight said:

 

As mentioned, its because those people just want to be seen.  It's an odd mental dynamic that the free market seems to cultivate. 

 

That has been pretty the case with automobiles since the mid-20's. Henry Ford had a real tough time accepting that consumers wanted more then just basic transportation, and Ford Motor Company suffered for that in the mid to late 20's. 

[Daves1940Buick56S]

I hesitate to weigh in here, but I will add one thing. The inductive charging for a moving vehicle that was mentioned above is going to be extremely lossy due to the laws of physics. You're going to have ohmic, reactive, and coupling losses all simultaneously. I've seen videos of small models on tracks but it doesn't scale up. It could be done, of course, but you would be negating all of your increased efficiency by using electric over IC. I looked into this a couple of years ago on a project I was advising on. For a moving vehicle, the only thing that would work well would be some kind of third rail arrangement with a direct pickup.

 

Cheers, Dave

[JACK M]

6 minutes ago, Daves1940Buick56S said:

I hesitate to weigh in here, but I will add one thing. The inductive charging for a moving vehicle that was mentioned above is going to be extremely lossy due to the laws of physics. You're going to have ohmic, reactive, and coupling losses all simultaneously. I've seen videos of small models on tracks but it doesn't scale up. It could be done, of course, but you would be negating all of your increased efficiency by using electric over IC. I looked into this a couple of years ago on a project I was advising on. For a moving vehicle, the only thing that would work well would be some kind of third rail arrangement with a direct pickup.

 

Cheers, Dave

 

Seems I remember a whole bus line running off of over head wires in Seattle, I recall as a kid that once in awhile one of the followers would fall off of the cable and the driver would get out with a pole and hook it back up.

I tend to avoid any down towns any more, especially one as big as Seattle, but those busses may still be in use.

[MochetVelo]

The Tesla and Rivian pick-ups are really SUV's with short (6'-6.5') beds, designed more as people carriers. In fact, most pick-ups seem to be used this way. 

I look forward to the Electric F150, scheduled for release in 2021. I probably won't be able to afford it, however.

 

 

[mike6024]

43 minutes ago, Daves1940Buick56S said:

some kind of third rail arrangement with a direct pickup.

 

That would be a game changer, and make me want an electric. Don't think it is possible though. I was thinking a groove cut in the middle of the lane with a high voltage wire in it. Very dangerous, impractical, etc, though.

 

 

[ply33]

1 hour ago, JACK M said:

 

Seems I remember a whole bus line running off of over head wires in Seattle, I recall as a kid that once in awhile one of the followers would fall off of the cable and the driver would get out with a pole and hook it back up.

I tend to avoid any down towns any more, especially one as big as Seattle, but those busses may still be in use.

 

Can't say about Seattle, but they are still running electric trolley busses in San Francisco: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_San_Francisco

[WQ59B]

3 hours ago, TerryB said:

Sure is hard to believe anybody would be interested in looking at a bunch of cars that are all basically the same.

Do people commonly see Model A's in traffic, next to them in a parking lot, or anywhere in a given day?

A -say- Model A meet would encompass numerous different years with different specs, numerous different body styles, stock, survivor, restored &/or modified cars, plus the aforementioned rarity in everyday life. Tho they hold very little interest for me personally, there's plenty to see/learn. Plus most owners work on their cars, so there's a myriad of discussions on technique, progress, parts location, vendors/restoration references, etc.

Teslas are all over the place, I see one every 15 mins out on the road. They're totally commonplace and they're all the same (model-to-model), all serviced by the company/never worked on by the owner. There's no restoration and most owners have little idea how they work. A pointed gathering of Teslas, where there are only 8 years of only 3 body types would be as interesting as watching paint dry.

[padgett]

"I picked midnight as that is when the "super off peak" " Not in a Florida summer when the low temp is above moat AC settings & humidity is above the dew point.

 

BTW I remember going to a Grand National gathering at Dennis Kirban's and thinking I'd turning into a government parking lot.

[maok]

4 hours ago, bryankazmer said:

No statistics here, but in Michigan most of the Tesla's I see are Model S - the expensive sedan.  In California the Model 3, which starts around $34k, are often seen.

I suspect that has to do with several regional differences, but certainly the much higher fuel prices in California help

 

There was post on FB a few days ago that the Model 3 is the 3rd best selling car in California, behind two Japanese manufacturer models.

[Digger914]

Like it or not we are being encouraged to drive electric. Just back from squeezing my 15mpg Tahoe into a $7 per hour parking ramp. If I'd had an RV thick extension cord to a dummy plug in the fender, I could have used the free on street electric vehicle parking next to the on street charging stations.

[ply33]

4 hours ago, mercer09 said:

 

One could say it's no different than us old car guys congregating,  except usually the cars are all different and we a converging to appreciate the difference in them as well as learn about the differences and not compare how all of them are the exactly the same except color. 

 

I hear musk is starting something called "cars and coffee" for tesla owners.................................

 

There is a "cars and coffee" gathering at the local mall/shopping center in my town. They get several hundred cars showing up each Saturday morning. I attended once and found that there were a handful of original or restored to original older cars, maybe 6 or 8 including mine. Only two of those, including mine, were pre-WW2. There were a fair number of modifieds. But the biggest group seemed to be late model expensive and/or performance cars. The point for for the spectators and most people showing cars seemed to be who wrote the biggest check at the dealer recently. So basically lots of cars but none of interest to me or, I assume, many on this forum which is dedicated to original or restored to original vehicles.

 

In my mind there is not much difference between owners of late model Corvettes, Mustangs, Ferraris, etc. getting together and owners of Teslas. Some may have slightly customized their cars with aftermarket appearance or performance parts but to me they are  all "exactly the same except color." By all appearances, there are more people interested in those than in cars from 1900 through 1970. So we are a minority.

 

31 minutes ago, Digger914 said:

Like it or not we are being encouraged to drive electric. Just back from squeezing my 15mpg Tahoe into a $7 per hour parking ramp. If I'd had an RV thick extension cord to a dummy plug in the fender, I could have used the free on street electric vehicle parking next to the on street charging stations.

 

Yikes! For a daily driver I want something that sips gas, is reasonably comfortable and, of course, reliable. My 2004 car averaged just under 45 MPG in the 201,000 miles I drove it. I'd still be driving it if it hadn't been totaled. My new car is averaging about 83 MPG so far at 25,000 miles. Though I see lots of them everyday, I can't imagine having a daily driver that got such lousy mileage and is hard to park because of its size. Yes, my '33 gets between 14 and 18 MPG depending on how it is driven, but that is basically a toy for when I feel like puttering around some back roads. Not something for going to work and doing errands in (though I do some errands in it when it isn't raining and the mood strikes me).

[auburnseeker]

2 hours ago, mike6024 said:

 

That would be a game changer, and make me want an electric. Don't think it is possible though. I was thinking a groove cut in the middle of the lane with a high voltage wire in it. Very dangerous, impractical, etc, though.

 

 

Would cut down on the J walkers though. 

[oldcarfudd]

I want to comment on a couple of the most recent posts.

 

1.  I, too, would like a gas-sipper (or electric) car for my daily driver.  But I play with brass cars, which I haul in a 24-foot box trailer to (mostly) HCCA tours.  I can't do that with a Miata or an electric.  I have a VW diesel Touareg that gets about 25 mpg in normal driving (about half my annual mileage) and 12  when dragging a trailer (the other half).  It would be a LOT more expensive to have a second daily driver to use when I wasn't hauling a trailer, than just to put up with 25 mpg instead of 50 or 60 in daily driving.

 

2.  I also go to cars-and-coffee events, but I drive (I don't trailer) a brass car.  I get very little chance to see the other cars - and, in truth, there aren't many I want to spend time looking at - because I'm mobbed with people, both casual spectators and the other car guys, wanting to know how my car works.  I'm forever cranking, or pulling off some part, or pointing out the primitive but effective ways people did things 100+ years ago.  Last Saturday I let a couple of guys crank my one-lung Cadillac, and they were enthralled.  My favorite question, from non-car-guy spectators:  "Does that car really run?"  My reply:  "I sure hope so, 'cause it's too heavy to carry and too far to push!"