Over Restoration - BLING

[F&J]

8 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

My Uncle bought a new Mopar in those years, a Monaco as I remember. First time he tried to use the wipers he realized that they weren't attached to the posts but had simply been tossed into the well below the windshield.

 

These cars could be awful, some were OK, but many were not.  I guess we recall the bad ones, not the better ones. Very few people custom-ordered a car by that era, and the few that did,...the car often was full of defects like mismatched repainted doors or whatever, nothing fitting correctly...a huge disappointment for those who wanted their car to be special.

 

We had a lot of V8 cars/trucks that had chokes not set right, and choke pull-offs not working, and the choke-unloader not set to open at full throttle, and we had to reset these before delivery.  The truck drivers that brought the cars from the factory had a tough time in coldest days;  The car was loaded on the transport trailer on a warmer day, but trying to start the car on the trailer in zero days, they would start but flood over and not restart.

 

These were often unloaded in the lot before the dealer opened in the morning.  These cars were always sitting in the unloading area.  We would get the keys out of the drop-box, then park them in the normal area.  One guy went to move a 74 Charger that was parked crooked in an odd spot, and he came back in to say that the entire center of the dashboard was kicked in by a size 12 work shoe.  Everything was mashed, and it also would not start.  Popped the hood and the aircleaner cover was gone.  The guys found it way out back where the transport guy did a Frisbee with it.  Sure enough, flooded because the choke was messed up.  That car went to a body shop.

 

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[chistech]

Reading some posts it brings to mind back in 78' when my dad purchased a new K30 Chevy single wheel pickup. It came with a Chevy grille, tailgate, and rear chevy hubcaps. The front fenders were marked GMC 3500 and the dash board was marked Sierra or Grand Sierra, can't remember now. Steering wheel was Chevy also.

 

[Mark Huston]

In 1977 I was starting out life on my own and decided to buy my first new car.   At that time my family was into buying new Chrysler products and I had visited the local Chrysler Plymouth dealer and had settled on a new 1977 Plymouth Duster with the slant 6 engine.   My parents went with me to finalize the deal since it was my first new car purchase and they did not want me to be taken advantage of by an unscrupulous car dealer.  After my dad was introduced to the new car in question he walked around it and started pointing out to me all of the defects in the fit and finish of the car and even pointed out to me the wavy body panels.   Dad asked the salesman what happened to the car and how many accidents it was in and who did the p*** poor body work.     That killed the deal.  Instead of buying a new car I ended up purchasing a 1961 Oldsmobile Starfire convertible.   I had several years of fun with that car.  I wish I still had it.  

[C Carl]

I'm kind of wondering whether some of this might have been due to another aspect of the '70s . Sounds a bit like what would have happened if those long haired Hip's on the line were smoking more than just ciggies. ?  - Carl

[Bhigdog]

Look guys. Nostalgia for the good ole days aside, our "collector" cars from the 50's through the 70's were poorly designed and built and the big 3 couldn't care less. Where else were you going to get a car? They were slapped together with little care about engineering design, fit, or finish. The sheet metal had only enough primer on the backside to keep it from rusting until it was assembled, if that. Rocker panels, floors, and fenders had designs that assured dirt and water would collect and rot them through in only a few years.

Then came the "Japs" and competition reared it's head......................Bob

 

 

[F&J]

35 minutes ago, C Carl said:

I'm kind of wondering whether some of this might have been due to another aspect of the '70s . Sounds a bit like what would have happened if those long haired Hip's on the line were smoking more than just ciggies. ?  - Carl

 

Rewriting history due to animosity towards the then, younger generation?   That generation got us out of the Asian conflict, in case you forgot. They had the courage to stand up, as the Mainstream News-brainwashed elders kept sending sons to their deaths, whilst waving their flags.

 

Look at 70s videos of assembly lines to see average looking, old/young/male/female/white/black workers...not some Woodstock rock show.

 

The 70s were a time of continual strife: Auto Workers strikes, shutdowns, and/or workers hatred of the Company that blamed them for everything..

 

The poor quality of US autos during those 1970s years, was the final compilation to the inattentive, lazy Auto Corporations, who now then blamed their shrinking profits on the Labor Unions and the people assembling the cars.  Both sides were hugely at fault, stemming from the fat gravy years, where the Company did not need to stay on top of quality, design, or fuel economy, and workers Unions that ran the wages and benefits way, way up too far in good times...

 

Then both sides got a harsh wake up call from astounding sales of the top quality, low cost German and Japanese cars, while the Big 3 and Unions were not paying attention.

 

Take a Detroit/Toledo/Saginaw/Flint/etc tour on many YouTube videos, to see huge tracts of empty home lots now returning to actual forest-woodlands..  I see those vacant areas, and derelict abandoned homes, and think of all the generations of US Auto Workers that lived/loved/raised families/etc, and now all of the Auto-related cities are destroyed.  It's really hard to believe...... These were once thriving, wonderful places to live during the good times. (and please don't anyone solely blame ethnic differences on the outcome.  That was not the root problem of what went wrong)  What went wrong was a mix of everything, including timing, as well as local and higher-up politics, too

 

...all of this is Just My Opinion

 

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[C Carl]

At ease , well-informed F&J. I am 72 , meaning I was in my 20s and 30s in the '70s. I agree with your synopsis, and as always find your writings to be well informed , analytical , and firmly based in significant experience. Except for the fact that I have greatly enjoyed your response and am grateful for it , I would apologize for having provoked you. Not my intent. More a stab at humor than social commentary. Any inference drawn resulting in a negative value judgement is simply taking the above WAY too seriously. I am with you , brother. Relax. And again , thank you for ALL of your highly detailed , interesting , informative postings.  - Carl

 

P.S. : There is no room for mind alteration in the general workplace. Then , nor now.  - CC

[padgett]

Reminds me of one of the most added GTO items, the hood tach. Easy to tell if stock, if the hole was neatly cut out, it wasn't. Holes for manual transmission floor shifters were the same, if neatly done it was not factory. And then there are the drips in a Corvette hood (were hung vertically on the line and drips better go the right way), or the rough underside of a hood on a Cobra, or the... Why bother to repop defects ?

[Steve_Mack_CT]

16 hours ago, F&J said:

 

Take a Detroit/Toledo/Saginaw/Flint/etc tour on many YouTube videos, to see huge tracts of empty home lots now returning to actual forest-woodlands..  I see those vacant areas, and derelict abandoned homes, and think of all the generations of US Auto Workers that lived/loved/raised families/etc, and now all of the Auto-related cities are destroyed.  It's really hard to believe...... These were once thriving, wonderful places to live during the good times. (and please don't anyone solely blame ethnic differences on the outcome.  That was not the root problem of what went wrong)  What went wrong was a mix of everything, including timing, as well as local and higher-up politics, too

 

...all of this is Just My Opinion

 

.

 

 

 

 

Not to take this further off track but this is an interesting and I think sound observation.  I have read some good arguments that the rise of the Interstate system actually contributed to this as well, with regards to the demise of mid sized cities at least, as they became routinely bypassed by local and long distance travelers.  So yes, a compilation of factors, unfortunately hitting auto related cities pretty hard..

 

Back on task - the build quality woes also made me think of the stories of disgruntled workers adding a tuna sandwich or similar behind a door panel or under a seat.  Seems like an odd way to protest, but I wonder sometimes if those stories are myth or fact?

[CarlLaFong]

I remember when I was a kid and became interested in old cars. There was a pretty famous Model A Roadster owned by a guy named Red Grow.  It was supposed to be a brand new car, built from all NOS parts. My friend and I hopped on our bicycles and rode over to Burbank where it was on display. It was a beautiful car and the claims of it being all NOS were, probably, true. We did notice that the undercarriage looked as if it had been dipped in black plastic. Not a casting flaw, rough surface or sloppy weld anywhere. Even at 13 years old, we thought it looked out of place on a Model A.

[West Peterson]

One of my good friends was a high-level materials manager for Fisher Body in the 1950s to the 1990s, and beyond. He says that when there was a problem on the production line pertaining to the proper parts coming down to meet a specific car (per the build sheet) they just sent the car on its way down the line (they couldn't afford to stop the line... just dealt with the problem once the car was fully assembled). He says that some cars ended up with completely wrong-colored interiors, or accessories (again, per the build sheet). These cars were sold to factory employees if the discrepancy was too odd to be sent to the buyer.

 

I've heard several times of people having some sort of accessory installed on their car that they didn't order. The dealer would just tell the buyer if they didn't want to take delivery, a new car would be made for them. If it was something like a better radio, or air conditioning, or a console, I suspect that most people would have accepted the car, especially if the dealer didn't try to charge them for it.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Interesting piece of history, West.

Your friend could write an article of some sort

on his experiences, to preserve them for posterity.

[Curti]

That brings up an interesting point West.  I wonder when it became possible to custom order a car from the factory. I know the very high end custom body cars were special ordered . But Fords, Chevy's  etc. Of course I am always curious about Auburns.

[Restorer32]

We bought a '35 Auburn Phaeton in the flea market at Hershey in 1970. It had been "collected" in the 1950's. Included with the car were numerous NOS parts including 5 hubcaps. Invoice for the caps was on ACD stationary (Glen Pray?). They cost $1.57 each. Also included was a maybe 20 page printed catalog of NOS parts for sale, everything from blocks to bumpers.

[Restorer32]

stationery?

[Xander Wildeisen]

Maybe one of you guys can answer this question. We bought this 1956 Corvette years ago, and sold it. It was number 101, very low miles, loaded with all options, and had the MSO paper work from new. It had a bunch of carry over 1955 parts on the car. Very nice car. The story I got from the seller (The second owner), was that a few cars were produced with painted headlight rings from the factory. And that this was one of them.  Is there any truth to this?

[John_S_in_Penna]

49 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

...We bought this 1956 Corvette years ago, and sold it. It was number 101, very low miles, loaded with all options, and had the MSO paper work from new. It had a bunch of carry over 1955 parts on the car....

 

Xander, you and succeeding owners should keep it as original as possible!

Corvette experts might not know everything, and this car can help to inform them.

 

I've heard of other transitional cars, from other makes.

One of our region members has an original late-1953 Packard Caribbean with 1954 interior elements.

No one owning your Corvette should rely on "experts" and start taking off the leftover 1955 parts,

thinking they are incorrect. 

Edited January 12, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

Nothing will be changed on the car, I do think it is the real deal. And so does the new owner. the original paper work even stated the engine number on it. And we all no at that time engine numbers did not have anything to do with vin numbers. The seller said they wanted to give the headlights a frenched in look, but to change the fenders was to much work. So a few cars had the rings painted. I think it looks good. If I remember correct the dip stick was on the opposite side of the block. Maybe a early 265 thing?(it had a few things that others did not) I can dig out some pictures, it was a really neat car. The original floor carpets were in good shape, but the thin layer of backing material was dry rotted from age. So when you would drive the car with the cowl vent open, the fine dust from the bottom of the the carpet would fly around and get in your eyes, and it burned. the 265 duel fours had a great sound as you ran first out, before it shifted into second. They start to get drifty in the front at about 80 mph, Fun car, power windows, power top, hard top. I am no NCRS guy, but it was a cool car.

[Doug Novak]

I've always been concerned that the newer Wax Products from companies like Meguiar's and Mother's, adds a lot of High Gloss Shine to my car and over the years of polishing has possibly even tinted the original color.  It hasn't caused a Judging problem but people have questioned if it is the original color, which it is based on the factory information paint code plate and VIN. It has had one repaint which is most likely not the same type of paint the factory used, but it is an exact color matched to what was indicated. There are also some small remote areas such as in the bottom of the trunk lid where original paint is exposed, and although faded it does match. 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Doug Novak (see edit history)

[JACK M]

3 hours ago, Doug Novak said:

I've always been concerned that the newer Wax Products from companies like Meguiar's and Mother's, adds a lot of High Gloss Shine to my car and over the years of polishing has possibly even tinted the original color.  It hasn't caused a Judging problem but people have questioned if it is the original color, which it is based on the factory information paint code plate and VIN. It has had one repaint which is most likely not the same type of paint the factory used, but it is an exact color matched to what was indicated. There are also some small remote areas such as in the bottom of the trunk lid where original paint is exposed, and although faded it does match. 

 

There are waxes now that are indeed tinted.

Mt neighbor body and paint guy that gave me a bottle of wax that was black. I polished up this maroon car with it per his suggestion and it looks great.

[Doug Novak]

49 minutes ago, JACK M said:

 

There are waxes now that are indeed tinted.

Mt neighbor body and paint guy that gave me a bottle of wax that was black. I polished up this maroon car with it per his suggestion and it looks great.

 

That's interesting Jack, never saw Black Wax? Wonder if it was for Waxing Black Cars, Black Trim or Vinyl Tops. If it worked for you and you like it, doesn't matter.  

 

Here's my '68 AMC AMX which  is painted Calcutta Russet. When bright sunlight is on it the color turns lighter with a little Brownish tint to it, but in indirect Sunlight it has more of a Burgundy color which I actually like best. I wax it twice a year and never wash it. It's garaged and kept clean with a California Duster and Meguair's Spray on Detailer. 

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Doug Novak (see edit history)

[jpage]

I believe that the colored waxes were developed to fill in small defects in the paint on darker colors that the regular wax usually highlighted when dry.  I had a black pickup and after waxing it you could pick out every chip or scratch on it; wish they had the colored waxes in the 70's! But what's all this have to do with over restoration? On the other hand, under restoration can be just as bad. There are those "restorers" who will expend a ton of money on a vehicle, only to put on pitted and tarnished trim, reuse bad glass, some weird paint scheme, forget about the engine compartment totally or some other"cost saving" thing and call it a restoration!

 

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by jpage (see edit history)

[CarlLaFong]

^^^^^Exactly!! I look at cars on eBay all the time, virtual window shopping. I never fail to find a nice looking car, usually a Model T that the "restorer" felt it needed a red, crushed velvet interior to jazz it up a bit. They're always priced at what a correct car would be worth. At the replacement cost of a proper interior, it would have been better if he had rodded it

[ejboyd5]

Re 1956 Corvette Headlight Rings:  http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c1-and-c2-corvettes/3912519-56-headlight-trim-rings.html

[8E45E]

On ‎10‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 6:44 AM, Curti said:

 

I can only imagine the horrors of a custom bodied car. The guy on the left side didn't know what the guy on the right was doing.  

Auburn speedsters are a custom bodied car from the factory. The fenders were made individually to fit the car. I have original fenders that are lap welded on one side and butt welded on the other. 

That would also apply to all the Italian coachbuilders.  In fact, GM made it perfectly clear to try and fix and reuse a dented body panel on a 1959-60 Eldorado Brougham before ordering in a brand new replacement as chances are it would not fit!

 From the Cadillac Database website: https://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/static/CDB/Dbas_txt/Brg10a.htm

 

 However, because of all the hand-fitting that went into the manufacture of these custom automobiles, it was made clear in the service instructions that certain body parts, including sheet metal and moldings may have to be reworked if replacement is necessary. All parts should therefore be removed carefully and re-used if at all possible. Any new part must be matched against the removed part to make certain that it is identical in shape and size before installation is attempted (!)

 

Craig

[Guest Skyking]

On 1/12/2017 at 6:08 AM, West Peterson said:

One of my good friends was a high-level materials manager for Fisher Body in the 1950s to the 1990s, and beyond. He says that when there was a problem on the production line pertaining to the proper parts coming down to meet a specific car (per the build sheet) they just sent the car on its way down the line (they couldn't afford to stop the line... just dealt with the problem once the car was fully assembled). He says that some cars ended up with completely wrong-colored interiors, or accessories (again, per the build sheet). These cars were sold to factory employees if the discrepancy was too odd to be sent to the buyer.

 

I've heard several times of people having some sort of accessory installed on their car that they didn't order. The dealer would just tell the buyer if they didn't want to take delivery, a new car would be made for them. If it was something like a better radio, or air conditioning, or a console, I suspect that most people would have accepted the car, especially if the dealer didn't try to charge them for it.

 

I wonder how many of these cars were judged wrong on the field?

[Curti]

I wonder how many of these cars were judged wrong on the field?

 

I wouldn't imagine not too many, unless the judges are experts at decoding vintags, and have the time to do it.  Many options are dealer installed.  What the dealer didn't do, is chrome plate parts or otherwise enhance them.

When judging Auburns, it is amazing how many cars have frames painted body color that were New York auto Show cars.   Cars with supercharged pipes with out a supercharger. The claim is the dealer did that.  

[Ed Luddy]

On 1/6/2017 at 5:41 PM, ejboyd5 said:

It doesn't look as if they've yet managed to get rid of the gold chains from around the owner's necks.

Those guys are the biggest reason I've only ever taken one of my Corvette's to a car show only once. It was a 1963 coupe I bought from the original owners family that was in very nice original condition. After listening to several Corvette "guru's" I left before the show was over and the trophy's handed out. Funniest part of that nitpicking experience is that the same dweeb's all tried to buy the car from me after they ran it down verbally.

 Never again for me.

[8E45E]

On ‎19‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 7:28 AM, Curti said:

I wonder how many of these cars were judged wrong on the field?

 

I wouldn't imagine not too many, unless the judges are experts at decoding vintags, and have the time to do it.  Many options are dealer installed.  What the dealer didn't do, is chrome plate parts or otherwise enhance them.

When judging Auburns, it is amazing how many cars have frames painted body color that were New York auto Show cars.   Cars with supercharged pipes with out a supercharger. The claim is the dealer did that.  

In many instances, a lot of optional equipment was NOT installed on the assembly line, despite being 'factory ordered'.  Often, they were shipped loose inside the trunk to be installed by the dealer. 

 

I hear ya on more Auburn frames being painted than originally left the factory.  Isn't it that way with 1970/71 E & B-body Mopars when it comes to the optional Hi-Impact colors??

 

Craig

[viv w]

In Zimbabwe, we used to have an annual concourse show and it caused lots of bitterness. It was decided to stop this kind of judging and just appreciate the vehicles for what they are.

We now have a monthly bonnets up meeting, where owners meet, look at each others cars and have a social get together. The standard of restorations are constantly improving and the guys try hard to bring out clean cars.

 In the past I recall a farmer bringing his Model A into town during the rainy season for a long distance run, he had driven 10 miles of mud road and arrived at the start with a very muddy looking car and he was asked to open the hood for concourse judging. He just laughed the judges off, but he MADE the effort to attend and that is what classic motoring is all about.

 We also had a young guy bring out his newly restored Morris Minor, which he proudly showed off. One of the elders criticised it for having some wrong parts, the guy went away and has never returned. The lesson from this, is don't criticise another guys car for being wrong, praise him for the work that has been done and offer constructive advice. If this youngster had been offered correct parts by the elder he probably would have returned. Unfortunately he is another enthusiast lost to the hobby.

 As Curt will know, I attended the ACD festival in 2000 when I owned 4 Auburn 653/4 cars. I was asked to judge but declined, as I was more interested in looking at the cars to see what was right and wrong. While I was looking at an original 654 Cabrio the judges came and I heard them say the bumpers are wrong. They did not know the 6 cyl and 8 cyl cars are different. There were several things these guys did not know that I pointed out and in turn I learned a lot from Curt and others about my cars. I did not know chrome wire wheels were offered as an option by Auburn. I also saw this original cabrio had brown painted wiper motors, where almost ALL the restored cars had chrome ones. When I did my research in the parts books, the 8cyl and 6cyl Auburn wiper motors have different part numbers, perhaps the reason why the car on show had painted ones?

 I hear what Curt is asking, cars are over restored with lots of bling and they should be penalised in judging. I just watched the 2016 Nairobi Kenya concourse and was appauled to see an all white Model A sedan win the event. The body, wheels and fenders were all white and I could have torn the car apart for being incorrect, but it was shiny bright and won.

 Also the majority of Model A's today have colored wheels. They should be black, but how often do you see a Ford A with black wheels these days.

 I believe in trying to restore a car back as near to original as possible, in the interests of keeping the car historically correct, but as has often been said, a car is only original once and anything that is restored is never quite the same as it left the factory, no matter how hard we try.

 My advice, if a car is original, running and presentable, preserve it as it is. If you restore a car, study the parts books and get hold of the factory modification bulletins, they are an invaluable source of knowledge,

 Finally enjoy your cars by driving them, that is what they were built for.

 Regards

Viv.

[Curti]

Well said Viv , I agree with you on all points !! The heart top and bowl on six cylinder open car and coupe wiper motors are black the heart cover is chrome. None were brown. 8 cylinder's were chrome.   They came from Trico that way.  

[jrbartlett]

My experience on having a freshly restored '35 super-charged Auburn judged at the ACD Meet 20 years ago -- I placed second to a non-supercharged car that had the external pipes added "by the dealer," that wasn't restored nearly as well as mine and badly needed a polish job. I was dinged for several minor non-original details -- like visible snaps on the top. The problem was, when I restored my car in the mid-90's, I had contacted the museum for information on just such details, and they sent photos of a car on the museum floor that I copied in doing my car. There was originality list like there is now. Also, I've since come to know a couple of the judges, and learned that they have never restored a car themselves. So sometimes when there's hyper-focus on original-type nuts and bolts that are no longer obtainable, there's under-focus on the overall quality of the paint, upholstery and chrome by judges who may not know how hard it is to get that stuff right. I've not bothered to have the Auburn judged there again. By the way, in the photo, yes,the spotlight is wrong -- but it was on the car when I got it so I reinstalled it after restoration. That said, there's unbelievably high quality restorations being done these days that I would have to agree are over-restorations.          

[39BuickEight]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 6:08 AM, West Peterson said:

One of my good friends was a high-level materials manager for Fisher Body in the 1950s to the 1990s, and beyond. He says that when there was a problem on the production line pertaining to the proper parts coming down to meet a specific car (per the build sheet) they just sent the car on its way down the line (they couldn't afford to stop the line... just dealt with the problem once the car was fully assembled). He says that some cars ended up with completely wrong-colored interiors, or accessories (again, per the build sheet). These cars were sold to factory employees if the discrepancy was too odd to be sent to the buyer.

 

I've heard several times of people having some sort of accessory installed on their car that they didn't order. The dealer would just tell the buyer if they didn't want to take delivery, a new car would be made for them. If it was something like a better radio, or air conditioning, or a console, I suspect that most people would have accepted the car, especially if the dealer didn't try to charge them for it.

 

Not a classic (yet), but I ordered a 2003 Silverado in 2002.  It came with heated seat buttons on the doors (the door panels had to be cut, or otherwise altered to put them in, they are different than "regular" door panels).  The problem, it didn't have heated seats.  It had standard cloth seats.  The indicator lights on the buttons even lit up.  Alas there were no actual heaters in the seats.  I thought it was funny, and didn't ask for it to be changed.

 

I imagine they didn't have the correct door panel ready at the time, so they stuck that one in, and since they couldn't just leave a hole in them, they stuck the switches in.

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, jrbartlett said:

My experience on having a freshly restored '35 super-charged Auburn judged at the ACD Meet 20 years ago -- I placed second to a non-supercharged car that had the external pipes added "by the dealer," that wasn't restored nearly as well as mine and badly needed a polish job. I was dinged for several minor non-original details -- like visible snaps on the top. The problem was, when I restored my car in the mid-90's, I had contacted the museum for information on just such details, and they sent photos of a car on the museum floor that I copied in doing my car. There was originality list like there is now. Also, I've since come to know a couple of the judges, and learned that they have never restored a car themselves. So sometimes when there's hyper-focus on original-type nuts and bolts that are no longer obtainable, there's under-focus on the overall quality of the paint, upholstery and chrome by judges who may not know how hard it is to get that stuff right. I've not bothered to have the Auburn judged there again. By the way, in the photo, yes,the spotlight is wrong -- but it was on the car when I got it so I reinstalled it after restoration. That said, there's unbelievably high quality restorations being done these days that I would have to agree are over-restorations.          

That's exactly the kind of 25 year old car that got me into this hobby when I was a kid.

Bernie

[Restorer32]

We worked on a 1949 Bentley James Young Sedanca Coupe. The owner actually found a few men who had worked for James Young when his car was built. He was told that Bentley upholsterers worked in pairs, one right handed and one left handed. If you have ever installed a headliner you will understand how nice this arrangement would be.

[viv w]

James, your Auburn is stunning and a credit to your workmanship. You may not have won all those years ago, but to most old car enthusiasts your car is a winner. I hope you still drive and show this car, it's too nice to hide it away.

Viv.