Pierce Arrow molded in Fender headlights

[Gunsmoke]

Saw a post today of edinmass's PA with the ubiquitous "molded in fender" headlights. How were these obviously difficult headlight buckets achieved? Part of a complex pressing? Welded in after pressing? or? Just curious. The answer may explain why others did not go this route.

[61polara]

I have heard that the reason most manufacturers stayed away from fender mounted headlights is because a bump to the fender would put the lights out of alignment and difficult to readjust without repairing the fender.  

[West Peterson]

11 minutes ago, 61polara said:

I have heard that the reason most manufacturers stayed away from fender mounted headlights is because a bump to the fender would put the lights out of alignment and difficult to readjust without repairing the fender.  

Hmmm.... makes sense, but then, all headlights were mounted to fenders at the time. Perhaps the "headlight bar" headlights didn't move as much during more minor "bumps."

[zepher]

Pierce Arrow held the patent on fender mounted headlamps so no other manufacturer could have mounted their headlamps in the fenders until after Pierce Arrow ceased operations in 1938.

 

[Rusty_OToole]

The fender mounted headlights were the idea of Pierce's stylist Herbert Dawley at the request of management to come up with some distinctive feature that would allow one to recognize a Pierce Arrow at a glance.  They had the advantage of giving superior illumination since they were higher and farther apart than normal.

 

They were patented but a patent only lasts 17 years, after that anyone is free to use any patented invention. From memory the Pierce patent dated to 1914  which means it expired in 1931. It was not long afterwards that other cars adopted the fender mounted headlights.

 

The headlight shell was a separate stamping welded onto the fender.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Grimy]

15 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

The headlight shell was a separate stamping welded onto the fender.

All but the first ones--Series 2 (late 1913 through 1914), which were riveted to the fender with rivet heads showing.

 

Great memory, Rusty!  That headlight design was patented May 12, 1914!  (ref.: patent reproduced on p. 30 of Hendry's book)

[West Peterson]

49 minutes ago, zepher said:

Pierce Arrow held the patent on fender mounted headlamps so no other manufacturer could have mounted their headlamps in the fenders until after Pierce Arrow ceased operations in 1938.

 

 

I don't argue the uniqueness of Pierce-Arrow's headlights. But, it's true that most automobile headlights were mounted on the fenders. 

[Buffalowed Bill]

Lead was used to good advantage during the process.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

1 hour ago, zepher said:

Pierce Arrow held the patent on fender mounted headlamps so no other manufacturer could have mounted their headlamps in the fenders until after Pierce Arrow ceased operations in 1938.

 

Willys never got the message in 1933 I guess.

[wayne sheldon]

There was one huge custom car that got a lot more press than production right after 1920 that famously used fender mounted headlamps. The name escapes me at the moment, but as I recall it was in one of Floyd Clymer's books.

There were a few other very low production or prototype cars that tried similar fender headlamps. Even a few after-market accessory companies tried to market retrofit headlamp kits. I have read a few articles saying the Pierce Arrow would quickly jump upon such endeavors and put a stop to them.

One of the few automobile manufacturers to actually offer fender mounted headlamps, and publish sales brochures showing them, was Metz. For 1914, awfully close to just after Pierce Arrow's introduction, and issuance of the patent. They were offered as an option on one specific model, the 1914 "speedster" sport roadster. Some number were built and sold, very few survive. I did see a photo of one at a gathering a few years ago, but do not have a copy of it

 

The following photo was borrowed from a website that had it mislabeled. It is the commonly copied picture from the 1914 sales brochure. It can also be found in one of Floyd Clymer's books.

Not nearly as nice as a Pierce Arrow!

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

The Willys - and Chrysler Airflow with the  headlights beside the grille - came out after the Pierce patent expired in 1931.

Patents only last 17 years. That means you could copy any patent from before 2005. In other words you could make a 2004 cell phone, camera, etc but who would want to buy it?

This does not apply to copyright or trademarks which can go on indefinitely.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

Technically that was correct at the time. Currently technical patents run 20 years and design patents 15.

[leomara]

Did I hear correctly that some Pierce Arrow cars needed to be made without the headlights mounted in the fenders because some state or states would not allow them?

[West Peterson]

It was certainly an option to have regular headlights on a Pierce-Arrow. I've always heard the term "New York Headlights," so perhaps in New York they were not legal? Ed will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

[Dave Henderson]

Just curious,  which headlights do you think make the car look better, the fender mounted ones usually seen, or the conventional headlight arrangement of the era?

[SLDMRossi]

From a recent issue of THE ARROW (Pierce-Arrow Society magazine)

… I Saw the Light …

by

Steven Rossi

 

            With all due respect to Hank Williams and his song from 1948, I think I’ve seen the light, too. Particularly when it comes to Pierce-Arrow. Let me explain…

 

            Automotive history is an inexact science. For as long as the Pierce-Arrow Society has existed, there’s been an old adage that goes like this: New York banned Pierce-Arrow fender-mounted headlights, which is why bracket lamps could be specified instead.  Sometimes the State of New York has been referenced as the evil villain, while there are other instances that refer to New York City as the culprit. Truth be told…I think it’s an old wife’s tale.

 

            So I decided to look into it. In fact, I’ve yet to find any evidence of New York legislation that addressed fender-mounted headlamps. According to the University of Michigan’s Transportation Research Institute, headlight requirements were first established in Massachusetts, in 1915. They primarily stipulated minimal visible distance parameters. After that, the Illuminating Engineering Society (IES) and the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) joined forces to establish standards for the optical performance of the combined output from both headlamps on a vehicle.

 

            As the automobile matured from a curiosity to a commodity (in America, at least), the associated increase in traffic density resulted in a very real concern for annoying…if not dangerous…glare. Particularly, as headlights reflected across what was then flat windshield and side glass (as more closed cars appeared). In 1922, the IES-SAE revised its photometric requirements to better balance increased light output with reduced glare.

 

            This was the time when beam patterns and “seeing light values below the horizontal” began to be considered by the two technical bodies (in their words). Thus…the adoption of fluted lenses, headlight hoods and Tilt-Ray technology. By the mid-1920s, the two-filament bulb was invented, with the low beam shining down and to the right while high was up and to the left.

 

            To quote the Transportation Research Institute, “By the middle of the 1930s many states had lighting regulations intended to control glare. Creative inventors had developed diffusers, intensity reducers, masks, etc., in an attempt to deal with glare. Headlamps were of many different sizes, and the mechanisms for aiming these headlamps were not all reliable. Some involved bending of sheet metal brackets, while others called for moving the bulb position inside a headlamp. All of these attempts only caused state officials to enact more regulations. Lighting engineers, automotive manufacturers, and state officials were all trying to do something to provide better lighting with lower glare.”

 

            There’s no mention of fender-mounted headlamp concerns or limitations in the University of Michigan’s Headlamp History and Harmonization study (see Microsoft Word - UMTRI-98-21 (umich.edu)). Or anywhere else, for that matter. Pierce-Arrow would go on to eliminate the bracket headlamp alternative and production ultimately ceased in 1938.

 

            My contention is that Pierce-Arrow really offered the bracket headlamp option in response to consumer pushback for what was sometimes considered ungainly styling. Being different came with controversy. It’s well known that the Buffalo design team worked hard to improve headlight integration within Pierce fenders…most notably, in 1933. But way before that, they were certainly finessed along the way.

 

            It’s also thought that there may have been those who didn’t want to advertise/boast that they owned/drove such an expensive Pierce-Arrow. Coincidentally, there’s a fair amount of discussion on our pierce-arrow.org/forums that agrees with my opinion. 

 

            Pay particular attention (as but one example) to the fine points of the Series 81 announcement materials which appear in the back of this issue of THE ARROW. The original advertisement on our rear cover quietly calls out that the new-for-1928 model could be had with “Bracket headlamps optional without added cost.” Meanwhile, the MOTOR AGE magazine review claimed the opposite…that “fender head lamps are optional at extra cost.” And showed both a standard five-passenger Brougham with bracket headlights and a seven passenger Sedan with fender lamps.

 

            Here’s what the factory officially said in its Series 81 Data Book (which split the difference): “Pierce-Arrow helmet type bracket headlamps or fender headlamps are optional on all models. The fender headlamps are made in a new hooded design and with more graceful, flowing lines. The new helmet type bracket headlamps are especially pleasing.” And original 81 Sales brochure illustrates both available offerings. No doubt, it must have been a confused conglomeration on the showroom floor.

 

            Obviously, back in the day, Pierce-Arrow outboard, fender headlamps were a contentious issue. So much so that the company obviously went to great lengths to quell concerns from prospective buyers and provide two viable alternatives. Despite the fact that fender lamps would ultimately evolve into the state of the art for all automobiles.

 

            Perhaps, moving the message of “outlawed” headlights was more of a public relations campaign to help save face (which in fact, wasn’t always the prettiest) and arm dealers with an escape route to contend with cantankerous customers. Sorry…no stone throwing or nasty grams, please. But it just doesn’t make sense.

 

            Pierce-Arrow was a dedicated, prestigious New York product. Why would its fender-mounted headlamp be banned on its home turf? Worse yet, the owners of America’s Finest Car were all movers and shakers. Surely…if the Buffalo enterprise was suffering from local bureaucratic malaise, its most influential clientele could have easily been called upon to make amends.   

 

            So somebody please…prove me wrong…and share some period New York statutes that addressed Pierce-Arrow’s fender-mounted headlamps. In the meantime, we’ll leave the light on for ya’…

 

[Restorer32]

I always figured those integral headlights were not very popular 'cause they were ugly,  but that's just my opinion.  No offense to Ed.  I just do not like them.

[sagefinds]

How about the early Briscoe,it had a single headlight mounted in the top of the radiator shell. They were illegal in some states due to insufficient light. Now referred to sometimes as the Cyclops years.

[trimacar]

Personally I really like the fender headlights, very distinctive.  Since all other cars had bracket headlights, it became the norm and what we’re used to.

 

Remember, it was because Pierce had the patent that no other car could have them.  Other companies HAD to use bracket headlights, they had no choice.

 

Had there been no patent, who knows how many cars would have used fender lights.

 

And yes, there were no New York laws banning fender headlights, one of those tales told so often people quote it as fact.  

[Gunsmoke]

Thanks for the good summary of how these were made (welded/riveted) and their interesting history. Not sure just how one could go about "patenting" a shape of a fender? Would Cadillac have been able to patent the early fins/taillight process on their rear fenders? Usually a patent is given for a new mechanism and not a "cosmetic" idea. Regardless, would be interesting to see actual patent filing, and hear of any lawsuits that followed. I'm inclined to think their "ungainly look" to put it mildly, may have made copying unlikely anyway. The gradual integration of lights into fenders and front sheet metal was a streamlining/cost efficiency approach, and not likely any attempt to copy PA's much earlier approach. JMHO. 

[John Kelso]

I too like the fender headlights, passed over a Pierce I really liked because it did not have them.

[Lahti35]

19 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Willys never got the message in 1933 I guess.

Love that car, and the PA headlights also!

[8E45E]

4 hours ago, West Peterson said:

It was certainly an option to have regular headlights on a Pierce-Arrow. I've always heard the term "New York Headlights," so perhaps in New York they were not legal? Ed will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought this got beat to death a couple of years ago.

 

 

Craig

[Mark Wetherbee]

I guess it’s a love them or not thing… I think there’s also some years that are far more attractive than other years. Personally I love the look…

[Gary_Ash]

5 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

Thanks for the good summary of how these were made (welded/riveted) and their interesting history. Not sure just how one could go about "patenting" a shape of a fender? Would Cadillac have been able to patent the early fins/taillight process on their rear fenders? Usually a patent is given for a new mechanism and not a "cosmetic" idea. Regardless, would be interesting to see actual patent filing, and hear of any lawsuits that followed. I'm inclined to think their "ungainly look" to put it mildly, may have made copying unlikely anyway. The gradual integration of lights into fenders and front sheet metal was a streamlining/cost efficiency approach, and not likely any attempt to copy PA's much earlier approach. JMHO. 

Design patents have been around a long time.  They do cover the appearance of an object.  I couldn't find the Pierce-Arrow design patent for the headlights but here is one for the 1947 Studebaker held by Virgil Exner, Sr.  It covered the appearance of the entire car.  So it must be that this design patent kept Ford, GM, and Chrysler from making cars that looked just like a 1947 Studebaker! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[George K]

Headlights! What headlights?

[wayne sheldon]

Studebaker might have done better and survived longer if the other big three had copied them. For a lot of buyers, it was their uniqueness that turned the buyers off. If they had been copied, Studebaker might have been seen more as a leader than as an oddity.

I love Pierce Arrow fender headlamps!

As for other odd headlamp placements? How about Hupmobile from 1911 through 1914?

[TAKerry]

I never really cared for them, but like a lot of 'controversial' design styles I have grown to at least accept/appreciate them. I dont think a PA is a PA without them, however if I were to ever be able to afford one I would def. look for one without the fender mounted lights.

[Rusty_OToole]

Who says other cars did not copy Studebaker? That patent picture of the 47 Stude looks an awful lot like a 49 Chev. Then there was the Tucker with its center mounted headlight that inspired the bullet nose 50 Studebaker and 49  Ford. The low slung Loewy coupe of 1953 pre dated cars like the Thunderbird . They were always copying each other around Detroit.

[prewarnut]

   Here's the Dawley technical patent. He also filed a design patent (#45290). I'm not a patent attorney but with some modifications they probably could have been beaten. If you read the details it can be seen that it might have been circumvented by the bezel design, design of the rear conical shape (he states "trumpet" shape), position on the fender (could mount it higher like a Heine-Velox), etc, etc. Probably the "look" wasn't a strong enough interest for other's to try to emulate. 

 

[Grimy]

8 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

   Here's the Dawley technical patent. He also filed a design patent (#45290). I'm not a patent attorney but with some modifications they probably could have been beaten. If you read the details it can be seen that it might have been circumvented by the bezel design, design of the rear conical shape (he states "trumpet" shape), position on the fender (could mount it higher like a Heine-Velox), etc, etc. Probably the "look" wasn't a strong enough interest for other's to try to emulate. 

 

Thank you.  That's the one I was looking at in Hendry's book.  Note the visible rivets.  That version was used only only Series 2 cars (late 1913 through 1914).  Beginning with Series 3 (1915), the headlights were welded in and leaded for the trumpet shape, which generally remained through 1932.

[edinmass]

13 hours ago, West Peterson said:

It was certainly an option to have regular headlights on a Pierce-Arrow. I've always heard the term "New York Headlights," so perhaps in New York they were not legal? Ed will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

In the world of Pierce Arrow we call them “bracket lights”. Most Pierce guys will pass on a car without fender lamps. I know lots of people consider them ugly/offensive. Having grown up with a Pierce Arrow in the garage since I can remember………they are just a normal thing on them. Certain years and body styles certainly suffer from a cosmetic standpoint…….but to true Pierce collectors they are just “there” and you don’t even see them. As far as New York style lights……..it’s a myth. No state ever forbid or denied a car with fender lights. The term first appears in the 60’s. Most importantly……..”A man who owned a Pierce Arrow envies no one.”

 

Tell me these headlights are unattractive………it’s a stunning car that kicked ass on the show field. We called it the trophy machine. It left countless cars in the dust in competition.

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

The fender mounted headlights were controversial even within the company. Some liked them, some hated them and called them ugly and impractical as they could be knocked out of aim by a dented fender. So at first they were offered as an option. Later the fender mounted jobs became standard and the bracket lights were optional. I don't know for how long, but imagine the bracket lights were not offered after 1932 or thereabouts.

[edinmass]

Rusty…….I have never heard any comment about fender lights in the negative from any “inside” source. As far as going out of alignment……….Pierce fender lights stay where they are aimed………..the other manufacturers lights never stay put…….so I consider them ten times more stable than all others.

[SLDMRossi]

FYI...all of the Patent drawings and the complete Filing supporting verbiage appeared on pages 10-15 of THE ARROW, Series 21 * Model 4. From the Pierce-Arrow Society...

 

SR

[Restorer32]

I just realized why I find the Pierce headlights "ugly".  I am physically handicapped today as the result of a serious traffic accident in 1967.  I was driving a BUG EYED SPRITE ! (Palm slap to forehead). My apologies to Ed.

 

[8E45E]

13 hours ago, Gary_Ash said:

Design patents have been around a long time.  They do cover the appearance of an object.  I couldn't find the Pierce-Arrow design patent for the headlights but here is one for the 1947 Studebaker held by Virgil Exner, Sr.  It covered the appearance of the entire car.  So it must be that this design patent kept Ford, GM, and Chrysler from making cars that looked just like a 1947 Studebaker! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if it was this action by Virgil Exner that got him fired from Raymond Loewy & Associates around the time.    Raymond Loewy didn't appreciate competition from within his own ranks, and wanted ALL the credit for a design.

 

Craig

[Rusty_OToole]

8 hours ago, edinmass said:

Rusty…….I have never heard any comment about fender lights in the negative from any “inside” source. As far as going out of alignment……….Pierce fender lights stay where they are aimed………..the other manufacturers lights never stay put…….so I consider them ten times more stable than all others.

My information comes from Maurice Hendry's Ballantine history of Pierce Arrow from the early seventies.According to him Herbert Dawley was brought in by Colonel Clifton to improve and modernize the appearance of the cars but his efforts were not always appreciated by some of the older more conservative members of the staff. Although, after a time they came around to his way of thinking.

[edinmass]

I know the book, but don't remember reading that. There is a recent book published on Clifton. Interesting guy. Styling certinly suffered from 1921 to 1928........on most of the models. 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Despite the fact that it's a long word, I think that most people are familiar with the meaning of anthropomorphism -- the endowing of human qualities on inanimate objects. I don't, myself, find it valuable when I regard cars, but I have to say that certain Willys autos absolutely looked befuddled and bewildered to me. I don't know how these ever got to market with those headlights: