Bill Harrah Auctions - 1920 Stutz Roadster

[PMac]

It's a long shot but I was hoping someone may have the Harrah's auction catalogs from 1984, 1985 and 1986 and that there might be a picture of the 1920 Stutz Series H Roadster that was sold out of the collection after Bill passed. I believe that the car was sold in unrestored condition. I now own this car and would like to see what the car looked like before restoration. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Peter

[alsancle]

It is not in the 84 or 86 catalog.

[jrbartlett]

Can you share current photos? I remember these cars clearly from AACA events in the 1960s. There were a couple roadsters here in Texas. 

[John Bloom]

I have a good amount of Harrah publications, photos and data/literature. I’m at the office but I’ll try and check when I get home.  
 

Do you have hard names on previous owners? If we can’t get photos, maybe some of us could get you a previous owner name, who could help with your research. 

 

 

[1937hd45]

I think I have every catalog, finding then may take some time. I went out and inspected the cars one year, they sold at give away prices. 

[charlespetty]

Not in the 1985 catalog either.  I have run across other cars before from Harrah's that did not get sold at any of these 84, 85 or 86 auctions.  I attended the 1986 auction in person.  I noted the sale prices achieved at the 1986 auction in my copy of the catalog.  Each car was pulled up onto the auction platform by a small SUV (Jeep I think) and I clearly remember that the SUV couldn't handle the weight of the Stearns-Knight straight eight up the platform ramp and smoked the clutch. 

[PMac]

Thanks all for your speedy responses. If it was not listed in the 1984 or 1986 catalog then most likely it was sold in the 1985 auction or possibly even sold earlier? I do know that it was purchased by James McCloud with a winning bid of $20,000. James restored the car but later sold the car to Laurence Dorcy of Los Altos CA. The car was then sold on to a Charles Peet of Fort Lauderdale FL. More recently it was owned by DeWayne Ashmead. 

 

Below is a more recent photograph. 

 

[charlespetty]

See my response above-not in the 1985 auction catalog either.

[Robert G. Smits]

Have you contacted the National Automotive Museum in Reno.  I think they received the Harrah automotive records.  Every car was assigned a number when purchased and a file was started including the known history, purchase details and photos.  A brass tag with the identifying number was attached somewhere under the hood.  (I have two)  The file  was expanded regularly during restoration.  I ended up with two Harrah automobiles, one restored and one unrestored.  Neither was sold in the mentioned auctions.  The National Automotive Museum provided great records on both, the latest one was in the mid 90's and was over 20 pages.  I actually went to the 84 auction to purchase a particular car and it was nowhere to be found and showed up at "The Auction" in Las Vagus in 1990.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Robert G. Smits (see edit history)

[oldford]

I have a tattered copy of the "Harrah's Automobile Collection, Special Edition" book that shows in the listing at the back of the book a 1920 Series H Stutz as part of the collection, but no photograph is included.

 

Frank

[PMac]

Thanks again for the great feedback and suggestions. I have reached out to the National Automotive Museum in Reno and will let you know how I get on.

Peter

[1937hd45]

2 hours ago, oldford said:

I have a tattered copy of the "Harrah's Automobile Collection, Special Edition" book that shows in the listing at the back of the book a 1920 Series H Stutz as part of the collection, but no photograph is included.

 

Frank

Thanks Frank, I looked at my copy and that black dot marks it as being sold in the April 8, 1978 auction. 

[West Peterson]

My brother just bought a former Harrah car. They have all the records on every car they owned, and will be happy to make copies of everything. I believe there is a charge for the service.

[alsancle]

What West said.  You can get the file on any car but there is a charge.   Bill Harrah owned roughly 50% of every cool car that existed post 1950.

[1937hd45]

40 minutes ago, alsancle said:

What West said.  You can get the file on any car but there is a charge.   Bill Harrah owned roughly 50% of every cool car that existed post 1950.

That went well with 80% of the PRE 1950 automobiles he owned. 

[PMac]

Thanks for the info. I now know it was sold in the April 8, 1978 auction. Very helpful.

Peter

[alsancle]

8 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

That went well with 80% of the PRE 1950 automobiles he owned. 

What I was trying to say is that any pre-war car that still existed in the 50s he had a good shot at owning.

[1937hd45]

14 minutes ago, alsancle said:

What I was trying to say is that any pre-war car that still existed in the 50s he had a good shot at owning.

I'm so glad I got to see the Harrah collection back in 1973 and again in 1975. Like all collections when driven by the passion of the founder things are at their best. We did a quick walk through of the remains of the collection last August in Reno, just wasn't the same, the magic was gone. 

[oldford]

Yeah, Bob, for those of us that never saw the earlier collection, my visit of two years ago was the high point of my west coast vacation.

 

Frank

[Eldovert]

The 1969 directory (CCCA) does not list a Stutz older than 1926 for Harrah..so he must have bought it after that date.

[Grimy]

4 minutes ago, Eldovert said:

The 1969 directory (CCCA) does not list a Stutz older than 1926 for Harrah..so he must have bought it after that date.

But at that time the oldest car recognized by CCCA was a 1925 model, so any Stutz of prior year manufacture would not have been listed.

[Eldovert]

1 minute ago, Grimy said:

But at that time the oldest car recognized by CCCA was a 1925 model, so any Stutz of prior year manufacture would not have been listed.

Oh yes, I see that now. The list still takes up 2 and a half pages of fine print with that age limit applied!

[wayne sheldon]

19 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

I'm so glad I got to see the Harrah collection back in 1973 and again in 1975. Like all collections when driven by the passion of the founder things are at their best. We did a quick walk through of the remains of the collection last August in Reno, just wasn't the same, the magic was gone. 

 

Yeah Bob. The lovely display upon graveled pads with room for a hundred people to walk around each car, a few marginally relevant pictures or items hanging on the walls. The cars themselves so close, yet somehow so far away. As beautiful as they are? They somehow don't even seem real.

 

You were there in August? My son and his girlfriend took me there to see the museum again on July 31 last year! It was a slightly belated birthday present for me. And I enjoyed it as I have a few times before.

However, I also saw the collection twice while William Harrah was still alive! I was still in high school at the time, once in 1968, the other I think was in 1969. There were over a thousand cars in the collection the first visit, and I believe the count was about 1800 cars in the collection on my second visit. We were visiting family in the area and wandered around the casinos, just looking at the cars on display there one day. And the next day we went out to Sparks Nevada where the real collection and shops were! We spent an hour, looking at just Franklin automobiles! One of nearly every series model Franklin ever built was on display, together in one corner of a huge building! Some of the Franklins were of course on display elsewhere, we had seen a couple of them at casino displays. On the other end of the building were more Packards than I can imagine anywhere else in the world! From a 1903 to a "Packardbaker" (last) were well represented. One building had rows of 1950s so-called classics and low production seldom heard of cars (we only spent a few minutes in there). Another was filled with grand prewar Classic Automobiles! In a corner of one building were about fifty model T Fords! Bill Harrah didn't snub the common cars.

The cars were fairly close together, but spaced well enough to get a good look down the sides, and see the back of the cars on the next isle. And the lighting was very good! No wondering what was hiding in the shadows there.

And we spent the better part of an hour walking along the workshops where we could watch the workers restoring cars. We got to speak with a couple of the workers. And we watched as they prepared a European late 1930s Classic for paint (the bodywork was incredibly well done!). 

 

THAT was a collection!

[1937hd45]

Looking at that group of Horseless Carriages really makes me feel old, sure the cars are old but the restorations are now 50 years old. The huge post cards Harrah printed were great,  bought one for every car I liked. There would be a feature on a new restoration in Car Life or Motor Trend with a detailed history of the car. This Stearns was being reupholstered the last time I was out there. The photos and back grounds were always well done. The 1970's were the Golden Years of the hobby. Bob 

Edited January 5, 2023 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Saw Bill Harrah one time, at Hershey.  He was driving an early and BIG Mercedes thru the flea market. Early 1970's I think.

[31plymouth]

A picture of the Duesenbergs at Harrah's   Mid 70's.   Did he own all of these?   I heard some of the Duesenberg's were on loan.

[30DodgePanel]

After reading some of the responses in this thread, I can't help but wonder why someone hasn't started a "Tell us your Harrahs experience" thread? It can include the auction experiences and the caring of the beauties he had in his collection for those who currently own them. 

 

Obviously some may tend to get boastful (and that's ok, you should be proud of it), but I think it would be good for those of us who came late to the party to remember and experience those glorious days that we may have missed out on, AND I think it is always good to show gratitude to those who came before us who had the foresight to save history in ways that Bill Harrah did while keeping the fire lit for future generations that may have a caretaker approach. 

[Restorer32]

I think everyone who worked at Harrah's, including the guy who swept the floors, opened restoration shops of their own.

[West Peterson]

1 hour ago, 31plymouth said:

A picture of the Duesenbergs at Harrah's   Mid 70's.   Did he own all of these?   I heard some of the Duesenberg's were on loan.

The one in the foreground is the one that Ed Minnie took to Pebble Beach a few years ago, missing Best of Show by one car. First loser, some might say. 🙂. (Ed may force a turd drink down me for saying that. Seriously, the car should have been selected Best of Show.)

 

The car two down from Ed's also was a "First Loser" at Pebble Beach. 

[West Peterson]

I was at one of the Harrah auctions and raised the bid on a Delahaye by $5 grand when I waved to my dad from across the room.

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, 31plymouth said:

A picture of the Duesenbergs at Harrah's   Mid 70's.   Did he own all of these?   I heard some of the Duesenberg's were on loan.

 

One of the cars in this photo is on the lift behind me while I type this........

 

 

Didn't see West's comment till after I posted. It's a great car.

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

 

The other car is regularly used and toured, and was at Pebble last year with 20k miles on the most recent restoration. The 90 year old owner is still driving like his hair is on fire. 

 

 

[Walt G]

2 hours ago, 30DodgePanel said:

I can't help but wonder why someone hasn't started a "Tell us your Harrahs experience" thread?

Oh the stories I could tell - never made it to Reno to see the collection while he was alive, but spend well over a decade each year with him for a week and a lot of other enthusiasts at the annual Franklin club meet in central NY state. Before I bought my Franklin I was handed the keys to one of the cars he brought out from Reno to use for the week. Lot's of stories about that and when he had his gang at his trailers in the Blue field at Hershey. Including a chef who had the chef's hat on and was cooking meals for him and his crew . He even brought his adopted sons to the Franklin event . Paul Larios would attend events with him and Jaro Slovac was one of the guys that drove the trucks to haul the cars.

to many memories , to much information, I did research for them when they were restoring some cars as well. It was the right thing to do and the cars got an authentic restoration - nice fellows to work with and I made so many friendships with his crew- Ralph Dunwoodie among them after he retired , we would exchange information via letter ( pre computer days ) 

Walt

[1937hd45]

Walt, Many of the great cars Henry Austin Clark found would later find their way to the Harrah collection and a world class restoration. It must have been like kid in a candy store walking around the barns on Long Island. Do you have any stories to tell about those days? 

 

Bob 

[keiser31]

I was 16 years old and VERY into old cars (since about 9 years old). My folks and I went out to California from Detroit and stopped by Sparks, Nevada to see the Harrah collection. WOW! I was never so excited, even after attending the Old Car Festivals at Greenfield Village for years. After touring the BIG collection building, we went to see the Packard and Frankiln buildings. I was amazed that out of all of the cars I had at that time (1931 Dodge, 1936 Dodge, 1930 DeSoto, 1926 Chrysler and 1929 Franklin), not one example of any of them was in the collection. I wanted to apply for a job in the restoration department and was told I was too young. Bummer. I will never forget those vehicles that I saw. Absolutely astounding!

[kfle]

The days of Harrah was before my time but as the keeper of Cole Motor Car history and the registry, I ran across this story and have copies of private letters between Bill Harrah and someone he was trying to purchase a 1917 Cole Tourscoupe off of. Apparently he had a hard time finding a Cole for his collection and display.  There was also a 1917 Cole Clover Leaf Roadster that was in a collection that he acquired but it was not in good shape at all and he gave it as a finders fee to his car finder.  Here is the story of that from my records about that car. 

 

'During my first visit Gen. Braund took four hours showing my wife, me and our two year old twins, Aaron and Michael his automobile collection. Many were outside, in barns, fields, woods, small shelters, big airplane hangers (4), etc. There were over 400 cars in all, with many parts and parts cars in this huge collection. He had been the lifelong friend of Bill Harrah, of Harrah’s famous Auto Collection and for many years had been the #1 finder and locator of rare automobiles for Mr. Harrah. He found thousands of automobiles in that timeline & I have heard most of those great stories. The COLE was one of those. He said, he found a large collection in the late 50’s along the Red River, between Minnesota and North Dakota. He bought many of the pieces for Mr. Harrah and Bill gave him the COLE as part of his finders fee. Dick told me, he found a much better COLE for Bill Harrah, thus he was allowed to keep this one. He told me that through the years many of his automobiles came from buying 20 cars, Bill only took 12 and Dick either bought the remaining 8 or Bill allowed him to keep the remaining ones in lieu of finders fee, expenses, etc. I loved the COLE the minute I laid eyes on her. Big, bold, V8 and most unique. I had no idea at the time it was only 1 of 2 known to exist (that came in the late 80’s) but Dick kept telling me this was one of the rarest of his collection. But he had many; 1906 Buick, and early 1900’s Glide, 1907 Thomas Flyer turned on end inside a grain bin (now that was a site), 1912 Cadillac Touring, many teen rare pieces, 1911 Pierce Arrow Roadster, Wacco byplane hanging from the attic roof in his home, the list went on and on. A most interesting man, this General Richard Ivan Braund, and we became friends'

 

 

Here is the picture of the only Cole that Harrah owned in his collection which is the 1917 Cole Tourscoupe.  It was not sold off in all of those auctions and remains in the National museum in Reno.  Harrah purchased it restored and took quite a bit of convincing of the owner to sell it to him.  

[8E45E]

23 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Thanks Frank, I looked at my copy and that black dot marks it as being sold in the April 8, 1978 auction. 

The last Studebaker listed (1294) is in the National Automobile Museum in Reno: https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/forum/your-studebaker-forum/general-studebaker-specific-discussion/42184-next-to-last-studebaker?41166-Next-To-Last-Studebaker=&highlight=harrahs

 

Craig

[JACK M]

I think I heard a story about Bill Harrah showing up in Reno as a kid with little or nothing and rented an abandoned gas station and started a bingo game.

True?

If you are only interested in cars there was plenty, but in the malt shop were huge collections of early slot machines and guns.

There was an upgraded antique bus that gave free rides from Reno out to Sparks.

 

Ahh the old good times.

[Walt G]

20 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Walt, Many of the great cars Henry Austin Clark found would later find their way to the Harrah collection and a world class restoration. It must have been like kid in a candy store walking around the barns on Long Island. Do you have any stories to tell about those days? 

 

Bob 

Yes, I do, and the raccoons that used the parts bins in the truck barn at the back of the museum property as nests to live in . Austin selling the NY to Paris Thomas Flyer to Bill Harrah , as well as a double decker bus that was from the 1940s, ( and got restored by Harrahs with a modern engine as they wanted to use it for transporting visitors) . Add to that the night we raised funds with  the charity dinner that cartoonist Charles Addams and his wife Tee had. ( to raise funds for ARF ( animal relief fund) - Charles was a Bugatti and Aston Martin owner , really cool guy with an absolutely wicked sense of humor. We were all just a bunch of down to earth old car guys. Not titled, elite concours attending types .

Edited January 6, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)

[Aussi John 1]

My father owned a 1921 Stutz KDH in th70s, , he gave it a full ground up restoration, it had been used on a farm in Queensland and had been  chopped into a ute (pickup).