The Unrestored Car Appreciation Thread

[Rusty_OToole]

3 hours ago, V16 said:

1936 Packard V12 R/S Coupe

In "Another Thin Man" Nick Charles describes a gambler as driving a $7000 coupe'. A very expensive car for 1939 but it looks like this car. Would a V12 Packard coupe' really cost that much?

[CarNucopia]

Great idea for a thread. It would be cool to have a show with only survivor cars.

 

Here’s my ‘39 LeSalle with less then 27,000 miles.

 

 

[George K]

9 hours ago, alsancle said:

In my advancing years I have really started to appreciate cars that have never been restored.   Some have had paint at some point, and some might have had some light cosmetic work, maybe an engine rebuilt, but I'm talking about cars that have never been fully disassembled.

 

No matter the level of restoration, a restored car is never really the same as the way it left the factory.   Things change.  Little pieces get lost or replaced.

 

This thread is for cars that have never been restored.   I'll start by posting some pictures of my Stearns.  Partially repainted in the 1950s, it is basically original.

 

 

 

 

You’re describing cultivated taste. Every maven comes to the same conclusion that an unrestored object is a rare frozen moment in time. Bravo.

[George K]

Tipo 5 Fiat. It was used by a White Russian officer r WW1.

[Buffalowed Bill]

Thanks for starting the thread. Often the survivor cars go unnoticed at shows where point judging rules. IMO the reason is that many spectators just don't know what they are looking at. I have found that a message board with the story of the car, can make a huge difference towards spectator appreciation. 

[keiser31]

I saw this 1955 Dodge hardtop sitting in the back lot of a gas station east of San Diego numerous times and finally went to check it out. It was all original and even had the clear plastic on the seats from the factory. It had 63,000 miles on it's 270 Red Ram Hemi and I got for a song. It was the proverbial little old lady's car. What a BEAUTIFUL riding car it was. I used to call it Neapolitan because of the three colors like the ice cream.

Edited January 26, 2023 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

   Unrestored you say?😄  Well, someone brought it to the show....

 

   If I had to pick I'd take the '26 Prince of Wales P1 in Ohio....

 

 

[avgwarhawk]

5 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

Thanks for starting the thread. Often the survivor cars go unnoticed at shows where point judging rules. IMO the reason is that many spectators just don't know what they are looking at. I have found that a message board with the story of the car, can make a huge difference towards spectator appreciation. 

Message board definitely makes them stop and take a look.  

[edinmass]

11,000 MILES..........runs and drives great. No, I didn't buy it new........

 

[edinmass]

 

1934 Buick 56C with 66,000 miles. 

 

 

[edinmass]

 

Model J with 37,000 on the clock. One of the most original J's on the road.

 

 

[R Walling]

Original paint and interior (parts re-chromed)

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by R Walling (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

11,000 MILES..........runs and drives great. No, I didn't buy it new........

 

 

What is more unrestored Eddy?  You or the White?

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

Model J with 37,000 on the clock. One of the most original J's on the road.

 

 

 

A great car.  Looks much better sans white walls.

 

 

[alsancle]

I wonder if this has sold yet?  I need somebody to buy it and give it to me.

 

https://www.1916simplex.com/

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

One of the greatest unrestored cars of them all.   The last Duesenberg built for Rudolf Bauer in 1940.

 

 

[JV Puleo]

12 hours ago, George K said:

Tipo 5 Fiat. It was used by a White Russian officer in WW1.

 

General Baron Peter Wrangle, the last of the White Russian leaders to hold out against the Communists. He was evacuated from the Crimea by the British Navy in (I think) 1921 or 22. Whether he had this car with him or acquired it later when in exile is a question. Oddly enough, I once knew someone who would have known as he'd served in Wrangle's bodyguard in Russia in the last years of the Civil War.

 

Wrangle died under very mysterious circumstances and is believed to have been poisoned by an agent of the Cheka.

Edited January 26, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[George K]

A.L.Riker’s 1917 Locomobile Gunboat roadster.

[jerry k]

1928 Marmon 68 Speedster 36,000 miles 3rd owner. 

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, George K said:

A.L.Riker’s 1917 Locomobile Gunboat roadster.

 

George, how many legit gunboats are there?   2 or 3?   Is the Austria Simplex garage car the only one with pipes?

[Walt G]

WONDERFUL thread! thank you. It is a showing of cars that exist like the Period Photos thread does for cars that for the most part do not now  but are presented when new. This is my kind of history. It allows us all to see the details of the cars as made and still retain the original material , paint, plating etc. A visual feast .

[edinmass]

 

I think the term unrestored or maintained is a great title.......as "original" is over used, very abused, and often indicates poor restoration done years ago appearing as factory work. There are too many "original" cars that are past toilets that have been reworked upwards and improved to "original".

[Matt Harwood]

I just had a rather spirited "discussion" with another dealer on Facebook about a car he was listing on eBay as "original" and "survivor" despite being painted, reupholstered, and with a replacement top all done in the '50s, plus a rebuilt engine and freshly powdercoated wheels. When I called him out and said I didn't think that qualified as original, he said, "Well, it looks the part."

 

Older restorations are now taking on the appearance of patina which many people mistake for originality. It's going to be a big problem in coming years.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

@Matt Harwoodlots of original high windshield 30, 31 Deluxe Model A roadsters out there...

[drhach]

There seems to be a really fuzzy line here. It's one thing to put a car in storage and keep the mileage low. It remains "original" and "unrestored". But to really use a car through the years means that things break and must be repaired or replaced. One could say that paint and interior cloth could fall into that camp. Probably both types of cars would be appropriate for this thread. Where's the "restored versus maintained line though? I think most would agree that full disassembly and rebuilding would count as restored. What about just fixing what breaks though; even if that included paint and interior? 

[Walt G]

56 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Older restorations are now taking on the appearance of patina which many people mistake for originality. It's going to be a big problem in coming years.

 

 

Matt, you have the integrity to speak these words and call people out. MOST people do not. (Especially dealers ??). You are a active hobbyist as well , taking your own cars to shows, etc. you make the effort .  I have observed your attitude, etc. for some years, you and Melanie and your family set an example that should be followed by all.

[TAKerry]

I dont think this is an argument that can be won. Even if a clearl definition was instituted, by say the AACA. To me an original unrestored car is one that is presented as it was built. A repaint would disqualify. New interior, dq. New brakes, new fuel lines, new tires, thats fine. I have great respect for cars that fit into that category, maybe one repaint over the last 80 years or so but where is the cuttoff? Is an 'original car' that was repainted in 1950 any different than an original car that was repainted in 2020? To me they are both the same. Once the factory stuff has been covered its no longer original. SO, maybe original unrestored could be further divided into what level of preservation it truly is.

At one time I would use the term 'survivor' until someone made to me a very valid point. Arent all of the cars that are on the show field whether restored to beyond or not 'survivors'? 

[TAKerry]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

I just had a rather spirited "discussion" with another dealer on Facebook about a car he was listing on eBay as "original" and "survivor" despite being painted, reupholstered, and with a replacement top all done in the '50s, plus a rebuilt engine and freshly powdercoated wheels. When I called him out and said I didn't think that qualified as original, he said, "Well, it looks the part."

 

Older restorations are now taking on the appearance of patina which many people mistake for originality. It's going to be a big problem in coming years.

 

 

I was highly involved in showing motorcycles in the AMCA. I would attend multiple swap meets throughout the year. When 'original paint' bikes started to command more money than restored, it was amazing how many were to be found. It became hard to tell which ones were real and which were not. I have been away from there for a few years so I dont know what the current state is. My cousin in law bought an early 60's pu truck that was clearly 'faked patina'. The advertising on the door, faded and missing paint is for an alligator farm (this is in FLA) with an 800 phone no. Im not even sure they had 800 phone no.'s in 1964!! She is insistent on it being an 'original truck' with only an upgraded motor. 

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

I think the term unrestored or maintained is a great title.......as "original" is over used, very abused, and often indicates poor restoration done years ago appearing as factory work. There are too many "original" cars that are past toilets that have been reworked upwards and improved to "original".

 

Ed isn't just another pretty face.  I chose my words carefully.  I didn't say "preservation" or "original" on purpose.   

[60FlatTop]

My Dad pretty much saw these old cars as this:

 

I can still hear him say "What do you want that big ark for?" when I told him about a 1940ish Packard I took a liking to.

 

He was always ready to take me to an old car event once I got the interest. But he spent most of his time looking at Chevies and late 1930's Fords.

 

At some point a person (probably a bit eccentric) declared each of these vehicles worthy of saving.

[alsancle]

Owned for decades by well known collector in the north west this Hisso still has its original paint and interior to go with a rebuilt engine. 

[alsancle]

A forum member was selling this car a few years ago.  It is a 41 New  Yorker business coupe.  Rare as hen's teeth.  

 

 

[SC38dls]

If a car has a rebuilt engine, clutch, brakes and electrical it’s not original as it came out of a factory. Once you replace something it has been changed by definition of replace. My 38 Studebaker has original paint everywhere but the front end I repaired. It’s been thru things you can’t see done but they were still done. The engine, brakes, electrical, trans, clutch and front suspension. Therefore it is far from original. Parts may be considered original like most of the paint. The car is never going to be original again. But it’s still a fun car to drive. 
dave s 

Edited January 26, 2023 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[Porsche 68]

18 hours ago, Scott Bonesteel said:

Always keeping my eye out for things like that, will let you know if I run across one.  Love your coupe!  SMB

Thanks I appreciate it. John

[drhach]

27 minutes ago, SC38dls said:

If a car has a rebuilt engine, clutch, brakes and electrical it’s not original as it came out of a factory. Once you replace something it has been changed by definition of replace. My 38 Studebaker has original paint everywhere but the front end I repaired. It’s been thru things you can’t see done but they were still done. The engine, brakes, electrical, trans, clutch and front suspension. Therefore it is far from original. Parts may be considered original like most of the paint. The car is never going to be original again. But it’s still a fun car to drive. 
dave s 

That seems like a good definition for original. So where's the line between maintained and restored? What parts can and can't be replaced? If you dirve the car long enough, you'll replace everything. Is that a restoration if you do it piece-meal over the course of decades? 

[Brass is Best]

Here are a few. An unrestored original car that looks like new is a rare item. We hunt them. They are hard to find. Most people have no idea what the words unrestored and original mean. Over the years Dad and I have had some 250 top notch unrestored original cars. Original paint, chrome, interiors, trunks, engine bays. Just service work to keep them enjoyable. We have had many more cars with just minimal restoration work performed. 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I think "never been taken apart" is a good start.  

 

A lot of cars fall in middle ground.  We had a nice semi restored or driver quality restoration on a 39 Packard 120, for example.  I would say too much done to call "unrestored" .  Body never off very clean undercarriage, but glass out, doors, fenders off repaint.  New chrome outside and new upholstery on seats.  That's too much restoration, IMO.

 

But a quality repaint, alone especially an older one, with everything else original fits here, IMHO.

 

On mechanicals, if engine and major components are original to the car, a rebuild wouldn't DQ again, in my opinion.  Especially on cars where it was part of maintenance.

 

The other extreme is calling heavy rust, body damage, etc. Patina.  With roots in other collectibles patina means wear but still very attractive, well taken care of.  Field cars are not patina to me, but those original finishes on many cars in this thread define it to me.  No junkers, really have been posted here, a great thread as not every untouched car should stay that way. 

 

 

[Joe in Canada]

6 hours ago, alsancle said:

One of the greatest unrestored cars of them all.   The last Duesenberg built for Rudolf Bauer in 1940.

 

 

I have seen that car in a collection. A very interesting story behind that car and yes it even came with double white walls from the factory that are still on it.  

Edited January 26, 2023 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Just now, Joe in Canada said:

I have seen that car in a collection. A very interesting story behind that car. 

 

The Bahre Collection opens to the public a couple of times a year in Paris Maine.  The house were the museum is was the original home of Hannibal Hamlin the 15th Vice President of the United States.

[SC38dls]

The definition of restored. 
 

past tense: restored; past participle: restored

1. bring back (a previous right, practice, custom, or situation); reinstate.

   "the policy restored confidence in the banking system"

    

   return (someone or something) to a former condition, place, or position.

   • "the effort to restore him tooffice isn't working"
   • repair or renovate (a building, work of art, vehicle, etc.) so as to return it to its original condition.

     "the building has been lovingly restored

      

     if you replace parts on a car it is being restored. So either a car has all of its original parts from the factory or it’s been restored to factory standards. Use a different term if you mean some parts that get worn out are ok to replace but technically you can’t say unrestored. If you want this to be a Wikipedia thread you can say anything you want and claim it is correct. That’s just ridiculous. 
     dave s