nsbrassnut

Hi Alan Thanks for the notes. I have heard of some owners re-gearing their steering. One version was to cut and weld the pitman arm. But I'm not comfortable with that approach for mine. But I would consider changing to a different shorter pitman arm if I were to run across one. Mine does have the 26" boiler. It also has the later style "kidney" boiler water level gauge. I'm not sure if that was being used by '17 or not. Together they leave very little space around the steering box. I keep looking at the car and I think that the steering could be removed. Its just how many other bits have to be removed from it to gain enough access. It looks like the box has to move sideways about 2.5 inches to clear the frame (once the arm is off). But there is only an inch between the box and the water level gauge. I am planning to remove the burner assembly anyway to inspect the burner surface. I have some concerns about possible surface rust that may block some of the burner holes since the car has sat for several years. There is a layer of light flaky surface rust on the top boiler tubesheet and I expect to find more on the bottom. The burner holes are small and it wouldn't take much to plug some of them off. Fortunately it appears that the rust will brush off with only a little effort. With the burner out and if the level gauge is removed and a hood shelf removed (to be able to flex the splash shield slightly to get the arm off) and of course removing the steering wheel and bracket it should be possible to jiggle and maneuver the box down out from under the car. Presently the car is in what I consider my "clean garage" and I'm waiting until it gets moved into the workshop later this year before getting deeper into the dirty work like that.

Hi Nate Always watching for updates on your Dort project. I ran across this Dort wiring diagram and electrical description in a Dykes manual from c1920 recently and thought you might find it of interest. It may not cover yours, but perhaps it may still have some useful information.

Here are some pictures to show that I did have the tie rod and drag link off the Stanley for servicing and inspection. The parts cleaned up well and show only minimal wear. I did find though that there should be some leather "booties" on each end of the drag link to help keep the grease in and dirt out. I have some left over leather from another project that may help make some that will work. Its nice to work on an un-restored car where the bolts are all rusted and stuck. So far, nearly everything has come apart with hand tools and gentle force. Now for a bit of a comparison between a Stanley and Ford Model T from the same era. The Ford weighs about 1400 lbs dry, the Stanley about 3,800 dry. You may see in the pictures where some of that comes from.😉 Here is the Stanley tie rod beside a Ford T one. And the Stanley drag link beside a Ford T one.

Hi All For Ed. I appreciate your comments and suggestions. Please keep them coming, I have found them to be helpful on other projects too. This one will stay on to do list. It just may have to be deferred for a bit until I start to work on the parts that are in the way and can eventually find the room to get the steering box out.

Some additional information. I spent some time going through my reference library looking for information on Ross steering boxes. I found some notes that described a bit of the Ross history and design. From the notes, its appears that Ross started supplying steering boxes in the early 1920's or so. And that the early designs used shims between the main case and a side plate to adjust the mesh with the worm. After a few years, they redesigned the case to include an external screw and lock nut which allowed for the adjustment of the mesh of the pin and the worm with the steering still mounted in place. Unfortunately, it appears that I have one of the earlier designs. Here are some pictures from the Gasoline Automobiles reference book, c1940 that provided the additional information.

Hi All I;m copying this over from the Technical section so that there will be a more complete copy of the story here. Thank you for the comments and suggestions. I do agree that it would be better to remove it for a more detailed inspection and service. I did that with the tie rod and drag link. Off, apart, cleaned up, inspected then lubricated and re-installed. However, there is a problem with the steering box. Looking at the car it looks a lot like they installed the box on the bare frame, then built the rest around it. There is no path to take the steering box and column out without some potentially serious dismantling under the hood or perhaps even more. It has to go down through the firewall to come off. There is no removable panels in the body firewall or floor to allow it out that way. Here are some pictures to try to show the problem. Looking down on the steering box, it can't come up and out. The steam throttle is attached to the top of the box and above it is a water level gauge blowdown valve. Beside it with the fins is the boiler water level gauge. From underneath. The steering box cannot come forward and down without removing the boiler burner assembly and fuel supply lines. And then removing steering column mounting brackets at the dash, it may be possible to tilt it and take it down under the boiler support cross member (which is bolted for removal if the boiler is out). And then on top of all that. There may not be enough room to remove the pitman arm from the steering box before it hits the splash apron. Hopefully, if the frame mounting bolts are loosened first it would come off and allow the box to move in enough to get it off. So yes, the box needs to come off to be serviced. But it may have to wait until later when I have the burner off when it comes time to inspect it and pressure test the boiler. In the meantime it may just have to stay "as is" for now. Some more info on Ross steering next.

True. But most of it appears to have seeped out over time leaving just a film of film of lub inside. I have to dig some proper lube out and add it until such time as I can take the steering right off for a proper service.

For Ed. This box is at least oily inside. It wasn't dry when I pulled the fill plug. But it wasn't as full as it should have been either. No signs of rust inside, just gummy old oil. And based on the Stanley's history, I don't think that the car has cover more than 10,000 miles. And the caretakers of the day did try to keep it up when it was still in use. So far, most parts don't show much wear. But, wear is present.

Some additional information. I spent some time going through my reference library looking for information on Ross steering boxes. I found some notes that described a bit of the Ross history and design. From the notes, its appears that Ross started supplying steering boxes in the early 1920's or so. And that the early designs used shims between the main case and a side plate to adjust the mesh with the worm. After a few years, they redesigned the case to include an external screw and lock nut which allowed for the adjustment of the mesh of the pin and the worm with the steering still mounted in place. Unfortunately, it appears that I have one of the earlier designs. Here are some pictures from the Gasoline Automobiles reference book, c1940 that provided the additional information.

Hi All Thank you for the comments and suggestions. I do agree that it would be better to remove it for a more detailed inspection and service. I did that with the tie rod and drag link. Off, apart, cleaned up, inspected then lubricated and re-installed. However, there is a problem with the steering box. Looking at the car it looks a lot like they installed the box on the bare frame, then built the rest around it. There is no path to take the steering box and column out without some potentially serious dismantling under the hood or perhaps even more. It has to go down through the firewall to come off. There is no removable panels in the body firewall or floor to allow it out that way. Here are some pictures to try to show the problem. Looking down on the steering box, it can't come up and out. The steam throttle is attached to the top of the box and above it is a water level gauge blowdown valve. Beside it with the fins is the boiler water level gauge. From underneath. The steering box cannot come forward and down without removing the boiler burner assembly and fuel supply lines. And then removing steering column mounting brackets at the dash, it may be possible to tilt it and take it down under the boiler support cross member (which is bolted for removal if the boiler is out). And then on top of all that. There may not be enough room to remove the pitman arm from the steering box before it hits the splash apron. Hopefully, if the frame mounting bolts are loosened first it would come off and allow the box to move in enough to get it off. So yes, the box needs to come off to be serviced. But it may have to wait until later when I have the burner off when it comes time to inspect it and pressure test the boiler. In the meantime it may just have to stay "as is" for now. Some more info on Ross steering next.

Good looking Packard engine. I have sometimes had similar issues with my Packard 120 being hard to start after sitting for a longer period of time. I found that it has a few tendencies that give some grief. It was fully rebuild 25,000 miles ago and works well once warmed up. And like others have suggested above, with the even compression readings, I don't thing the problem in in the engine. Other issues that I have run across, and mostly out of the service manuals check lists. - Carburetor drying out from sitting - Fuel pump loosing its prime - Old gas - Heavy oil - More below. Sometimes poring a bit of fresh gas down the carb throat helped for that first start, but that shouldn't be necessary. I did find that it helped to hold the pedal down (full throttle) and hold the choke full shut when the car has sat for a long time since its last outing. This gives the maximum suction in the carburetor throat and helps to pull the gas from the tank into the pump and carb. Then it fired up more easily. I don't know about your Packard, but on mine there is a separate button for cranking the engine over with the ignition off. I use this process first with the ignition off to avoid starting the engine with the throttle wide open. 10-20 seconds of cranking the engine, ignition off, with the throttle open and choke shut has helped it to start easier after sitting a long time. Once its warmed up, it will fire up in less than a half revolution. Other things to check include electrical issues as well. Such as: - Good battery (a typical check) - Proper battery cables, often too small size cables have installed. - Voltage at the distributor when the engine is cranking. It should be 4.5-5 volts minimum on a 6 volt system when the engine is cranking. If its less, there isn't enough power to properly fire the plugs. - Low voltage can be a sign of bad connections, undersized cables, weak battery etc. It may take a while to work your way through the possible causes. A period Packard manual, or period Motor manual may help a lot as they usually include some good general check lists of what to check. If you have to cover the air intake to get it to start it sounds line an issue with the carburetor or choke. Side note, to get the best compression reading, the choke and the throttle both have to be wide open so as to not restrict airflow when cranking. Testing compression with the throttle shut is restricting the airflow and will lower the compression reading, even on a good engine. And if you can find one, a Packard manual for that car should specify the compression reading to be expected from a good engine. The factory reading may be less than the compression ratio times 14.7 psig. Volumetric efficiency, or the ability for the engine to actually suck in a full charge of air at atmospheric pressure when cranking is less than 100%. So a 4:1 compression ration engine would likely have a factory pressure reading guideline of less than 60 psig, Good luck with your Packard.

Success. Layden was able to help me out. He found enough clamps in his misc. pile to complete the set.

Hi All I got to spend some time on my Stanley project today. The goal was to adjust the steering box a bit to reduce the amount of play at the rim of the steering wheel. By the end I learned a bit, but didn't make much progress. From the restoration blog for another Stanley 735 I was expecting to find a Warner steering box. And my Dykes cover's Warner. Unfortunately, it appears to have Ross Gear steering box. And that one is not described in my Dykes from that period. I think the adjustment is to loosen up the clamp bolt at the top of the steering box and the steering column clamp at the dash. The turn the big nut fitting at the top of the steering box. I was able to get it to move just a bit back and forth before giving up for the day. I need to get a different wrench for better access. Here are some pictures of the Ross Gear box in the hope that someone may have run across one before and have an idea on how to adjust it.

I spent some time on the Stanley this weekend. The goal was to try to adjust some of the play out of the steering box. There is a bit more free play at the steering wheel than I would like. Currently the play is about 2" and I would like to get it under 1". I thought I had some information on the steering box and how to adjust it, but it turned out my reference information doesn't cover the right year. Some may have run across the website http://stanleymotorcarriage.com/735restoration/RestorationHome.htm where the owner of a 1918 Stanley 735B has told the story of his restoration. His car had a Warner steering box. I was also able to find some information for Warner in Dykes manuals for that period. The access to the steering is not simple on this car. The shiny box in the second picture is a try at an oil - water separator for the condensate from the condenser on the way back to the water tank that Keith added. The later condensing Stanleys can experience issues with steam oil in the condensate which can eventually get into the boiler and could lead to longer term damage. After I removed the separator box and could get to the steering box I looked for clamping bolts and anything that might look like a form of adjustment. I think that the adjustment is to loosen everything up then turn the big nut on the steering column on the top of the box. This may turn an eccentric bushing to move the steering gears closer together to reduce the play. Well that is the current thought. I was barely able to move the nut and steering tube a bit then decided to put it all back together and think about it a bit more. Taking the steering off entirely is not in the plan for now, as it looks like the boiler has to come out along with one of the boiler support mounts in order to provide room for the box and column to come out the bottom of the car. while I was in there I found writing on the side of the steering box. It looks like its a Ross Gear company steering box and not a Warner. And unfortunately, Ross is not covered in my Dykes book. So if anyone has any information on Ross steering boxes from this period it would be welcomed. I'm also going to post it under Technical and see if anyone there might have some information. I

Spotted on the Ontario Kijiji site. A rough looking '37 Packard 12 sedan project, or more likely these days a parts car. I don't know anything else about it, just though it might be of interest here. https://www.kijiji.ca/v-voiture-collection/ouest-de-lile-qc/1937-packard-v12-sedan/1688354697