Pure restoration or get it driving?

[BobinVirginia]

I’ve encountered a couple instances where people can’t afford to completely restore a car. However, they can buy or substitute parts to get it going to live again. What’s the right thing? I want all original but is it better to make something live modified or scrap because it can’t be all original? I’d rather sacrifice a few things to make something live again. Your thoughts? 
 

Disclaimer- Super rare important cars don’t apply to this

[Frank DuVal]

Getting it on the road would be #1 in my book. That is not restoring it to #1 status and getting trophies in AACA judging. That will follow as funds materialize. But I would not put in something for now that means major modification down the road to put it back to stock or a major change that means wasted dollars down the road to correct. Like dropping a SBC into a 30s car. Unless you are building a street rod or maybe a rat rod. Are you speaking of upholstery, paint, drivetrain? 

[BobinVirginia]

12 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

Getting it on the road would be #1 in my book. That is not restoring it to #1 status and getting trophies in AACA judging. That will follow as funds materialize. But I would not put in something for now that means major modification down the road to put it back to stock or a major change that means wasted dollars down the road to correct. Like dropping a SBC into a 30s car. Unless you are building a street rod or maybe a rat rod. Are you speaking of upholstery, paint, drivetrain? 

Just substituted modern parts to get things going. Not a hack street rod job

[BobinVirginia]

My thoughts are get it going as original as possible within my means. 

[BobinVirginia]

2 minutes ago, Jack Bennett said:

Hi BobinVirginia……..Another rule I strictly observe as I work with my old cars is that “when it stops being fun, it becomes work”…….and I am retired!

Simply put, I spend as much time shopping for parts and researching the history of my machines….I also have a 1947 M53A Cushman motor scooter and a 1947 Ford 8N tractor…..as I spend actually working on them.

It is a hobby and, regardless of how well you think you’ve done it, or how much money you’ve spent doing it, there is always someone who has done it better and spent more money. 
No competition, no contention……have fun with your projects!

Jack

 

Thanks Jack! I just want to have fun without being shunned!!! Lol

[Pfeil]

Get it running and driving only for evaluation. If you put off restoration it will never happen.

[BobinVirginia]

@Jack Bennett

 

We're talking about a 1921 Haynes 

 

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Restoration is overrated!  In my opinion!   Refurbished is good enough for me.  THE CAR DOES NOT CARE.   People do.  Mores the pity.

 

  To each his own.

 

  Ben

[alsancle]

With a gallon of paint going for 750 bucks I would say the age of the full restoration is over.  Unless you are a billionaire or almost a billionaire spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on restoration is insanity.

 

Mechanical sorting and maintenance is the way to go.  The more you can do on your own the better off you will be.

[Porsche 68]

I like to find them get them running and driving safely Source original parts as much as possible drive the heck out of them and enjoy !   John 

[JV Puleo]

Needless to say, I come down on the side of running. But, what exactly is a pure restoration? I don't think any "restored" car hasn't been fitted with some new parts and, for the most part these will be modern new parts even if made to look like the old ones. The whole claim that a car is "completely original" is specious. These are complicated machines and if you were to find one in completely untouched condition after 100 years any number of things would have to be changed before it could be driven or even started.

 

What do you do if the original workmanship was second rate (which is more common than most enthusiasts would like to admit)... reproduce a part that was questionable when new? What do you do if the manufacturer chose a poor carburetor strictly on the basis of price...put the same one on? What about parts made of that wretched pot metal that have deteriorated and even if you found a new one would be positively dangerous to use? It's all a matter of judgement and I come down on the side of get it working and then, if you choose, refine the job.

[BobinVirginia]

The old car isn’t particularly valuable and parts a few and far between. I’ve figured I’m going to take some liberties with a few things to get it functioning. I’m happy to know that some of you seem to share the same opinion I have on the car. 
no plans on blow it completely apart for high end restoration. Just get it going and enjoy! . 

[JV Puleo]

As I remember the pictures, your Haynes is in remarkably well preserved condition. You'd be doing the hobby a favor by not restoring it. This insane concentration on cosmetic perfection has ruined an almost countless number of interesting early cars. I actually have a rule for this...I try to keep all my modifications in the context of the cars working life which is probably 10 years after it was built. If it's a 1917 car I'd try to keep the changes to parts that were available before 1928. It isn't always possible but it does give you a car that appears as it might have when still in regular use.

Edited September 24, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[BobinVirginia]

Project has been delayed a few years. Covid, work, family and a harsh shoulder surgery last year have all put the brakes on it. Fingers crossed the project starts this winter. 

[BobinVirginia]

@Jack Bennett

No worries on the amount of comments! I put this out there to hear what others have done or find acceptable with regards to small modifications for the sake of the car living again. Thanks for sharing 

[Mark Shaw]

I agree with Jack.  When somebody makes a negative comment about your car, just tell them it wasn't restored to be a show car.    All my cars are drivers with original drive trains and original components when available.   Spending big $$ to win cheap trophies at car shows never made sense to me.  Many collectors have recently prized preservation class cars with original paint patina and corroded bumpers over fully restored show cars.  

[kar3516]

1 hour ago, Mark Shaw said:

I agree with Jack.  When somebody makes a negative comment about your car, just tell them it wasn't restored to be a show car.    All my cars are drivers with original drive trains and original components when available.   Spending big $$ to win cheap trophies at car shows never made sense to me.  Many collectors have recently prized preservation class cars with original paint patina and corroded bumpers over fully restored show cars.  

Amen

[Porsche 68]

When I go to car shows or just driving around to get parts or go shopping I get a lot of compliments on how nice it is to see an original and not restored car I tell them if I re stored I would not drive it I actually encourage people to drive it! John 

[Porsche 68]

Jack don’t be mad come over to NY state and drive the heck out the Dodge I like to have people experience what it is like driving an original car Plenty of beautiful open roads here You made a remark about tires I just bought 4 Firestone 6.50x16 from a man who had them on a show truck that was never driven on the road he bought radials for it now he drives it and my tires are perfect drives so much nicer now I have decided to go to Hershey for the day to buy new rubber bits for the Dodge to do a refresh 

[Angelfish]

In my experience, which may not amount to a lot compared to others on this forum, there are two ways, and two ways only, to deal with a project car.

 

1: Get it road worthy and fix the obvious things, then go drive and enjoy it.   If using an incorrect part is the difference between driving it and not, use the part just be mindful of how you are doing it.  In the process of getting it road worthy, don't do anything that can't be undone: cutting the dash or frame for example.  A new cheap paint job over bad body work is worse than the original paint in deteriorated condition, see Porsche 68's post, above.  Will it win any trophies?  Who cares as long as it makes you happy and you saved the car. 

 

2:  Do it all and do it right.  And I do mean all .   Every bolt in the car comes out.   This is expensive and time consuming, and many that get started don't get finished.   If you have the time, money, and fortitude to stick it out it can be rewarding.  It will take a lot longer than you think, it will cost a lot more than you think, and there will be many times would you would happily push the car into a snake filled ravine, never to be seen again by the eye of man. 

 

The good news is, if you choose #1 and don't butcher the poor thing, you can move on to #2 later if you decide it is something you want to take on.

 

But a half restoration doesn't seem to work.  It will never look right if part is new and part is old, and you're in this awkward land of not being sure when to stop.

 

[Larry Schramm]

I am on the side of getting it road worthy and driving the wheels off the vehicle and enjoying the scenery as it was when the car was built.   There is nothing like driving down a dirt road with a 100 year old car.

 

The first thing is the get the brakes in perfect order.  Then make sure the steering is in good order. After that get the running and driving.

 

Remember,  If you can not get it started, you can not get in trouble but if you can not stop it, you are in trouble.  

 

In many of our opinions, the best trophy is a worn out set of tires.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Porsche 68]

Jack nice Dodge I also have a 25 Dodge woody my first antique car I don’t really drive it that much anymore since I got the coupe it’s slow and is a harsh ride on my bad back but neat car nonetheless. John

[Porsche 68]

Jack yes external band and internal shoes for parking brake rear only brakes strangely enough it stops quite well. It was a mess when I first acquired it. John

[Dr B]

On 9/23/2023 at 11:35 PM, Jack Bennett said:

If being “shunned” is a concern, stick with basket weaving or quilting.

Great line! Not sure about those quilters, they can be an ornery bunch 😂

 

It is amazing the wide spectrum of people in this hobby.  Some are "all welcoming" and others are complete snobs and "nothing you do is good enough".  I try and fall in the former camp.  Too many car hobbyists have met the later and quickly quit and ran away.  

 

I was also not sure about what the OP meant by running vs. restored.  I believe in the "get it running" and keep it as original looking (not necessarily original) as possible.

 

Robert

Edited September 25, 2023 by Dr B (see edit history)

[Century Eight]

When I first got into this hobby in 1971 with my new to me ‘31 Chevy, I found those old farts that could be intimidating.  Fortunately I have never become one of those I don't think, and always try to be encouraging about someone’s wheels.  Yes’ I admit, I do like to look at my cars but it is so much more fun to drive them.  

 

Something someone once told me that has stuck with me for years is that “No matter how much money you have in your car, you will never have a mantle big enough to put it on”.  (I suppose a garagemahal could be the exception)  A very well known restorer I have known for years once told me, if you must ‘restore’ a car, then show it, earn a bunch of trophies for credibility, then retire it and have fun with it.  

 

I have tried to follow that advice.  I improve my cars, enjoy them and then have to fix them.  That way, it stays a hobby.   The nicer they get, the less I want to drive them, then they sit in the corner and deteriorate anyway.

 

I’ll wrap this up.  To paraphrase what JV Puleo said, keep your modifications to the period a decade after the car was built,  then go ahead and get out on the pavement.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Century Eight (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

With a 1921 Haynes there are only going to be a handfull of  " modern " parts that can even be substituted. A electric fuel pump for a vacuum tank for example. But 1921 is old enough that nearly no part of that car has a suitable modern counterpart. Technology does advance a bit in 100 years. 

[TAKerry]

No right answer. If you have the time and money to restore to perfection, by all means do so. If you want to get the mechanicals in shape and drive a rust bucket, by all means do so. When I was finished with my 77 t/a I was afraid to drive it. Not that it is anything special but because I had just put 5 years of my life into a comprehensive nut and bolt restoration. I did not want to age it adversely through use. I went to a couple of shows and babied it for the first couple of years. Then my son told me to get it out and drive it. Said something to the effect of me not getting any younger and the car wont care if its perfect or not. SO drive it I did. And I love driving it and have no reservations at all about doing so. Looking forward to my Hershey trip next week. Along those lines, when I got my current project car (79 t/a) my intention was a quick paint job, put together, get it running and sell. The more time I had into it, the more I had to find the 'correct' part then my focused switched to points judging. At about 60% finished I am on the fence now as to show or DPC.

[DFeeney]

It has been my observation that the nicer a person's car car becomes, the less he drives it due to fear of  accidents and road wear.  All my stuff is shelf worn (including me).  When I drive my old stuff I can go "Back to the Day" and the Lady sitting next to me appears a little younger.

[Paul Dobbin]

At 50 years in AACA next month and a life time of owning 115 cars,  114 of which were old used cars.   My father told me at 13, "yes  you can buy that 1952 Zundapp motorcycle, but  you have to restore it before you can ride it."   I knew nothing about old german motorcycles, but Iearned that restoration skills I had learned with boats applied to anything mechanaical.   The finished Zundapp provided the freedom of going places and meeting other young guys with boats, motorcycles and CARS.!   Sold the boats and the Zundapp and bought old cars and found a lifetime interest.

Out from under my father's supervision I learned that all vehicles were a lot more interesting if they ran well.   Hence I've always made them run & drive to keep the restoration flame burning.   Bolting a lawn chair to the chassis for a test ride around the block, did wonders for my enthusiasm.

I've seen other guys actually bring a running chassis to local car shows a few times, always a hit with me and other people who came to the shows

   

Edited September 26, 2023 by Paul Dobbin (see edit history)

[MarkV]

Drive it! Tomorrow is never promised, enjoy it today. You also don’t have to worry about scratches, etc. 

[Paul Dobbin]

9 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:

Hi 1912Staver…….The electric fuel pump is a good way to improve the lift of the vacuum tank. Just remember that it is a gravity fed system, and the average electric pump puts out about 7 psi. This is way too much for the gravity fed needle valve of your Stewart carburetor to handle. Do yourself a favor and get a pressure regulator to limit the output pressure to about 2 to 2 1/2 pounds. Another good addition is to wire the fuel pump to the ignition switch so that it doesn’t run unless the ignition is on…….may not save having an engine fire……..but again, it may.

Jack

  NAPA sells a 2.5 PSI electric fuel pump in 6 & 12 Volt.  Otherwise, like Jack implied, you are wasting gas and flooding the engine.  

  It takes good NAPA Parts guy to find this pump and it will have to be ordered, but it's worth the wait.

[californiamilleghia]

9 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:

  NAPA sells a 2.5 PSI electric fuel pump in 6 & 12 Volt.  Otherwise, like Jack implied, you are wasting gas and flooding the engine.  

  It takes good NAPA Parts guy to find this pump and it will have to be ordered, but it's worth the wait.

If anyone has the parts number and maybe the price please post it 

 

Thanks

[Paul Dobbin]

28 minutes ago, californiamilleghia said:

If anyone has the parts number and maybe the price please post it 

 

Thanks

   The great 6 volt fuel pump is a Carter P4259, also available from NAPA under their number B-0110-E low pressure

   no regulator needed.  Life time warranty.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Paul Dobbin (see edit history)

[AHa]

The thing about a complete restoration is it takes a huge amount of time. Even if you ship everything out, it still can take years. If you try to do the majority of the work yourself, you can add a few years more. None of us know the future or know whether we will have the time or drive to put the car together once it is apart. Online searches reveals tons of cars where the restoration was started. Many of these cars have changed hands two or three times and have not been put back together. And some parts are inevitably lost. All the while you could have been driving the car around.

 

Another thing to consider is unrestored cars are coming up in value and respect. They used to be looked down on in car clubs and you used to hear people say, Why don't he restore that thing! but no more. Now they are appreciated for what they are.

 

If I remember correctly, you had some bad wood in the driver's door. I would repair as much as possible with epoxy. When you look at the time and expense of buying the tools and sourcing the lumber, cutting it out and fitting it in, verses a couple of hours with some epoxy and using the original parts, it's a no brainer. You can mix saw dust with epoxy to add back missing wood. Take the easy road and get it running. Do what needs to be done to get it going as easily and cheaply as possible. How long have you owned the car now and have you got anything accomplished while trying to decide what to do? There is your answer.

[chistech]

I believe it is all based first on what the car in question actually is. Is it an average, highly produced vehicle, or is it a low production one, etc. If a car is close to running or roadworthy, i would simply get it up and running trying to be as correct as possible. If you’re starting with a basket case, then there is multiple ways to go. My ‘31 chevy special sedan and my 32 Oldsmobile were both complete basket cases. When I bought the chevy the frame was restored and it came with the following, all new or restored, tires, LB full interior kit, every piece of chrome redone, and most small were done to new. The way to finish the car was obvious based on what I had. It was restored back to new with an extremely nice but not overdone paint job. My Olds had some pieces like the hubcaps, fender lights, and fender spears rechromed  when I bought it but everything else would need to be redone. The olds is extremely rare and little is truthfully known about them. I got lots of advice on how I should restore my car and the majority was suggesting I should hot rod it! With the car’s rarity and with it being mostly complete with matching numbers, I quickly threw out the idea of anything but a as close to OEM restoration. So both my cars are restored to OEM new condition. The olds has won most every award I can win including the R.E. Olds AACA National Award. So there is a lot in common condition wise between the two but the most common is they’re both cars. Cars are meant to be driven and that is what I do. While my wife is nervous when we’re out in the olds, it because of the hours I put into the restoration. While I was actively showing it in the AACA, I didn’t drive it much but do now. I taught my neighbor to drive the Chevy so we go out driving with our wife’s in my two cars so they get used. The chevy was 13-14 months to complete and the Olds was three years. All things that need doing should be done ina timely fashion and I never put a project on the back burner once i start.

       My 83 M1009 blazer, while it did get a large makeover, it didn’t get a full, nut and bolt restoration like the other two. Again, based on what I started with and what my goals were is how I went about restoring it.

[Porsche 68]

My friend bought this 38 Plymouth original sitting since 65 yes it’s crusty but he will get it running and driving by the spring He drove my 34 coupe and loved it ! John

[AHa]

You see, with the previous car, the rust spots can be treated with vinegar and a rag. Just soak the rag in vinegar and leave  it on for a while, adding a little more vinegar periodically. The rust will dissolve away. The remaining paint can be polished up. Wheels can be painted with semigloss paint and radial tires installed. This will make the car presentable. Drain the oil, and put in fresh, add a new battery, and fire it up. Then you can begin driving it and working out the kinks.

[JamesR]

On 9/23/2023 at 9:18 PM, BobinVirginia said:

I’d rather sacrifice a few things to make something live again. Your thoughts? 

 

The main thing that made me decide to take a more practical approach to refurbishing my Mainline Ranch Wagon was it's badly deteriorated interior. As much as I loved the idea of original, the permanent floor mat had molded designs and lines on the face-up surface, and there was no way I was going to find an even close replica of that (at least at that time. I see Carpenter now has something similar, but not identical.) Carpet was going to be my only affordable option. The badly worn upholstery had an old weird sort of vinyl covering for some of the panels - and it was still available at SMS - but it was very expensive, rather fragile/brittle (even as NOS) and not that comfortable. Given that the floor wasn't going to be original, going to extremes for originality in upholstery didn't seem reasonable. I followed the same basic pattern with a nice modern but era appropriate material.

 

Money played a big role in all of this. I spent so much having the (minor) body rust properly patched and repaired by a professional that I couldn't spend a lot on paint. I protected metal surfaces in a color that ended up being similar to - but not quite the same as - the worn (mostly) original paint. I envision a day when I have the car repainted in its original Highland Green. The car needed the rust halted and the badly deteriorated interior made livable. I accomplished that, but won't win any awards. I have spent a lot on the car by my standards, but about half of what it would've costed to get it perfectly like the original.

[AHa]

I wonder if there ever has been a pure restoration. The word itself has a broad meaning. No early cars ever had base clear paint. If a car is painted with base clear, it is not restored. To restore would be to use original paint and apply it as original. I pulled a 1914 model T Ford out of a barn after some 80 years of slumber. It was wearing its original paint and there was a sag in the paint that started at the front of the body and continued to the rear of the body, all down the left side, midwise down. To restore the car would be to duplicate this run in the paint with lacquer as original. Does anybody think the car was restored.

Edited October 3, 2023 by AHa (see edit history)