Obtaining a title for barn find

[crazycars]

How can I go about getting a title for a recent barn find 1935 Dodge?  The seller has no paperwork and the car is located in Illinois. I am in RI which now demands a title for all out-of-state cars, no matter what the age. (Real friendly state!). I know that the Vermont registration method was recently closed down and can no longer be used.  All suggestions greatly appreciated

[Trulyvintage]

Unless the Seller can convey

legal ownership with a current 

valid Illinois title in their name

you are buying/have bought

a parts vehicle.

 

Jim

[Harold]

I'd contact the Illinois Department of Motor Vehicles and see what their procedure is.  Some states are easier to deal with than others and making a nice impression on the person assisting you can work wonders.   Granted, that's more difficult from several states away, but worth a try.  

[victorialynn2]

Ask the DMV about the bonded title process. https://www.ilsos.gov/publications/pdf_publications/rtopr26.pdf

[RansomEli]

Each state has a different procedure for handling cars without titles. You need to find an Illinois attorney or title expert who can give you precise advice on your specific situation. 

 

This may sound harsh, but the Illinois DMV doesn't care about your problem. You'll have to pay someone to help solve getting a title in Illinois. Or maybe tell you can't get a title from Illinois.

[ABear]

While it is true that each state has there own way of handling lost titles, the reality is that the seller in Illinois would most likely and ultimately have to be the one to initiate the lost title process in Illinois. They would have to find a way to show proof of ownership to replace the title in there own state.

 

The buyer since they are not a resident of Illinois most likely would not be able to start that process even with paying a Lawyer.

 

Many states have cracked down on title washing which is the reason why buying without a title can result in a large useless paperweight.

 

I bought a car from outside my home state, before buying I checked with my state DMV to find out exactly what my state required. Once I had the requirements, I relayed that info to the seller, the seller had to follow to the T what my state required. The state I bought it from only required a simple owner signature on the back of the title which my state would reject. Instead, the seller had to find a Notary, and sign the title in front of the Notary and have the Notary add their seal to the title..

[Terry Bond]

Oh nooo, not another "how you get a title" thread!!!

Simple step one - learn and understand the law and rules for YOUR state. Don't pay any attention to what someone in Texas, NY, AZ, or anywhere else may have done to try and get one.  

Terry

[TTR]

2 hours ago, Trulyvintage said:

Unless the Seller can convey

legal ownership with a current 

valid Illinois title in their name

you are buying/have bought

a parts vehicle.

 

Jim

Or possibly a stolen vehicle. 
If the seller doesn’t have a proof of legal ownership, he doesn’t have a legal right to sell it either.

Edited March 9 by TTR (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

No disrespect TTR, but you are making a very general statement. I deal with race cars now and then. Not for road use but cars none the less. Virtually no one has a Title for a race car. But people buy and sell them all the time. 100 % legal. What possibly could be the legal distinction between a race car and a road car ?  Every now and then I run across a race car with a Title and that is a great thing. It opens up a lot of possibilities regarding use. But probably less than 1 % of the race cars I encounter. If any race car at all  has a Title there has to be a way to get a Title for any car. Just a matter of jumping through the correct hoops.

[ABear]

11 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

No disrespect TTR, but you are making a very general statement. I deal with race cars now and then. Not for road use but cars none the less. Virtually no one has a Title for a race car. But people buy and sell them all the time. 100 % legal. What possibly could be the legal distinction between a race car and a road car ?  Every now and then I run across a race car with a Title and that is a great thing. It opens up a lot of possibilities regarding use. But probably less than 1 % of the race cars I encounter. If any race car at all  has a Title there has to be a way to get a Title for any car. Just a matter of jumping through the correct hoops.

Good point.

 

However, "race cars" are generally not driven on public roads and therefore not "tracked" or "traced" by most states DMV.

 

The key difference is "Off Road" IE "RACE" car which is not driven on public roads and "on road" cars which are allowed to be driven on public roads.

 

Generally, States DMVs do not care or worry about what is not driven on public roads so those vehicle titling would be completely optional.

 

Titles help the States DMVs to identify and track/trace legal ownership and that leads to the States DMVs being able to issue a title of ownership in that state and only once that title of ownership has been issued in that States DMV system can the new owner apply for and get registration and plate which allows the owner to legally drive the vehicle on public roads. In the process, the States collect fees for sales tax collection, titleing, registration and plates.

 

Not saying a titleless vehicle can't be titled, but one must find a way of providing acceptable proof of ownership documentation and that can be a slow and costly process.

 

Some states may provide a "Custom" build option but then that will wipe out the original serial number, brand name and model yr and you will be issued a title with custom manufactured and a present day yr and all new modern VIN.. Even that process may require documentation proof of cost and where you got the materials to build it.

 

I suspect most if not all members of this forum really want to be able to drive their "purchase" on public roads so getting a good and correct title up front whether in state or out of state just makes the entire process go faster, smoother and less expensive.

[old car fan]

4 hours ago, Trulyvintage said:

Unless the Seller can convey

legal ownership with a current 

valid Illinois title in their name

you are buying/have bought

a parts vehicle.

 

Jim

Wrong,been there ,done .anything can be done. It isn't cheap in Ohio. But can be done. So the parts car comments  is BS.Take your time, learn the laws.

[victorialynn2]

I literally posted Illinois’ bonded title process above. I’ve obtained titles for cars before. Depends on the state’s laws, what documentation you have, a vin inspection to prove it’s not stolen, and a bit of luck and persistence. 

[JamesR]

The bonded title process mentioned above is the only realistic way I know of to get a non-titled car titled, at least where I'm at. There is some risk involved, though, and as I recall there's a fair bit of time that has to elapse before legitimate ownership is certified. Less stringent states might have a wider range of options.

 

Bonded tiles should be viewed as a viable option only if you've already purchased the vehicle, i.e., as a last resort.  Don't knowingly buy an untitled car thinking you'll get a title through the bonding process. If you've already bought the car, this can be a learning lesson for you going forward.

Edited March 9 by JamesR (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

Most States have a bonded title option. It is used to insure the car is legit with no liens and such. Your DMV benefits, (initial & anual fees), by having your car titled, and will help if it can, provided you get a good person at the counter.  

Edited March 9 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[Fordy]

Can someone explain to a hick living down under this whole title thing? I can buy a car from anywhere without any documentation and get it registered in my name by presenting it for an "identity check" where the numbers are run on a national database for its status as "stolen" or whatever. I would have thought you US guys would have similar.

Steve

[victorialynn2]

26 minutes ago, JamesR said:

The bonded title process mentioned above is the only realistic way I know of to get a non-titled car titled, at least where I'm at. There is some risk involved, though, and as I recall there's a fair bit of time that has to elapse before legitimate ownership is certified. Less stringent states might have a wider range of options.

 

Bonded tiles should be viewed as a viable option only if you've already purchased the vehicle, i.e., as a last resort.  Don't knowingly buy an untitled car thinking you'll get a title through the bonding process. If you've already bought the car, this can be a learning lesson for you going forward.

Agree 💯

[victorialynn2]

6 minutes ago, Fordy said:

Can someone explain to a hick living down under this whole title thing? I can buy a car from anywhere without any documentation and get it registered in my name by presenting it for an "identity check" where the numbers are run on a national database for its status as "stolen" or whatever. I would have thought you US guys would have similar.

Steve

If you buy a car with no title in the US, there is no guarantee you can get it titled. It’s best not to buy cars without title, but if you already did, there is a possibility you may be able to title it. 

[TerryB]

We have 50 states and the US constitution gives jurisdiction to each state to make the rules governing the process of determining how to record ownership and transfer ownership of vehicles in the state. There is a National database for stolen vehicles but that is only part of the process. To paraphrase an old Paul Simon song, “ there must be 50 ways to get a title”.

[mrspeedyt]

maybe 15 years ago I did the bonded title thing in Arizona. I did have a bill of sale that was notarized when I bought a non running 1952 Jeep CJ 3A in Texas. at that time I paid $75 for a bond in Arizona. I sold the Jeep a few years later with no problem with the bonded title. and it kept the original Vin.

[Trulyvintage]

1 hour ago, old car fan said:

Wrong,been there ,done .anything can be done. It isn't cheap in Ohio. But can be done. So the parts car comments  is BS.Take your time, learn the laws.

The OP does not state whether

he is thinking of buying the vehicle 

or has bought it.

 

The OP states he lives in

Rhode Island which has new

vehicle title laws that went

into effect March 1st, 2024:

 

@ https://dmv.ri.gov/registrations-plates-titles/titles

 

 

Jim

[61polara]

If a seller says "here is a bill of sale, its easy to get a title with this", then tell them to get a title and you will close the deal.  That's when you hear "I don't have the time to do that."  Offer a parts car price.  If that is rejected, run and run fast.  In many states, it's illegal to sell a car without a title.  If this is one, price it as a parts car and buying parts only.

[1912Staver]

4 hours ago, Fordy said:

Can someone explain to a hick living down under this whole title thing? I can buy a car from anywhere without any documentation and get it registered in my name by presenting it for an "identity check" where the numbers are run on a national database for its status as "stolen" or whatever. I would have thought you US guys would have similar.

Steve

I am a stones throw from Washington State here in Canada and I find the whole Title thing weird. { Canada does not use Titles, thank goodness  } Even stranger is that you can { in some places at least } get a cash loan against your Title . The loan company takes possession of the Title { just a little slip of paper } and you keep driving your car. When you pay off the loan you get the Title back. I guess there must must also be some sort of registration document that you can produce if you are pulled over. 

Most States use Titles , but a few don't, and several don't use them on older cars. All very odd. As far as I know no state used them in the very early days. So no doubt there are early cars that have never had a Title. No one has ever been able to say when Titles first came into use.  I expect there are actually a lot of early cars without Titles, but I don't really know. 

Edited March 10 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Mark Gregush]

"registration document that you can produce if you are pulled over" Title is not carried in the car. You get a new registration slip each time you renew your plates that is kept in the car. Title proves you own the car and can legally sell it. Registration just shows license on car is current. Registration along with proof of insurance and drivers license is what you show the cops when you get pulled over.  The only thing that needs to be updated on the title is your address if you move. (For Oregon anyway)

[1912Staver]

Really ! The Title is not even kept in the car ? Now that is even stranger than I thought. No wonder they seem to get lost frequently. At least here in B.C. if you loose your paperwork it is 5 minutes and $20 document replacement fee at your insurance agents office.

[TTR]

6 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

No disrespect TTR, but you are making a very general statement. I deal with race cars now and then. Not for road use but cars none the less. Virtually no one has a Title for a race car. But people buy and sell them all the time. 100 % legal. What possibly could be the legal distinction between a race car and a road car ?  Every now and then I run across a race car with a Title and that is a great thing. It opens up a lot of possibilities regarding use. But probably less than 1 % of the race cars I encounter. If any race car at all  has a Title there has to be a way to get a Title for any car. Just a matter of jumping through the correct hoops.

Perhaps I misunderstood, but thought OP was looking to buy a vehicle for which the seller apparently has no paperwork & perhaps not even have a legal ownership of or right to sell, but which the OP could get registered/titled in his home state.
He didn’t seem to indicate anything about it being a “race car” or him having a specific desire to buy it for such purpose, hence my reply.

 

P.S. I have bough & sold over a thousand motor vehicles (& arranged international transportations for most) around the globe in past 4+ decades, so I believe I have some idea what type of paperwork might be required for legitimate transactions in various parts of the .world by various respective government agencies.

 

P.P.S. I’m also aware of instance in which a vintage car with long list of “legal”(?) ownership changes/transfers on two continents was confiscated by (US) federal authorities due to it having been reported stolen 40 years earlier in California.
Perhaps the first proof of ownership or Title (after the theft) was obtained by using some roundabout way and registering it some State with not so strict rules ?

Edited March 10 by TTR (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Understood, I was just responding to your mention of needing a Title to sell a car. A race car is a car .But I suppose I am just being pedantic.  Up until several years ago when the need for a Vehicle to get export approval from U.S. customs became law I bought several U.S. road vehicles ; all reasonably early cars that were restoration projects,  and brought them home to Canada. None of them had Titles { old enough that I doubt any of them would have ever had Titles } and as far as I am aware there was no need for one at the time. Of course that is no longer the case with regards to export. 

 I frequently find the Title problem a big problem. In order to buy a parts car or restoration project these days there has to be a Title, which is almost never present. Other than race cars {built from day one as race cars ; not race converted production road cars, which can be legally exported on a bill of sale } I have not bought a U.S. car for about 10 years now. Several I would have bought if things were still according to the old rules. For example I have been looking for a reasonably rust free Bug Eye Sprite body shell for some time now. { I already have two total rust bucket Sprites plus an absolute mountain of Sprite / MG Midget parts here in Canada, but no decent body shell } I found a pretty decent X SCCA race car Sprite , taken completely apart  ,a couple of years ago at a very reasonable price in Eastern Washington. But of course the paperwork was long, long gone. Seller told me that as far as he knew it had been a race car since the mid 1960's , had passed through several owners as a race car in the Pacific North West . Other than a log book no other paperwork. Perfect for my purpose, but no legal way to export.

Edited March 10 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[victorialynn2]

6 hours ago, Trulyvintage said:

The OP does not state whether

he is thinking of buying the vehicle 

or has bought it.

 

The OP states he lives in

Rhode Island which has new

vehicle title laws that went

into effect March 1st, 2024:

 

@ https://dmv.ri.gov/registrations-plates-titles/titles

 

 

Jim

Correct, but the seller could apply in Illinois before he sells the car. 
 

Or apply in RI for a bonded title as a last resort to see if he can get it titled, if he already bought it. 

Edited March 10 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[56Chief]

The bond you most likely require is called a "lost title bond".  I am a State Farm Agent in Michigan and my office writes them on a regular basis.  There is an application which your bond agent will fill out, there is the actual bond which is state specific that the DMV will provide to you, then your agent will print a power of attorney, which is required to show the agent is registered to legally issue the bond.  They are issued "in office" and for my state, through my provider, most are 100.00.  as the value of the car increases, the bond cost will also.  A gold seal is placed on the actual bond.  In the case of Michigan, the form is called TR121.  This is the bond process that takes 15 minutes to complete.  Obviously, there are many other requirements that your state's DMV may have you follow.  I hope this information helps:)

[TAKerry]

Bottom line, the OP should contact the state he is buying the car from and inquire as to their process. Then he can forward info to the seller. I would bet the seller needs to initiate the process. 

 

As to the 'outsiders' that dont understand having a car title. It is a legal document that proves ownership of the vehicle. I keep mine in a locked fireproof safe. One does not carry it with their car. There is a separate vehicle registration that stays with the car proving legal street use. The TITLE is needed in order to obtain the registration. Unfortunately all of the states are not on board with the title process and there is not a universal US rule. My state of MD requires a title for all motor (and some non motor) vehicles, regardless of age. I have titles for trailers w/road tags, titles for my street driven motorcycles, titles for antique motorcycles that will never be driven on the street. I have a title for a 50cc dirt bike and as well as one for my all terrain telescoping forklift. When a vehicle is sold the seller signs the title over to the buyer. MD also has a 2 part title. IF the vehicle has a lien then the lien holder will get one part and the person with the vehicle will get the other half marked that there is a lien. Once the vehicle is paid off the lien holder will release their half thus creating a free and clear title in the vehicle owners name. 

[1912Staver]

Thanks for the explanation Kerry. Interesting that you have a title for the forklift. I assume that would be quite a new machine and the Title was issued by the selling dealer. What about the case of a similar machine say from the 1960's . I doubt : but knowing nothing about your State stand to be corrected, that even if Titles are now issued for off road equipment there was probably a point in time they were not. Could a forklift from the 1960's somehow have a Title issued if that is needed to prove ownership ?

 Here in Western Canada I have never heard of any sort of documentation for older construction equipment { or for that matter reasonably new construction equipment } I guess in some instances a person might still have a sales receipt from when the piece of equipment was bought new, but this would be quite rare around here. Generally if you buy something like that around here you just pay for it and load it up. No paper trail.

 

 

i commend you for your diligence in the safe keeping of all your titles. If only everyone was so careful things would not be in the state they seem often to be in. 

 

Edited March 10 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Interesting. Here in PA a few years back i bought a new $50,000 tractor from a dealer. It came with no title. I traded in a tractor at that time, dealer didn,t ask for a title......bob

 

 

[trimacar]

Tractors are usually exempt from title and registration requirements, even with limited road use.

 

”Farm use” trucks must be titled.

 

Regulations may vary state to state, of course.

[31plymouth]

Question about NY--NY did not issue titles before 1973.  For cars before 1973 ,transfer is done with a signature on the back of the registration.

What happens if someone from a state that requires an actual title wants to buy a car from NY if a title doesn't exist?

 

 

[Bhigdog]

I bought several cars from Mass with only a notorized bill of sale that PA recognized and issued a title upon payment of PA sales tax. My impressikn was PA is aware of every states title laws and accomodates accordingly.... bob

 

Edited March 10 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

No idea on older equipment. I would guess a bill of sale is just fine because there is no idea at all that it will be registered for road use. I do know that all of the new equipment we bought (back hoes, skid steers etc.)  had titles. 

[Paul Dobbin]

50 States with 50 different sets of rules.   A title is a must in most of the 50.   Find out the rules in YOUR state,  BEFORE you buy

something without a title.

[Harold]

2 hours ago, 31plymouth said:

Question about NY--NY did not issue titles before 1973.  For cars before 1973 ,transfer is done with a signature on the back of the registration.

What happens if someone from a state that requires an actual title wants to buy a car from NY if a title doesn't exist?

 

 

Years ago, I was told by NY DMV that they would issue a title for a pre-1973 vehicle if requested.  You'd have to pay the titling fee and do whatever other paperwork that was required.  A phone call to the Title Bureau in Albany should verify whether they still do this.

[Paul Dobbin]

That's why I said," Find the rules in Your State" BEFORE  you buy.   Each state may have exceptions

[Fordy]

Wow. Talk about a complicated system with different requirements across all the states. Sitting on the outside it makes me wonder when you will need a "title" so prove you can legitimately sell a chocolate bar to someone and you didn't just nick it off some kid down the street.

It is obviously working on the assumption that if you can not prove legal ownership then you must have stolen it.

Steve

[Terry Bond]

3 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

I hope he has. I know I have benefited as others likely have. Don't you agree that's the forum's raison d'etre?

 

The true mark of a successful forum is to be both informative AND entertaining. I'm pleased to hear I am doing my part...................Bob

I even learned something about bonded titles in Rhode island.