1922 Chandler is getting a new paint job! Use the very best modern paint?

[PWN]

1922 Chandler.  Any reason to try and go with a period type lacquer? My paint guy insists on the very best 2 part epoxy (clear coat) for long term protection and good looks. He is a true artist.

 

Peter

[John_S_in_Penna]

One award-winning professional restorer told me

that basecoat-clearcoat paint is not appropriate for

cars that didn't have it originally.  It is too glossy,

and the difference will be obvious to those who 

know what to look for.

 

The case may be parallel to having the wrong material

for the top;  or the wrong grain of leather;  or plating

that is too bright.  The public will be pleased to admire

your car, but the car won't be as accurate historically.

 

Others might recommend the appropriate paint material.

[31Buick96S]

38 minutes ago, PWN said:

1922 Chandler.  Any reason to try and go with a period type lacquer? My paint guy insists on the very best 2 part epoxy (clear coat) for long term protection and good looks. He is a true artist.

 

Peter

I would follow the guidance from your painter.  Unless you are building a museum piece, you’ll benefit from the durability, good looks and ease of care more than being 100% faithful to the original formulation of the paint. Look forward to seeing pictures of your car when done.

[Bhigdog]

It will look like modern super glossy street rod paint on your beautiful 1922 stock Chandler..........Your choice..........Bob

[Rusty_OToole]

I vote for a good quality paint without clear coat. If you want to go to an extreme there are still companies in England that make the brushing enamel that was used on many pre 1920s cars.

[TAKerry]

Ive got base coat, clear coat on my trans am, I wish it was 'super glossy' LOL. I have to work on that end to keep it up. Its not a miracle paint that comes off shiny and stays that way.

I would trust your painter if you are confident in his skil level. The more one buffs the better the finish. Maybe he can stop one step from his usual finish if you want to tone down the gloss level. When bc/cc is applied the clear coat is wet sanded (it can be left alone) to remove any imperfections, orange peel etc. I stop at 6000 gr. At that point the whole car is a scuffed up mess! The buffer wheel comes out with a multi step rubbing/buffing/polishing process to re-introduce the level of shine.

 

Single stage paint is nice, but I have heard that bc/cc is easier to maintain in the long run, though I may be wrong.

 

I dont think one is even allowed to use a true lacquer in my state.

[JayG]

Why not go with an acrylic urethane enamel.  You’ll get the 2 part durability without the super gloss of bccc

[PWN]

Thanks All,

 

I was always thinking a single stage enamel at least, and in particularly irrational frames of mind I was thinking a brush job like Rusty mentioned. But my paint guy is adamant. The last time I was in his shop he was matching the baby puke brown of a $100,000 plus 1970s Porsche 911 S 2.4 Targa on a rear fender. I am pretty sure I can get him to do a real good paint without clear coat. He is a rodder though, but he is a well sought after painter. The only reason hes doing my Chandler is that a wood body pre war car is on his bucket list. I am doing a ton of initial prep to save some bank.

 

 

I just read this and it has me thinking.

https://benklesc.medium.com/when-paint-jobs-lasted-forever-the-lost-art-of-single-stage-9f99973befaf

[wayne sheldon]

For the most part, people need to forget about painting their prewar cars just like what was originally used. Almost certainly, a 1922 Chandler would not have been painted in Lacquer. While lacquer type paints have been around for a very long time (mid 1800s at least?), their chemistry hadn't been made practical for anything as large as an automobile until about the mid 1920s.

Even modern enamel paints are not really like the enamels of the 1910s and 1920s. Paint chemistry has been evolving almost constantly for hundreds of years. Automobile manufacturers from the beginning were searching for better, more durable, and faster drying paints to improve production times getting their products to the market. 

From the basically shellac type paints before 1910, through improved enamels of the 1910s and early 1920s, pyroxylin paints of the mid to late 1920s, and eventually the lacquer we remember and love.

 

As for "base coat clear coat"? That is how the carriage trade had been painting expensive carriages for a hundred years! And how many automobiles were painted before 1915. Of course it was a shellac based tinted "base coats" and shellac based "clear coat".

[zdillinger]

Moder base clear looks awful on early cars in my opinion. Completely anachronistic. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[DavidinCA]

I agree with John S, it’s simply the wrong material.  Base clear is a modern, or at least relatively modern look. It would seem as out of place to me on a 20s car as would modern colors.  I’m not sure I’d go all the way back to brushed, but there has to be a middle ground that’s practical, affordable, and looks more period than a clear coat will. Any added durability of a clear coat seems unnecessary, since in all likelihood the car will spend most of its time indoors and out of the elements.  

[Rusty_OToole]

Plain enamel will last longer than base clear if it is cared for. You can see 10 year old cars in any parking lot with the clear coat peeling off like a bad sun burn. Those have been left out in the weather but still. You can find 50+ year old synthetic enamel and acrylic lacquer jobs that still look good after a buff and wax job.

Get the base clear if you like but keep it waxed and indoors under a car cover if you want it to last as long as a plain old paint job.

[prewarnut]

Many '20s cars (at least by now) don't have perfect panel alignment, have possible door sag or twists, divets from the underside "pull" of hinge and hardware components, overlapping (not flush) metal skin for the battery or tool compartments along running board splash shield...there are a half dozen reasons not to want a super gloss shine on these; you'll see misaligned reflections galore.

[DFeeney]

I would make it a point to attend some car shows/ cruise nights and look at clear coat paint "Up Close and Personal"   I have seen it many times on prewar original cars and always  felt it looked out of place.  In the end it is "Your Call".  How sad it would be to spend the money and then have to defend your decision to the majority prewar enthusiasts  who will question you about it.  Another way to look at the choice follows.  1.  Clear coat, 2.  Chrome Wheels.  3.  350 Chevy.    If in the end you decide to go with clear coat.  I would buy a small amount of product and paint a 2' x 2' piece of sheet metal and set it on your running board and step back and look at it.   "Jus Sayin"

[edinmass]

The real question is can you buy lacquer in your state.

 

Every car club and judging events accepts modern paint. 
 

Now I am certain someone will correct me………

[ted sweet]

a pro in new york cant spray any laquer based paint or even it in the shop

Edited July 8, 2023 by ted sweet (see edit history)

[Willy]

Just noticed, someone’s selling a 1934 Chandler for $12k

[29 Chandler]

1 hour ago, Willy said:

Just noticed, someone’s selling a 1934 Chandler for $12k

Pretty rare car since they stopped production in 1929 🙃

 

Do you have a link you can post?

[29 Chandler]

Peter I see both sides of the story on this one. I’m in the camp of single stage paint for a car as old as ours. But then your painter may know something I don’t. I know the advantage of clear coat is it’s UV protection and that is important for our modern cars that are driven every day, but if you are going to enjoy your Chandler like we do it will be in the garage most of the time. I vote for single stage, we did that recently on our 1967 MGB GT and it looks period correct.

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

IMHO, I like bc/cc. I’ve used both 1K and 2K paints. What I see at the car shows I’ve gone to in the past is that everyone seems to want that smooth as glass look. That’s fine for newer cars and trucks or if thats your goal.  To get that old time look, you don’t do the cut part of cut and buff. You just use rubbing compound and Turtle wax on a wool pad. It takes more time and talent to lay down a smooth paint job that doesn’t need to be cut. Back when I started to paint vehicles, there really wasn’t 2K. Lacquer and acrylic enamels were what was available. There wasn’t ceramic coatings, just wax. 
It sounds like your painter will do a great job. I would talk to him and let him know what you want the final look to be. Then the two of you can decide what will be best. Mike

[wayne sheldon]

I never tried to do a show car level restoration. Just never reached a point in my life that I had the time and money nor really wanted to. When I was restoring a few cars for my own use back in the 1970s, I used lacquer, acrylic lacquer, and acrylic enamel paints, purchased from quality automotive paint supply stores. I liked the acrylic enamel, the way it sprayed, covered, and dried, as well as how it looked when done. I wish that was still available. 

[60FlatTop]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:14 PM, PWN said:

My paint guy insists on

Who will you use if you go with an alternative?

[alsancle]

Your paint guy is adamant because he wants to use materials he is familiar with.  That is the best argument he can make.

 

A more important question than the type of paint is the color of the paint,

[29 Chandler]

Peter do you have some original paint left on the body to match or what are you plans for color choice?

[28 Chrysler]

I agree that the modern paints don;t look right on prewar cars.

The clear coat on my Ranger PU started breaking down before the truck was 10 years old,

[Frank DuVal]

On 7/7/2023 at 5:05 PM, PWN said:

I just read this and it has me thinking.

https://benklesc.medium.com/when-paint-jobs-lasted-forever-the-lost-art-of-single-stage-9f99973befaf

I have painting and collision shop experience (owned one for 13 years) and I gave up reading that article when I saw so many errors. 

 

Like this example:  the more orange peel you have the more UV protection your finish will obtain

This is rubbish! The more layers of paint( Single stage)/clear (BC/CC) you have the more UV protection. Orange peel is how one applies the finish.

[60FlatTop]

I clicked on "Bennie" the authors name and saw his list of recent articles. He writes for groceries.

[PWN]

On 7/9/2023 at 10:05 AM, 29 Chandler said:

Peter do you have some original paint left on the body to match or what are you plans for color choice?

Hi Chris, I am going with the red. My grandfather painted the car in 1961 but didn't do a great job and there is surface rust under the paint. In the AA article from the 60s he said it was originally rainbow blue but I have removed parts that had his red over spray on them and it was red underneath. I think the car was always red. My grandfather, if I remember correctly, said is was Chrysler red like the original factory Chander red.

 

I talked with the painter and he has done a bunch of single stage enamels and that is the way to go.

Edited July 11, 2023 by PWN (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Is there any way we can talk you out of that?   

[John_S_in_Penna]

13 hours ago, alsancle said:

Is there any way we can talk you out of that?   

Al, you want to save him from doing something odd,

I know, but a lot more research would be requisite.

 

Old historical accounts show that some old cars

came in many colors other than the sedate ones

that may come to mind.  (For example, college 2-tones

in that era.)  If he asks for our thoughts on the color,

we could point him to one or more past threads, but

they didn't specifically address 1922 Chandlers.

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

Maybe the price of red paint may sway the outcome? LOL

[PWN]

15 hours ago, alsancle said:

Is there any way we can talk you out of that?   

Talk me out of red? My grandfather sold this Chandler in 1922 as Florida's Chandler distributor in Wauchula. He sold several red Chandlers and in Cleveland where they were made, the fire departments fire chiefs used them.....they were red. In 1919 they had a black hood, but by 1922 the hood appears to be painted the body color.

 

I have stripped the car down and the original color appears to be red. My car was featured in the 1963 Antique Automobile magazine Vol 27, #3.

 

 

Peter

 

 

From a 2003 AA post.

Just happened on your site. I am a 84 year old son of a former Chandler-Cleveland Dealer from Pittsburgh,Pa. Was given an assignment from a granddaughter in Harrisburg,Pa. to give her a history of our family dealership.My dad started in 1923selling Chandler and Cleveland.Still remember learning how to drive in our driveway with the traffic transmission and recall the old "pikes peak engine" Just thought I would do some remininiscing about a great car. My Dad sold 15 Red Chandler Coupes to the City of Pgh. in 1925.They were used by all the Battalion Fire Chiefs Ed Sable

Edited July 11, 2023 by PWN (see edit history)

[PWN]

On 7/9/2023 at 10:05 AM, 29 Chandler said:

Peter do you have some original paint left on the body to match or what are you plans for color choice?

Chris, what information do you have on 1922 colors? I did a request a long time ago from the AA library and they had nothing. I know the the Royal Dispatches were rainbow blue in 1919 but can't find any info on colors in 1922. The existing Royals I know of are green, red and blue. My grandfathers account is the only thing that I have to go by, and the fact that the original color of the car appears to be red.

[61polara]

Using a single stage urethane enamel will give you the look you want and will be long lasting as well.  This has a hardener in it like is used in the clear coat to give great durability.  It would be very difficult to tell this from lacquer other than the lack of cracking after several years that you will have with lacquer.

[PWN]

 

 

 

 

 

The color I am using is similar to the Eastern Red.

 

The Murphy Color Samples are representative of the most common colors used on vehicles from 1921 to 1929.

Edited July 11, 2023 by PWN (see edit history)

[PWN]

1 minute ago, 61polara said:

Using a single stage urethane enamel will give you the look you want and will be long lasting as well.  This has a hardener in it like is used in the clear coat to give great durability.  It would be very difficult to tell this from lacquer other than the lack of cracking after several years that you will have with lacquer.

This is the plan. My painter has the ability to adjust shine as well. Maybe tone it down some.

[61polara]

I would not have the painter reduce the gloss of the single stage urethane paint.  That works if you are trying to match old paint on a partial repaint, but on a new paint job, it will age itself through several washes.

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

I like the color you have chosen. Mike

[erichill]

I painted my '48 Harley with single stage Urethane about 15 years ago, and it looks as good today as it did when first finished. Today;s paints, applied to a correctly prepped surface will last for decades.  Assuming you are not using a metallic finish.no need for the clear coat even if you want to color sand and polish which may be over the top on a 1920's car. Be sure to share photos with us. I am still working in my 1919 Chandler 

[PWN]

Ok so I'm sanding the doors. Then they will be delicately sand blasted. 

 

It is going to be a tedious project to sand the body. Is there a chemical that may be easier

 

On another note, one photo shows my grandfather's log of some things he did with the Chandler.

 

The Chrysler Regimental Red paint he used stood out. M-S 90G? 961