Was quality really this bad in the 1970s?

[Larry Schramm]

On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 11:58 AM, 28 Chrysler said:

I had a 1969 Toyota Corolla, it made it to just over 41,000 miles it before it needed a new head. The repair was going to be almost the same price as a new new 1973 Corolla.

I was working in a body shop and a almost new Fairmont wagon came in. Opening the rear the gate it moved every which way. the left bolts were out a good 1/2" and one right one had one bolt that was kind of tight.

 

In those years, Toyota had a large cracking head problem.  You could buy a complete 4 cylinder head with valves, springs, everything including the head gasket for only $100.00.  It was part of a tune up.

[DonMicheletti]

I had an older friend who owned a Volkswagen, Audi & Porsche dealership.

Earlier on he was a Chrysler dealer. He told me "I was ashamed to sell those cars because I knew that the door handles would fall off before they got home with them".

 

He also told me he could not sell a Chrysler against Buick.

[ch1929]

Working as a Flat Rate Tech in a Ford Dealership in the early seventies, I had a 72 Ford Station Wagon come in with a no heat from the heater complaint. While inspecting the heater components, I found the cable operated doors in the heater box would not move. After removing the heater box assembly and taking it apart, I found 6 Ignition Lock Cylinders with keys jammed into the open space in the heater box. Quality Job One! A while later I had a customer come in with a new LTD who said he wanted to check the tire pressure but could not find the valve stem. No problem just pull the wheel cover and guess what! No valve stem! When they mounted the tires on wheels at the factory the machine would shoot high pressure air between the tire bead and the rim to seat the beads on to the rim. I had to drill a hole in the rim to let the air out of the tire. Again Quality Job One!

I also remember replacing a large number of camshafts in 2000cc Pinto engines as they wiped the lobes off the shafts.

[Bud Tierney]

Might as well add a couple more...

My brother worked for a GM dealer, maybe Pontiac, as a mechanic late 60s/early 70s??  When shipment came in (RR then) ALL the mechanics went down to the yards with the drivers, because they had to work on, sometimes add parts in back seat or trunk, to get them running...

Even worse was when living in Riverside, 60s, wife went to work for co that'd gotten a military contract to build one of the early AA rockets. Put her in assembly section where off-the-street people were "assembling": finely machined parts with whatever force necessary...transferred her to another section where people painting greyish round things black. Had no idea what they were (all hush-hush, need to know, no instruction other than told her put this on that etc) until one rolled off table and everyone freaked...she quit the next day.

[emjay]

One of my mentors years ago made a statement that would apply here.  Management has but one way to stick it to you, but until they do, the employee has so many more ways to stick it to the employer.  An employee or employees can make life absolutely miserable for the company.  No the point is not that the employees are bad.  It's that management has a bigger responsibility than most are willing to take on or even acknowledge.  Something on the lines of actually believing that "Our associates are our most important resource."  They have to make the employees care and a start is to make them feel valued.  Grant it that would have been real difficult in a I put bolt 34 in hole 33 environment.

 

Also if "Number 2 has to work harder" (Avis), what do you think number 13 is doing?

 

[Zimm63]

My Mother bought a 74 "Dodge" Colt, built by Mitsubishi.  Fun little car with a stout drivetrain.  Only thing was, it literally dissolved in about 2 years to the point that the strut towers were so rusted that it was no longer safe to drive.  

[plymouthcranbrook]

On 5/9/2017 at 5:10 PM, Rusty_OToole said:

Quality was very bad in the seventies. One reason so many people switched to Japanese and German cars, they had the reputation of being better built. They looked good on the showroom floor and usually ran flawlessly for a long time. There were a few exceptions. I remember owners loved the first Honda Civics but they started to burn oil after 50,000 miles or so. If the owner checked the oil and topped it up no harm was done, if not you could burn out the engine in a few miles. One dealer I know took to tearing them down and putting in new rings before putting one on the used car lot. He knew he could sell them like hot cakes but they often came back with blown motors, and there were no used motors to be had.

 

Then there was the front fenders on the 240Z. I saw one in a body shop no more than a year old having new fenders put on, I hefted one and was surprised how light it was. The metal must have been paper thin.

 

Even so they were better than American cars. Chrysler turned out some rough looking Valiants and Darts, and the early Volares and Aspens must have ruined their reputation. Even the slant sixes were failing, and they had built up a bulletproof reputation over 15 years of service. But somehow they cheapened them to the point where they were failing under warranty.

i had read that the slant six went from a forged crank to a cast one. Cheaper to build and of course easier to sell you a replacement at 75,000 or 80,000 miles also

[Rusty_OToole]

11 hours ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

i had read that the slant six went from a forged crank to a cast one. Cheaper to build and of course easier to sell you a replacement at 75,000 or 80,000 miles also

There was never a problem with crankshafts, it was cam drive chains and sprockets and some other little nickle  and dime parts.

 

I saw some Darts and Valiants with very rough bodywork and paint jobs, and their successor the Aspen and Volare had terrible front suspension, rusty bodies, ugly looks and over all poor build quality.  Ford and GM were just as bad or worse.

 

The Japanese didn't take market share from the American car makers, they threw it away and the Japanese picked it up.

 

If they eventually made better cars it wasn't their idea, they were forced into it by foreign competition.

[JACK M]

13 hours ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

i had read that the slant six went from a forged crank to a cast one. Cheaper to build and of course easier to sell you a replacement at 75,000 or 80,000 miles also

My mom drove her 1967 Slant 300,000 miles. I did have to put a transmission in the Dart once.

She gave it up when the radiator failed on the mercer Island floating bridge.

I put a radiator in it and sold the car for a thousand more than we paid in January 68.

A much better car than the K model that replaced it.

 

I just bought a 64 Pickup with a Slant that has 122,000 on it if I read it right.

I didn't think a thing about the 1500 mile drive home. Oh, I did have some trouble with the windshield wipers.

IMHO the best American engine ever built. But mine were/are all early ones. (sixties)

[GMPARTSMAN]

From memory, 1973 was a real milestone in GM, my experience was mainly Chevrolet.

Fuel mileage dropped that year, 11-12 mpg in full size Impalas and Caprices on a good day. Paint issues, flaking off and rusting, the steel used in those bodies was poor quality at least until 1975. Lots of warranty claims. Then starting in 1975, the small block camshaft debacle. Let's see, service time. Lube. oil, filter, change camshaft. 

 

Enough poor quality, now let's get to screwups on the line.

Friend's parents bought a new 1970 Caprice. One fender had a 350 badge, the other a 400 badge.

We had a new 77 Camaro that came in from the plant, had vinyl seats EXCEPT for the passenger, it  was cloth. At least it color matched, Firethorn red. 77 Monte Carlo built without tilt column, window sticker showed tilt column as option. Wrong door trim panels, meh, no biggy. Now the best one I ever saw was a 72 Vega that was built as a "tag car" for a GM manager. That one got the "Full Monty" treatment. Service repair "hard copies" stack pushed down to flatten them out and it was still an inch thick, three years of service visits. Best part on that one, it was speced  out as a two barrel engine, it had a one barrel carburetor on it.

[Rusty_OToole]

73 Monte Carlos with rust blisters the size of grapefruit all over the body when less than 1 year old. And, a Monte Carlo was not a cheap car. It was Chev's personal luxury model. That was the year they went to water based paint and it lasted like water paint. Fords weren't any better. Aspen and Volare rusted out too but from the inside.

[Guest]

Well, everybody else has jumped in........

     I used to be pretty involved in the Corvette world, having owned close to 50 of them over the years. I was one of the original moderators on corvetteform almost 20 years ago, and I can tell you, without fear of contradiction, while there are some really terrific Corvette guys, some of them are the most anal retentive people you'll ever meet.

    At one of the pinnacle Corvette judging shows (which will remain nameless here) judges and fans were gathered around an early '63 or '64 coupe going for top honors in restoration. Two of the judges as well as the car's owner were arguing about the placement of a random check mark (that sequentially seemed to appear every 20 or 25 cars) on the driver's outside frame rail and got into quite a heated debate. One judge claiming this check mark was approximately four inches too far back, the other judge insisting it had been reproduced in the correct spot. Of course the anxious public and even the judges had no idea what the original meaning of the check mark was but, seeing as it was on this particular car prior to restoration, it needed to be redone correctly as part of the job. After much debate an older fellow steps forward from the crowd and announces that he'd worked on the St. Louis Corvette assembly line back in '63 and he could easily clear this up. Which he did when he said "We were having some trouble with the Saginaw steering boxes. That wasn't a check mark. It was an "L" which meant "Leaker" so it could be corrected before it left the plant". 

......experts, UGH! 

[John_S_in_Penna]

A lot of entries in this discussion have been

very interesting.  In many cases, these observations

have noted the absolute worst examples that were

produced during that decade.  I enjoy hearing those stories. 

 

There were also a lot of satisfied customers with relatively

reliable cars, and Consumer Reports gave "better than average"

and "much better than average" ratings to some cars too.

 

No one should be dissuaded from enjoying cars of that decade.

The Lincoln Mark V's, the Cadillac Eldorado convertibles, and so on,

have a big following.  I know I enjoy 1970's cars, and since they

remain affordable, you can have two for the price of one.

[8E45E]

The first Dodge Aspens and Plymouth Volare's were VERY sub standard, which could be attributed to rushed production as they appeared a good two months after the usual new-car introduction time in September.   I remember looking at a brand new Volare wagon in the showroom, and the imitation wood trim was very poorly applied on the front fender, where the driver's door would rub against it as it was not stuck down where it folded around on the backside of the fender.  And that was just one of the loose ends those cars had when they were new. 

 

Craig

[John_S_in_Penna]

2 hours ago, 8E45E said:

The first Dodge Aspens and Plymouth Volare's were VERY sub standard...

 

Craig, old reports back you up precisely:

The Aspens and Volares were rated very poorly by Consumer Reports.

My "Consumer Reports Buying Guide Issue 1981," sort of a small

handbook-sized summary of all the 1974-79 products rated, gave those

models big black marks in many categories, and overall a rating

of "Much Worse than Average."

 

Imagine your child coming home with a school report card.

Was he doing "average" work, which would be a "C"?  No.

Was he doing "below average" work?  No.  He's labeled

Much Worse than Average!  You can see how low those cars were rated!

Edited May 12, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[sfair]

This was not so much a quality issue , but???

 

When I was in high school, a friend of mine ordered a new 1967 Chevelle. It was a 2 door post, no options except automatic, the medium metallic blue that seemed to fade after about a month. 250 emblems on the fender.

He did not give 2 hoots about cars. They were used to get from point A to B and that is all.

Of course, we did not pay any attention to it either.

One day, we were in the school parking lot at noon and he was commenting on how much power his six cylinder seems to have, and  we all laughed.

 

"OK, Bill, lets see the rocket ship that is under the hood".

 

Lifted the hood, and our eyes popped...there was sitting a 275 horse 327.

 

How could this happen?

[Guest]

It probably happened the same way that my aunt's '68 Chevelle wound up with something other than the 327 it was supposed to have.  It wasn't detected until my Uncle cussed up a blue streak wondering why the replacement water pump he bought wouldn't fit.  I can't remember exactly which engine the Chevelle actually had, but the sales contract and fender badges said "327".

[jrbartlett]

Quote

1973 Chevy Nova

We bought a Nova hatchback brand new. It was OK thru the warranty, but I was driving one day not long out of warranty and hit the brakes and heard a loud sloshing. I opened the hatch and pulled up the floor panel and the spare tire well was full of water, and all the interior metal there and across the back end was covered with rust. Turns out that the tail light gaskets were equivalent to the cheap, thin stick-on foam weatherstrip you buy at the box stores, and had leaked. I went to the Chevy dealer and bought replacement gaskets that had been redesigned, and were at least four times thicker and far better made. I think they cost $40 each -- a lot of money back then. Then I wrote a letter to GM saying that the gaskets should have been free since they were clearly redesigned to remedy a factory-caused problem. GM wrote back and basically said "tough." You can guess the outcome. Never could get all the rust out of that Nova. And I've not owned a GM vehicle since. I drive Ford and Lexus products.    

[Mark Simmons]

Speaking of Ford products let's not leave out pickups. I had a boss in the contracting business. He talked for weeks about the brand new F-350 he'd ordered from the factory,one of the very first generation ones. On the day it arrived he came to the job site in his same old truck. What's up with the new truck someone asked. Well he says I picked it up and when I stopped at the first stoplight in front of the dealership the whole front bumper fell off of it on to the street. We all laughed except the boss.  

[Vila]

In 1975 I bought a new Saab Wagonback which was, I believe, the first year of the Saab hatchback that was built with only minor changes thru 1992.  The same year my father-in-law bought a new Honda Civic station wagon.  

 

The Honda spent its entire life in Pennsylvania, while my Saab was in Pennsylvania, New Hampshire sea coast, Washington state, and Long Island NY, then finally back to PA for good.

 

Roll ahead 6 years.  After getting out of the US Air Force we returned to our home area in PA with 125,000 mile my Saab and it still looked brand new.  I remember being in the office of a service station (remember those days?) while the owner was inspecting my car in the first bay and another customer walked in and asked the station owner what year the Saab was.  He then took a look inside the car and said "this car look brand new, does this car really have 12,500 mile on it ".  The station owner said no you better look again, that is 125,000 miles."  The Saab ended up running over 300,000 miles when we go ride of it in the late 1980s.

 

The same 6 years later my father-in-law's Honda was so rusted there were silver dollar sized holes in the hood that rusted from the bottom side up and the structure that held the engine in was so rusted the car was junked a year later. 

 

Neither car was ever garaged.

 

I guess some cars were well built and others weren't.

 

 

 

[cheezestaak2000]

i love how people quote consumer reports. a couple things i noticed in their reviews. they hated the ford explorer sport (2 dr), but they loved the mazda navajo? both built on the same assy line. they also were not very fond of the ford t-bird back in the 80's, but loved the mercury cougar?

 i've seen a lot of things that pass for gospel over 40 plus years in various phases of the car business. like the 78 olds cutlass we got in at the dealership that had the prettiest, most perfectly assembled interior we got that whole year, too bad it was all for a buick regal, right down to the radio knobs! and there were the comments about fender rust on the honda civics? yep they would rust a little at the cak corner, but the part that concerned me was all of the front undercarrige that prompted a major recall. it seemed a few engines FELL OUT! while we're on the falling out engine theme, i acually saw it happen once on a corvair, i learned that wasn't all that un common.i guess having cars that look like they all came from the same cookie cutter is the price we pay today for all the auto makers past sins.

 

[Guest SaddleRider]

The rapid decline in "build quality" that infected the entire industry did not, in my opinion, start suddenly in the 1970's.    May I submit an example....!

 

By chance, I happened to meet the man who supervised the delivery of my "hobby car" to its original owner in the summer of 1938.  This was at the Earl C. Anthony Packard dealership in down-town Los Angeles, in the fall of 1954.  

 

We were discussing and exchanging examples of how we felt that the dismal build quality of post-war Packard products was getting worse each year, ( and, as it later turned out, quite obviously, would lead to the rejection of Packard products by the marketplace, and their eventual failure as a company) .

 

Some of the exchange between me and this fine old gentleman, was his description of how my 1938 Packard V-12 was received at the Earl C Anthony

dealership.   As a side note, the cars were built in Detroit, shipped by rail to Los Angeles, and then driven to the dealership to be "prepped" for delivery.   The dealer preparation in those days consisted of unwrapping the hub-caps and cigar lighters from their boxes in the trunks of the car, washing & polishing (the drive up from the South Gate rail-head was sufficient to get the battery up to full charge). 

 

I mentioned to him how, a month earlier, I'd been sitting on the curb at Beverly Hills Packard,  having lunch with some of the shop people  ( in those days they didn't have "service writers" as such - the job of initially interviewing the customer was typically given to the best and oldest senior mechanic.).   A transporter rolled up on which were a bunch of factory-fresh brand new '55 Packards.    The senior mechanic looked up from his lunch,  and then, in a torrent of obscenities,  said ( conversation cleaned up for this audience)     " HERE COMES ANOTHER BATCH OF 'DO-IT-YOURSELF' KITS".    (reflecting the obvious fact that the cars, as they left the Packard factory in later years,  were in no condition to be turned over to new owners without major re-work).

 

What is LEFT of the American auto industry benefited from the introduction of Japanese cars in the 1970's - Honda and Toyota had good "build quality".  I attribute the present good quality of so called "American" cars to our industry being shamed...being forced into cleaning up its act.

[Guest]

SaddleRider, your opinion on the Japanese shaming the American auto industry is horrible........but true. 

[sfair]

The RV industry, today, is where the auto industry was in the 70's.

[Mark Gregory]

I guess this is why Phil Edmonton Lemon Aid Car books took off .

 

In 1968 he founded the Automobile Protection Association (APA), which uncovered and disseminated information about automobile defects and successfully pressured the auto industry for several recalls. Edmonston was president of the APA until 1987. In that role, he worked on thousands of consumer claims against automobile manufacturers and won million-dollar settlements and hundreds of lawsuits for consumers.^[2]

His work with the association led to the Lemon-Aid series of car manuals, issued annually since the 1970s.

Edmonston has served as a pro bono witness on automobile defects and safety before numerous courts and government committees. In 1982, he testified on inadequate automobile quality and rust protection before the United States Senate Subcommittee on Technology and successfully pressured Ford to become the first automaker to provide a corrosion compensation warranty.

He is the author of over 100 best-selling books on consumer rights and the automobile industry.^[2]

Edited May 13, 2017 by Mark Gregory (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

Early (1960 to 1964) Corvair engines did not"fall out" as was commonly reported, but the rear motor mount nut came off due to a missing cottter pin. This was not build quality issue, but a sloppy mechanic issue down the road. Sure the back of the engine (the part you can see, rear engine you know) was visible on the ground, or close to it, but simply jacking the engine back into place and putting a new nut and cotter pin on fixed the issue!

 

I have worked on many early Corvairs and seen missing cotter pins. Why more didn't fall out is a better question!

 

1965 brought a design change of two nuts instead of one, and they were distorted locknuts (not Nylocks). No more cotter pins to loose. They now had to loose two locknuts.

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

On May 7, 2017 at 7:18 PM, vermontboy said:

I had a '78 Fairmont with a Fairmont logo on the hood and a Zephyr logo on the trunk lid. I bought it new.

That happened to my friend's Dad.

he bought a Ford Maverick. It said Comet on the right side and had Mercury taillights 

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

On May 8, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Frantz said:

I got the sense he was just playing and the typo went along well with the notion of imperfect car production. Internet sarcasm can be hard to read sometimes.

I was going to tell him he misspelled 'surely'.

But, I'm sure to get surly reply.....

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

On May 9, 2017 at 11:27 AM, plymouthcranbrook said:

I could go on and on about 70's cars I owned and what I found wrong but I was really amazed with the shoddy workmanship of my 1980 Volare that I bought in 2007 with 8500 miles on it. Primer not overcoated, glue spread allover the  doors, weather seal leaking on the front and back windows. I spend ages fixing stuff just to keep it from rusting away. I was so amazed when I bought my first new car since 1983 in 2012. A Kia,  it was the only new car I ever bought where  nothing was needed to be fixed under warrenty. Amazing what we put up with back then that now would set people to running in the streets with signs.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/hyundai-and-kia-recall-1-2-million-cars-for-engine-failures/

1.2 million recalls on Kia and Hyundai

[plymouthcranbrook]

33 minutes ago, JamesBulldogMiller55Buick said:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/hyundai-and-kia-recall-1-2-million-cars-for-engine-failures/

1.2 million recalls on Kia and Hyundai

Which goes to show, nobody's perfect, I was speaking of my own experiences of course. No issues on either of our two Kia Souls, or my son's 2017 Soul

[Buffalowed Bill]

1.2 million recalls on Kia and Hyundai

 

In the good old days their weren't many publicized recalls. Often a reoccurring problems were slipped through a dealerships back door at night, so problem would not impact sales of new cars.

[8E45E]

Since we've drifted 'across both ponds' on new-car quality, British Leyland was notorious for shoddy workmanship, but a lot of the blame must also go to their supplies, including Joe Lucas, Smith's etc.

 

Craig

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

1.2 million recalls on Kia and Hyundai

 

It has been an unending mystery to me how any car company was EVER able to market a car branded KIA to anyone with a military background.

 

[Mark Gregory]

According to Jay Leno  - The reason they brought out the KIA was so the Hyundai owners had something to laugh at . 

[capngrog]

      13 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

1.2 million recalls on Kia and Hyundai

 

It has been an unending mystery to me how any car company was EVER able to market a car branded KIA to anyone with a military background.

 

Buffalowed Bill,

 

Was the above sentence, quoted by GregLaR, edited from your post?  If it was, I don't understand, because ever since the KIA name was announced, I won't go near one, much less ride in one.  That name is definitely negative karma to any and all veterans, not to mention the loved ones of someone lost in combat.  Even though the term KIA could knock the scabs off of old wounds, it should still warrant an open discussion on this forum and this thread, which is dedicated to automotive foul ups, especially those from the 1970s.  I wonder why due diligence research was not done when the name KIA was first dreamed up.

 

Just my opinion,

Grog 

[MCHinson]

There is no sign of it being edited by anyone. I think that GregLaR simply typed his response inside the quoted text box rather than below it. 

[padgett]

Well we have a major car line named for a light bulb.

[Grimy]

15 minutes ago, padgett said:

Well we have a major car line named for a light bulb.

Both were named for the Zoroastrian god of light....

[8E45E]

9 hours ago, padgett said:

Well we have a major car line named for a light bulb.

What about Mazda?

 

'Mazda is the 'god of light'.  I have some nos GE pre-focused headlight bulbs from the 1930's with 'Mazda' depicted on the sleeve of them.

 

Craig

[Curti]

OK, I have no military background.  What is the problem with KIA ?