What steps and products helpful in detailing an engine for a National?

[James Matthews]

I was wondering what steps and products members have found to be helpful in detailing an engine for a National? Thank you for answers.

[Tom Boehm]

I recently used Simple Green to clean the engine bay of my white 1973 Dart. That stuff took decades old dirt off easily with a microfiber rag and a small brush. 

[rocketraider]

Knowledge of the correct colors and finishes is a must. That goes for wiring too.

 

Lacquer thinner and 0000 steel or brass wool will clean decades of grunge off plastic coated wiring. I have no experience with cloth covered wiring but plenty of people here do. It will also work on rubber parts.

 

An assortment of wire and fiber brushes will clean small metal components, and a Dremel or similar tool makes short work of it.

 

The cleaner your underhood is to start, the better results you'll have. Pressure washer is handy. Also use straight Dawn dish soap on greasy crud and agitate it with a stiff nylon parts brush. Spray oven cleaner for really tough stuff, but you have to be careful with fumes, skin contact and overspray. It's a highly concentrated alkali, but it will cut thru baked-on grease and skin.

 

Cheap tin foil combined with good painter's masking tape makes masking easy. Cheap foil bends and conforms to contours. Keep in mind that on some cars, overspray was normal and acceptable on exhaust manifolds, fuel pumps, starters, distributors etc. All depends on what was mounted to the engine before it was installed in the chassis.

 

Above all else, patience. What might look insurmountable at first may turn out to be a relaxing and de-stressing job.

 

Also consider that except on a few really high-end cars, perfection underhood was not an objective. Enough paint to prevent rusting until the car was sold, and in case of engine paint to identify the engine by color, was what the manufacturer aimed for. It IS possible to over-restore a chassis or engine compartment.

[Terry Bond]

13 hours ago, James Matthews said:

I was wondering what steps and products members have found to be helpful in detailing an engine for a National? Thank you for answers.

First step is to understand what it is supposed to look like.  If it's an AACA National you have easy access to judging guidelines on the website.  Factory literature will also give you some clues.  Referencing other nicely restored/detailed vehicles will also help, although just because someone else did it their way doesn't mean it's correct, so do your own research.

 

Understanding what it looked like when new is vital to your success and will help guide your process.  In some cases it might be easier to pull the engine to do it properly and return everything to it's "as new" appearance.  This also enables you to reach areas in the engine compartment you'd otherwise not be able to get to.  I know that sounds "drastic" but a few hours getting the lump out so you can do a thorough job saves a lot of frustration if you leave it in place and try to work around everything.  It isn't that difficult in most cases on earlier cars. 

 

Once you know what your goal should be you can obtain a variety of cleaning agents.  Those recommended are my go-to products (Simple green, Dawn, etc.)  WD-40 works wonders and 4-0 steel wool and bronze wool also work wonders with a little elbow grease.  One of my absolute favorite cleaners is simple denatured alcohol used with microfiber towels or the bronze wool.  This is also a good degreasing agent to wipe everything; down with prior to application of paint. 

 

You'll need a variety of different paints and a good selection is available from Eastwood.  Martin-Seynour paints are the best I've found and they offer a selection of finishes that are amazing.  Paints like cast metal, stainless steel, freshly blasted aluminum, etc provide the right coloring and texture for a super detailed appearance.  You can even get special coatings to restore the finishes on carburetors. 

True, you can easily mask off items using tin foil, painters tape, etc, but for a thorough job some component disassembly might be required.  There is nothing prettier than like-new nuts and bolts.  On the other hand, there is nothing worse than seeing banged up, rust-pitted or "wrenched" nuts and bolts that have just been painted over with silver paint.

 

Make the effort to truly "detail" items.  I've seen many a fine restoration with things like generators, alternators, starters and other components just given a coat of paint-over rust pits, dirt, etc.  Any data plates, tags, or markings need to appear like new.  I've seen many tags on generators, starters and distributors that have been "ruined" by sanding them, removing background black.  Those tags can be restored to like new so it's worth the time and effort to do them properly so they appear like they are fresh from the factory.

 

Understanding something called "good manufacturing practice" will also be essential to guide your detailing process.  Keeping asking yourself "would they have done it like this at the factory when originally assembled?"

 

An item often overlooked is wire terminals.  They should appear like new.  I'm always amazed at how neglected they often are on cars that have allegedly been "detailed" under the hood.  

 

Correct finishes are important, and that includes everything from fender wells to radiator supports, nuts and bolts, even firewall.  Don't forget the under side of the hood also, including latch and hinges. 

 

It's been my experience that more judging points are lost under the hood of a car than almost anyplace else.

 

When you look at an engine compartment does it look new and "crisp" or does it look like a used car?

 

Let us know what you are working on and provide some before and after photos if you can.  This is a great place to share what you are doing.

 

Terry

[EmTee]

Good comments above.  I'll add that this job is one of those where "the closer you look, the more you find"...  I decided to tackle the 'high impact' tasks (i.e., the things that catch your eye) first.  Then, pace yourself.  I 'freshened' the engine compartment of my '64 GP last year.  I worked on it a little at a time over about a 2-month span.  It's easy to get overwhelmed with this task, as it can appear endless.  Keep in mind that if you drive and enjoy the car regularly, perfection is not realistic, nor attainable.  In my case, the underside of the hood and hood jambs along the tops of the fenders were peppered with rust 'dots' showing through the super-thin original paint.  Just cleaning up the hood, adding a reproduction insulation pad (which was missing) and careful cleaning and spot touch-up of the hood jambs made a tremendous difference.  Next, I sanded and repainted the inner fenders and visible portions of the radiator support with satin black Rustoleum.  That was another big incremental improvement.  From there, I went to the next biggest eyesore.  At this point it's not perfect, but certainly is presentable.  This year I'm changing to correct hose clamps and adding a couple of reproduction decals.

 

Oh yeah, another thing that made a big visual impact was adding one of those faux 'tar-top' battery toppers to my modern maintenance-free battery.  I was surprised how convincing that thing is from a couple of feet away.  Taken together, just standing in front of the car, those improvements made a big difference.

 

Here's the 'after' -- I didn't take a 'before' picture...

Edited May 25, 2022 by EmTee
added picture (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

14 hours ago, James Matthews said:

I was wondering what steps and products members have found to be helpful in detailing an engine for a National? Thank you for answers.

What era car?

[James Matthews]

I have a 1981 corvette. I want to thank everyone for their very helpful comments. I have provide a photo.  I attended the GN in Virginia Beach this past weekend and saw how nice and clean the engines were. So, I know I have some work to do. I will start with the above tips. I want to thank everyone for their advice. 

[EmTee]

Your engine compartment doesn't look that bad.  I'd think a good cleaning will get you close to where you want to be.

[Restorer32]

Most important tool is an engine hoist so you can remove the engine and detail the entire engine compartment as well as the engine. 

[edinmass]

18 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Most important tool is an engine hoist so you can remove the engine and detail the entire engine compartment as well as the engine. 

 

The only flaw in this logic, is that it involves actual work.........which 98 percent of people today are unwilling to do. 

 

The engine James posted looks very nice for most drivers...........it's been 25 years since I did one of those like he posted. As far as my opinion........drive it till the wheels fall off, and keep the hood down. I understand pride of ownership.........but in my old age I'm only interested in driving.....let the next guy deal with it. Best of luck with the car...........it looks fine............

[TTR]

6 hours ago, edinmass said:

........drive it till the wheels fall off, and keep the hood down............it looks fine............

With few hundred thousand miles accumulated between all (100+ ?) vintage cars I’ve owned in past 4 decades I wholeheartedly agree, …

… but as you’re probably also aware, the only (or main ?) flaw in this ^^ logic is…

... that 98% of people who buy and own antique/classic/vintage cars don’t buy or own them to actually use them as originally intended, let alone “drive (it) till the wheels fall off”. 😉

[John348]

20 hours ago, James Matthews said:

I have a 1981 corvette. I want to thank everyone for their very helpful comments. I have provide a photo.  I attended the GN in Virginia Beach this past weekend and saw how nice and clean the engines were. So, I know I have some work to do. I will start with the above tips. I want to thank everyone for their advice. 

James the engine compartment on your Corvette looks fine. We had a car entered at the GN this past weekend. One thing to keep in mind is that the majority of the cars on that show field get very little (if any} driving use so the engine detail remains preserved. There are many areas on your vehicle that are inaccessible to clean unless the engine is removed. There are many vacuum lines and electrical connections under the hood that might get disturbed from an aggressive cleaning, you might be looking for more problems then it is worth after the cleaning and detail.

If you are looking to get into the meet/judging end of things then that is another story,

Good luck with your decision.    

[zepher]

I see someone mentioned using oven cleaner on the engine compartment.

A big word of caution is that oven cleaner can and will remove paint from metal.

I've used oven cleaner in a pinch to remove old paint on fender wells before, it works surprisingly well.

[James Matthews]

I want to thank everyone for their comments. Everyone has provide some good advice that I can use. I agree, John348, there are a lot of vacuum lines and wires in the engine bay. They are a big reason why I have not done too much cleaning on the engine.  Zepher, thank you mentioning a word of caution on the oven cleaner. I would not have guess that it would remove paint. 

[John348]

2 hours ago, zepher said:

I see someone mentioned using oven cleaner on the engine compartment.

A big word of caution is that oven cleaner can and will remove paint from metal.

I've used oven cleaner in a pinch to remove old paint on fender wells before, it works surprisingly well.

It can dissolve some plastics as well, I see someone also mentioned lacquer thinner, there is a lot of components under the hood of that car that might not like those type of chemicals, I found starting out with the least aggressive method always worked best for me, Not to mention a spill on the out finish of the car could be a big problem 

Edited May 26, 2022 by John348 (see edit history)

[Grimy]

I've had success with (first) straight Simple Green Automotive, and (second if necessary--or where there's grease or oil) "Oil-Eater," an enzyme- and water-based solvent.  Neither will eat any paint.  Both sometimes require followup with a soaked-in-water-and-wrung-out microfiber towel (to be thrown away afterwards), then drying with another microfiber.

[TAKerry]

Thanks for starting this thread. I was very particular when I put my car together and thought my engine looked pretty good. Then I go to shows and see that my car leaves a lot to be desired. Its not bad but there is just something about it that doesnt pop.

2018-02-22_09-52-43 by Kerry Grubb, on Flickr2018-02-22_09-52-35 by Kerry Grubb, on Flickr

 

2018-02-22_09-52-01 by Kerry Grubb, on Flickr

Constructive criticism welcome.

[Century Eight]

Your engine bay is basically very nice.  I would also caution you on Simple Green. Try it first on an inconspicuous place.  In my experience, as well as Dawn, it can dull any paint.  

 

My go to, if I am not sure, is a little bit of kerosene and a brush, then after a while, water.  

There are also good engine degreasers in a spray can.  If it is very slight grease, car wash soap is a possibility as it will not hurt the paint.  Dish soap is designed for dishes, not car paint.

 

Car wash soap is also environmentally friendly, especially if you have someone looking over your shoulder while they are smoking a cigarette and frowning at your kerosene.

[SC38dls]

1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

Thanks for starting this thread. I was very particular when I put my car together and thought my engine looked pretty good. Then I go to shows and see that my car leaves a lot to be desired. Its not bad but there is just something about it that doesnt pop.

2018-02-22_09-52-43 by Kerry Grubb, on Flickr2018-02-22_09-52-35 by Kerry Grubb, on Flickr

 

2018-02-22_09-52-01 by Kerry Grubb, on Flickr

Constructive criticism welcome.

Kerry, if that is just ok you can come and do my engine any time you want!  Even if you only make it so so instead of just ok. 
dave s 

[JACK M]

I can remember using a real steam cleaner back in the days that I worked at dealerships.

That helped me to learn about ignition systems.

(And to wear old clothes).

[rocketraider]

30 yr ago I wanted a hot water pressure washer so bad I could taste it. Couldn't afford one or justify borrowing to get one.

 

Now it's sometimes all I can do to run my cold water pressure washer! Me arms get noodly after wrangling it a while...☺️

[zepher]

Many, many years ago I used a Hotsy a number of times to clean up engine compartments and bed areas of various large trucks when I used to do construction type work.

It was known to remove paint as well if you weren't careful.

[TAKerry]

I realized after I posted the pics that these were taken before I had the car on the road. I have new plastic bottles (over flow and washer fluid) the air is connected properly to the breather can, and the decals have been added. So, it is a bit better than what shows, however one WEAK point I have always had that really stands out to me is the radiator shroud. It is original to the car. Any ideas on how to make it look better, uniform in colour or even a bit newer than the 45 yo piece that it is? I have seen them painted but that is not correct and does not look quite right.

[JACK M]

1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

Any ideas on how to make it look better,

Dressing of some sort, Armor all?

Or maybe the stuff that is used on tires, or vinyl tops?

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, JACK M said:

Dressing of some sort, Armor all?

Or maybe the stuff that is used on tires, or vinyl tops?

Armor all,  tire dressing and their ilk are spawn of the devil. They collect dirt, look phony, and if you ever need to paint something that was any where near it you will get up close and personal with fish eyes........Bob

[Ed Nieves]

[Laughing Coyote]

7 hours ago, JACK M said:

Dressing of some sort, Armor all?

Found this stuff on Amazon and it works nice. Best dressing I've used. Not greasy and leaves a matte finish and not that trailer park gangster shine. Makes tires a rich black color.

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Laughing Coyote (see edit history)

[Robert Street]

And don’t forget stove black paste to brush on exhaust manifolds with your old tooth brush unless they are already removed and coated 

Robert 

[TAKerry]

I use armor all in my pickup and have used that stuff for years. I have no problems but I know a lot of people talk down on it. However in the case of the radiator shield I think it would not look natural. I will try and find that rubber care product.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Just remember, the standard in judging is how the engine compartment looked when it came from the factory.  So trying to make things shinier then original will not gain you any points, not will it lose you points.  Just unnecessary.  Just make sure you have things clean, paint touched up, rust cleaned, etc.  Clamps, hoses, wiring should be correct.  Too many points are lost in AACA judging due to the unwillingness of some to simply take a little time and make things look presentable.  When a judge sees something not corrected it can lead to a more careful examination.  Just human nature.  You are doing the right thing by being concerned about the presentation at a show.  Good luck.

[SC38dls]

If anyone needs practice cleaning the engine bay, I am more than willing to let you use my 38 to practice on. I will accept even a "so-so" job as stated before. Anything better than that is even better.

dave s 

[edinmass]

4 minutes ago, SC38dls said:

If anyone needs practice cleaning the engine bay, I am more than willing to let you use my 38 to practice on. I will accept even a "so-so" job as stated before. Anything better than that is even better.

dave s 

 

 

We are cleaning up the Packard Custom Dietrich this weekend for it's next show.........anyone who wants to clean a perfectly clean car already please stop by and help. We need tire tread detailers, under car chassis detailers, and chrome polishers.  Figure 60-80 hours of professional detailing for a car that is literally already spotless........it's what we do. Yup, we are nuts. 

[TTR]

35 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

 

We are cleaning up the Packard Custom Dietrich this weekend for it's next show.........anyone who wants to clean a perfectly clean car already please stop by and help. We need tire tread detailers, under car chassis detailers, and chrome polishers.  Figure 60-80 hours of professional detailing for a car that is literally already spotless........it's what we do. Yup, we are nuts. 

What happened to “… it’ looks fine…” and “…. just drive it till the wheels fall off…” ??? 🙄

Edited May 27, 2022 by TTR (see edit history)

[Steve Moskowitz]

1 hour ago, TTR said:

What happened to “… it’ looks fine…” and “…. just drive it till the wheels fall off…” ??? 🙄

That is so good!!    I love it when Ed's words come back to bite him.   I am sure after a few more Scotch's he will have some witty reply!

[SC38dls]

I thought it was Rye Bourbon from the north that gets him feeling good! 
dave s 

[TTR]

1 hour ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

That is so good!!    I love it when Ed's words come back to bite him.   I am sure after a few more Scotch's he will have some witty reply!

It's all in good sport and I'm pretty sure he knows it too, but perhaps I should get busy drinking some 18 y.o. single malt, Reposado Tequila and whatever else they serve around here to get ready for his retort ? 😜

 

 

[Terry Bond]

I've been trying to get them onto real Scotch for a long time without much success. Oh well, that means more for us.

Terry

[rocketraider]

17 minutes ago, Terry Bond said:

I've been trying to get them onto real Scotch for a long time without much success. Oh well, that means more for us.

Terry

Says the gentleman who, for a time, lived where they make the stuff!🥃

 

Rye Bourbon?😦

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

That is so good!!    I love it when Ed's words come back to bite him.   I am sure after a few more Scotch's he will have some witty reply!

 

I’m sober.  It’s not Ed’s car. It’s a work car. This particular one is about as world class as you can get and is still on the show circuit. When the shows are done…….it will get driven hard. About 1/3 of our cars are still new or just on the circuit. 1/3 are super hi point drivers……….and 1/3 are plain drivers. Steve will confirm the “plain” drivers I take care of are still exceptionally nice. I only own one 100 point car myself………which is currently probably only 98 points until we do some clean up. Most of my stuff is driver or original HPOV stuff. But I do have 25k on that 98-100 point Pierce………so, yes I drive them…….long and hard. 
 

My sober witty reply to Steve M? He has more reproduction and aftermarket replacement  parts in him than our cars in the collection do! 😎 So, it’s fair to say Steve is NOT ”strictly stock!” So any car he shows should get mandatory non authentic parts deductions. Maybe I’ll start calling him “Mr - 20 points!”

Edited May 27, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Steve Moskowitz]

You got me, I am far from stock anymore.  Not really worried about dying but rusting out is a possibility.  However, my restorers are keeping me running but the cost of this restoration is mind boggling!   The shop rate for my surgeons is expensive!