Obtaining a title for barn find

[ABear]

26 minutes ago, Fordy said:

Wow. Talk about a complicated system with different requirements across all the states. Sitting on the outside it makes me wonder when you will need a "title" so prove you can legitimately sell a chocolate bar to someone and you didn't just nick it off some kid down the street.

It is obviously working on the assumption that if you can not prove legal ownership then you must have stolen it.

Steve

Can seem complicated, but reality is it isn't.

 

A title simply establishes a chain of custody and legal ownership. It is a legal document which states vehicle maker, VIN, yr, owners name and address.

 

That title then can be taken to any of the States DMV to register that vehicle in the state you or next owner live in if you sell it live in if one moves, sells.

 

The problem and complications start with the fact that each of the States DMVs each have their own rules that need to be followed in order to "register" the vehicle with the State you live in (IE Where your home is located or known as your Domicile state) if you want to drive the vehicle on public (paved and non paved) roads which are maintained by that States department of transportation.

 

If you have no cares about driving that vehicle on public roads (IE "off road, or off street use), then no need to worry about getting a title (although this could bite you if the vehicle you bought was was stolen and you are found to have possession of a stolen vehicle).

 

True story, a brother of mine lives in a State next to mine, sold a vehicle he owned in his state, new owner in same state never transferred the title out of my brothers name.. 6 months after my brother sold it, he was contacted by the State police to pick up his wrecked abandoned vehicle.. My brother had to "prove" he no longer owned it ,otherwise would have issued ticket and towing on a abandoned car.

 

Registering with the States DMV typically in most States must be done yearly (some offer multi year). Registering is tied to the vehicles VIN, the owner and the license plate which you have to buy from that state. All of this goes right back to having a good, valid clean title to start with.

 

Some States are pretty lax on the title but due to potential of stolen vehicles changing hands, most States have cracked down on less than stellar ways to creatively make up a new title.

[Bhigdog]

6 minutes ago, Terry Bond said:

I even learned something about bonded titles in Rhode island.

As did I.

So the destination was worth the journey.

I'm pleased to hear that..............Bob

[Bryan G]

Perhaps helpful to those outside looking in: consider a title as the equivalent to the deed to a property. Most real estate is worth more than most cars, but of course I could show you some parcels that wouldn't sell for the cost of a wrecked Daewoo. 

 

If you lose a title, you can typically get a new copy very easily from the DMV. Just some paperwork and a small fee. But, if you aren't the guy on the title? It ain't your car, is it? You can try selling the Brooklyn Bridge, too. "Here's the bill of sale, no problem to get it squared away down to the clerk's office. Nice doin' business with you!"

 

I passed on the last missing-title car I stumbled upon. I'm sure, with enough trouble, it could be done. But how much effort would you put into a 63 Lark sedan with a stuck engine and tired paint?

[1912Staver]

Funny enough the one place we use Titles here in British Columbia is for property. But the owner never sees them. They stay forever in the Land Title government office. When you buy a place here your Lawyer pays the sellers Lawyer for the property. The sellers Lawyer then instructs the Land Title Office to change the name on the Title to you, the new owner.

 No such thing as a deed here, just the Title gathering dust in a filing cabinet somewhere in a government office.

[ABear]

11 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Funny enough the one place we use Titles here in British Columbia is for property. But the owner never sees them. They stay forever in the Land Title government office. When you buy a place here your Lawyer pays the sellers Lawyer for the property. The sellers Lawyer then instructs the Land Title Office to change the name on the Title to you, the new owner.

 No such thing as a deed here, just the Title gathering dust in a filing cabinet somewhere in a government office.

Kind of interesting to hear about how things are handled in different places.

 

A Vehicle Title in the States is a lot like having a deed or title for land (acreage) and buildings basically a legal document which spells out who owns it and what is owned and where it is owned.

 

How that vehicle title is handled varies a lot between each State and that is what causes a lot of problems when the Title is lost or missing or improperly handled when item is sold or handed off to next owner.

 

In the context of "barn finds", many old cars when deemed too old or to bad of shape to drive or fix often are left to sit somewhere in a field or in a garage or barn. If the Owner passes away and the title wasn't found to have it properly handled by the Estate Executor or the Estate Executor sells or disperses the vehicle to next of kin with the original owners name because they didn't feel like getting it done at the time. Doesn't help that some States just give a "nod and wink" by just allowing one to "sign over" the title on the backside which may not be legal in a different State.

 

I bought a car out of my State mainly for parts, but I still went through with making sure it had a clear, clean title (no liens or loans against the vehicle and the title was in the persons name that I was buying from). I carried the title that was properly signed over to me for my State and Bill Of Sale with me while trailering it home (in case I got pulled over by Police) to prove I was now the owner. Once Home, I then went through the process at my States DMV  to have my State Issue a new corrected title in my name. Have not registered for on road use but once it is finished being a parts car, I can sell it to a scrap yard legally and they will have the title scrapped by the DMV. Basically a "cradle to grave" system when followed properly.

 

Should note, most (if not all) States, you don't need to carry the Title with the vehicle, when you register the vehicle for on the road use, you get a smaller registration card, that card is what you carry with you and it acts as proof that you own it and is usable for on the road use. The Title you can keep at home (lock box or fireproof safe or even at a local bank that has bank safe boxes). The registration card gets reissued when you pay your DMV registration fees yearly.

[1912Staver]

Big difference between property Titles { deeds ?] and vehicle Titles.

With property there is always a yearly tax bill , even if it is remote, undeveloped property with a miniscule yearly tax payment. So the authorities always keep records up to date on any and all properties.

 With vehicles there are so many ways the Title can be lost, plus the fact some vehicles have never even had a Title . Stir in the all over the map nature of the entire vehicle Title situation from State to State and it becomes obvious how Titles and old hobby cars / one time derelict cars become such a tangle to sort out.

 Think I am going to switch to collecting clocks.

Edited March 11 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[TTR]

IMO, unless the subject is something extremely unique, rare and valuable, unlike the ‘35 Dodge OP mentioned, easiest, simplest and not to mention smartest way to deal with a car/truck/etc intended for road use for sale without proper paperwork is to just walk away.
There are millions upon millions of old cars/trucks with solid paperwork available all over the world.

Why bother with something ordinary with obvious red flags and headaches ?  

Edited March 11 by TTR (see edit history)

[ABear]

50 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Big difference between property Titles { deeds ?] and vehicle Titles.

With property there is always a yearly tax bill , even if it is remote, undeveloped property with a miniscule yearly tax payment. So the authorities always keep records up to date on any and all properties.

 With vehicles there are so many ways the Title can be lost, plus the fact some vehicles have never even had a Title . Stir in the all over the map nature of the entire vehicle Title situation from State to State and it becomes obvious how Titles and old hobby cars / one time derelict cars become such a tangle to sort out.

 Think I am going to switch to collecting clocks.

Can't make that a absolute statement.

 

I can tell you how it works in my State though.

 

My house on 1.7 acres which I own (bought and paid for and no liens) I pay $800 per yr in taxes between local Township and local School system taxes. I also bought and paid for 2.2 acres of empty land beside my house property.. Pay $20 per yr on that in Local and School taxes..

 

I pay a yearly registration fee (IE road use tax) of $287 each on three F250 pickup trucks I own to my States DMV, if they were cars and not 3/4 ton trucks that would be under $80 per yr..

 

My State also has a on the road fuel tax which is the second highest of the 50 States.. Was the highest for a few years but this Jan we had some kind folks that rescinded some of the last tax increase and we dropped below the 1st place.

 

Have one antique car which is plated with an antique plate (must be 25 yrs or older to qualify) which I paid a one time registration fee of $240 and it gives me a permanent registration at no extra cost (although that class does have some usage limitations).

 

DMV here requires All vehicles that are driven on public roadways to carry auto insurance policies, the three trucks insurance as of the last 6 month bill are $2100 or for one yr costs a eye poppin $4100. Hoping to shed one of those now that my Daughter finally found a full time job.

 

My Antique car insurance is separate and costs $280 per yr but does require having at least one "Daily usage" vehicle with insurance to get that coverage.

 

As far as lost property Deeds, well the Counties in my State used to all issue Physical Deeds to land, my County switched to no longer issuing physical Deeds automatically, have to go to my County Court house, pay a fee and they will print out a copy from their records..

 

Lost Auto Titles, not so easy to do..

 

There is a huge difference between the two, not like you can steal the land and move it, but vehicles, well they can be stolen, moved and chopped up and sold.

[1912Staver]

16 minutes ago, ABear said:

Can't make that a absolute statement.

 

I can tell you how it works in my State though.

 

My house on 1.7 acres which I own (bought and paid for and no liens) I pay $800 per yr in taxes between local Township and local School system taxes. I also bought and paid for 2.2 acres of empty land beside my house property.. Pay $20 per yr on that in Local and School taxes..

 

I pay a yearly registration fee (IE road use tax) of $287 each on three F250 pickup trucks I own to my States DMV, if they were cars and not 3/4 ton trucks that would be under $80 per yr..

 

My State also has a on the road fuel tax which is the second highest of the 50 States.. Was the highest for a few years but this Jan we had some kind folks that rescinded some of the last tax increase and we dropped below the 1st place.

 

Have one antique car which is plated with an antique plate (must be 25 yrs or older to qualify) which I paid a one time registration fee of $240 and it gives me a permanent registration at no extra cost (although that class does have some usage limitations).

 

DMV here requires All vehicles that are driven on public roadways to carry auto insurance policies, the three trucks insurance as of the last 6 month bill are $2100 or for one yr costs a eye poppin $4100. Hoping to shed one of those now that my Daughter finally found a full time job.

 

My Antique car insurance is separate and costs $280 per yr but does require having at least one "Daily usage" vehicle with insurance to get that coverage.

 

As far as lost property Deeds, well the Counties in my State used to all issue Physical Deeds to land, my County switched to no longer issuing physical Deeds automatically, have to go to my County Court house, pay a fee and they will print out a copy from their records..

 

Lost Auto Titles, not so easy to do..

 

There is a huge difference between the two, not like you can steal the land and move it, but vehicles, well they can be stolen, moved and chopped up and sold.

I won't even tell you what my yearly property tax bill is here in Super expensive British Columbia , Canada. But you are getting off very light by Canadian tax standards. Vehicle and property  combined bill is well over double what you are paying.

 

The scam that has been somewhat successful up here is that criminals get a hold of enough information about you and your property go take out  a bank loan against it. It creates a huge mess for the property owner to sort out. And almost impossible to catch the perpetrator.

Edited March 11 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[ABear]

1912Staver,

 

Never said I was bad off, my parents home about a half mile from me the property taxes was more than three times what I pay and their property was about the same size. My County is very rural, old farm lands, homes are not stacked in cookie cutter fashion. Next County south of mine though has higher density population and a large city in that county and owning and living there comes at a much much higher cost.

 

Was using some real life info from my point of view to illustrate the differences between Property Deed, auto title functions and costs.

[1912Staver]

I am only slightly rural, small acreages and hobby farms with about 20% actual working farms. But within commuting distance to the city. Prices and taxes are both eye popping. If I hadn't bought a place near here almost 30 years ago I would never be able to live around here. 

 The U.S. is very attractive to me. My family history goes back to Ohio, but they left in about 1910 to homestead in Canada. At times I wish they never did.

Edited March 11 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

There is a situation I refer to as "continuity in the hobby". The example is how I have always been involved in old cars, fixing them and studying them. Apart from my working life, a different field altogether, there has been the buying and selling of cars and parts as well as involvement with a wide range of people involved similarly.

 

I just got a text confirming coffee in my garage tomorrow morning. Sitting here thinking about a potential rhetorical comment in the morning: "You mean you are 75 years old and don't know how to get a title for your car."

 

Lacking that continuity I can see a potential problem. Hopefully one develops other skills.

[gungeey]

On 3/9/2024 at 1:34 PM, crazycars said:

How can I go about getting a title for a recent barn find 1935 Dodge?  The seller has no paperwork and the car is located in Illinois. I am in RI which now demands a title for all out-of-state cars, no matter what the age. (Real friendly state!). I know that the Vermont registration method was recently closed down and can no longer be used.  All suggestions greatly appreciated

 I just read the "New Rules" for RI. Here's a copy and paste from your DMV:

 

• If an out of state used vehicle is being registered in Rhode Island, and the state from which the vehicle is coming is a state that did not require a title for that vehicle, a valid proof of ownership (e.g. old registration, or paid sales tax form) in the name of the seller must be presented, along with a VIN Inspection, at the time of sales tax payment or registration at the RI DMV. 

Titles | RI Division of Motor Vehicles

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, gungeey said:

 I just read the "New Rules" for RI. Here's a copy and paste from your DMV:

 

• If an out of state used vehicle is being registered in Rhode Island, and the state from which the vehicle is coming is a state that did not require a title for that vehicle, a valid proof of ownership (e.g. old registration, or paid sales tax form) in the name of the seller must be presented, along with a VIN Inspection, at the time of sales tax payment or registration at the RI DMV. 

Titles | RI Division of Motor Vehicles

Simple enough

 

  Ben

[1912Staver]

7 hours ago, TTR said:

IMO, unless the subject is something extremely unique, rare and valuable, unlike the ‘35 Dodge OP mentioned, easiest, simplest and not to mention smartest way to deal with a car/truck/etc intended for road use for sale without proper paperwork is to just walk away.
There are millions upon millions of old cars/trucks with solid paperwork available all over the world.

Why bother with something ordinary with obvious red flags and headaches ?  

I agree 100 % TTR. But the catch 22 for me is the addition I have to make to your list of exceptions " something extremely unique, rare and valuable " That would be the addition of affordable on a pretty slim , retired guy budget.

   In my case I like cars that almost fall into your category except the examples I can afford are run down, derelict, crashed , burned, partially parted out specimens  of very off the mainstream sports cars. Early Lotus, TVR , Morgan , Elva and a host of others. And so many times if I find one the paperwork vanished decades ago. I grew up with these cars and owned a number of them in my youth. Then the early 1980's recession hit my area particularly hard and the vast majority of them ended up Stateside or back in the U.K. or Western Europe.

 With the current cost of living situation in Western Canada these days each year a few more of what's left of the local car inventory also leave. As people age out of ownership the local pool of people with the interest and means to take over ownership shrinks faster than the rate at which cars become available and Bring a Trailer etc. makes another out of the area sale.

 If I could afford to just buy a decent one with no problems I would. But we all face our own challenges in life and mine is the impossibility of just going out and paying the going rate for a no problem example. A couple of  cars and several vintage British motorcycles I have been piecing together for decades . 1963 TVR Grantura MK3, 1959 Buckler MK 15. 1949 Triumph Trophy 500, 1954 BSA Gold Star 500, 1953 BSA Super Flash. If I am lucky I might even get to drive / ride one in my lifetime.

 Most of the fragments / hulks I find are in the U.S. , I look endlessly on all the club and one make forums. That is where the whole title hurdle comes into play. Years ago it was not a problem. These days it is almost always a deal breaker. Nearly all of these cars will eventually have their paperwork problems solved. Huge amount of interest and relatively few cars to go around. But I don't have any U.S. property to store them on while I wind through the various ways to re establish a title. I have often thought of buying a small place next door in Washington State for that purpose, but property has really shot up there over the last 20 years. Nearest place where things are still dirt cheap is South Eastern Oregon, but that is quite a long way away. How many hoops do you jump through before you just throw in the towel ?

Edited March 11 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[victorialynn2]

On 3/10/2024 at 3:53 PM, Terry Bond said:

 So far we've learned nothing about how RI handles the issue. Instead we've heard various (and often confusing) info about Texas, PA, NY, MD, even Australia. 

Terry

Apparently you didn’t read my posts where I 1) Posted a link to RI bonded title info and 2) Posted a copy of the form.  
 

[Terry Bond]

On 3/9/2024 at 6:24 PM, victorialynn2 said:

I literally posted Illinois’ bonded title process above.

I did read your earlier post but the info you provided was for Illinois, not Rhode Island.  Here is the link for the Rhode Island information.

Hopefully the OP is looking into this process as it seems to be a possible solution. I think we all agree on that.  It would be nice to hear back about how things are going.

 

https://dmv.ri.gov/registrations-plates-titles/titles

Terry

 

 

Edited March 12 by Terry Bond (see edit history)

[yachtflame]

I’m looking at purchasing a vintage car from a fellow in Connecticut that has a “Dealers license “. He says he doesn’t have or need a title to sell a car there, just a bill of sale. I’m thinking I need to call the CT DMV as well as the NH DMV to see what is true and required.

 Anyone here have experience with purchasing a car from someone with a Dealers License in CT?

Edited March 13 by yachtflame (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I have watched The Departed a few times and although Providence, R. I. is mentioned I didn't notice anything specific about the Department of Motor Vehicles. And my red haired daughter doesn't live in Winter Hill any longer.

[victorialynn2]

On 3/10/2024 at 3:01 AM, victorialynn2 said:

Correct, but the seller could apply in Illinois before he sells the car. 
 

Or apply in RI for a bonded title as a last resort to see if he can get it titled, if he already bought it. 

@Terry Bond this one is for RI. I thought it also posted a link but I see it didn’t. (I tried again and it’s won’t let me, so one needs to Google it.)

Edited March 12 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[37S2de]

OK. Happy hour has started here so I really shouldn’t be posting, but I am finished with even clicking on any thread that starts with “ How do I get a title in (fill in the state name here)” or “barn find” or “Grand pa’s car”  or any other derivation on the theme. I think the moderators should have a blanket statement that says “Check with your state’s DMV” and let it end there.

 

Tom

[TAKerry]

The forum subjects are kinda like a radio dial. If you dont like the topic dont open it! Quite a few topics post I have no interest in, doesnt bother me at all to ignore them!!

[nsbrassnut]

Yes, the standard answer should be to check with your local DMV regulations.

 

But it may help to also check the various rules and regulations when the vehicle is coming from another state/province to yours.

 

Here in Nova Scotia (eastern Canada) we do have vehicle "titles" generally referred to as the vehicle registration. That is the proof of ownership and you keep it at home. Purchasing a vehicle without a title whether local or from away can result in various challenges to get a registration certificate issued here. It can be very difficult, but not impossible. It has become more difficult since a lot of street rods applying and getting registrations for little more than a shell and sometimes less than that based on "fuzzy" paperwork. Here the rules are still a bit mixed up and modified vehicles have been getting away with running under Antique Auto plates which allow them to avoid having to have safety inspections or pay full price for their annual plate registration. Although the actual regulations for Antique Plates are only for "stock" vehicles. The DMV and Governments here have been working on new motor vehicle regulations. But like most Government departments, the process is moving at the same speed as glaciers. Its only been about 10 years in the works so far.

 

Now the DMV will want to see a complete vehicle, some history , purchase receipts or similar before even considering the process. And in some cases they want to see the finished product before they will issue a registration. And after the pain of that process, the registration fee is based on the valuation of the vehicle at the time the title registration is issued, but that is a one time fee. So it pays to go through the hoops to get a title registration before starting any restoration to avoid paying registration tax on your own restoration work.

 

Then, if you want actually drive it on the road. You first need the proof of ownership, see title registration above. Then apply for the license plates and pay the annual plate fee. Then you have to carry the plate registration with you in the vehicle.

 

So even in Canada, the process and regulations vary widely from province to province.

 

[mothboss]

@crazycars I'm not sure where you're located, but I found the folks at the Woonsocket DMV office to be exceptionally kind and helpful.  There's an option for title research when making an appointment online too. I would start here for answers about documents required from IL and seller, and bonded titles.

We recently moved to RI and just dealt with new drivers licenses and two vehicle registrations/title transfers, 4 DMV appointments total. I'm in Providence but sought out Woonsocket for all of them. 

Hope this helps, curious to hear how the process goes if you end up pursuing a title for the Dodge

[1912Staver]

17 hours ago, nsbrassnut said:

Yes, the standard answer should be to check with your local DMV regulations.

 

But it may help to also check the various rules and regulations when the vehicle is coming from another state/province to yours.

 

Here in Nova Scotia (eastern Canada) we do have vehicle "titles" generally referred to as the vehicle registration. That is the proof of ownership and you keep it at home. Purchasing a vehicle without a title whether local or from away can result in various challenges to get a registration certificate issued here. It can be very difficult, but not impossible. It has become more difficult since a lot of street rods applying and getting registrations for little more than a shell and sometimes less than that based on "fuzzy" paperwork. Here the rules are still a bit mixed up and modified vehicles have been getting away with running under Antique Auto plates which allow them to avoid having to have safety inspections or pay full price for their annual plate registration. Although the actual regulations for Antique Plates are only for "stock" vehicles. The DMV and Governments here have been working on new motor vehicle regulations. But like most Government departments, the process is moving at the same speed as glaciers. Its only been about 10 years in the works so far.

 

Now the DMV will want to see a complete vehicle, some history , purchase receipts or similar before even considering the process. And in some cases they want to see the finished product before they will issue a registration. And after the pain of that process, the registration fee is based on the valuation of the vehicle at the time the title registration is issued, but that is a one time fee. So it pays to go through the hoops to get a title registration before starting any restoration to avoid paying registration tax on your own restoration work.

 

Then, if you want actually drive it on the road. You first need the proof of ownership, see title registration above. Then apply for the license plates and pay the annual plate fee. Then you have to carry the plate registration with you in the vehicle.

 

So even in Canada, the process and regulations vary widely from province to province.

 

I believe you are in the one Province where there are Titles. Yes things do vary quite a bit from Province to Province, but not as much as what I am seeing with U.S. States.