Buying a car from a museum?

[Rod L]

What are the pros and cons of buying a car from a museum?

What would you recommend as steps to take should one be purchased?

 

If you know of a thread with these questions having already been asked, please point me in that direction.

 

Rod

[Guest]

The only pro's I can think of are that the vehicle has probably been stored inside since they have had it and it will be visibly presentable if it was on display.  Provenance my be available.

Unless it is a very high profile museum the con's could be endless.  Pieces, major and minor, missing.  Might be a conglomeration of pieces.  Might be safe to roll on to a trailer but maybe not safe to drive, even if it runs.  Provenance may not be true.

 

Some fantastic deals have come from museums and some museum sales should never have happened.

 

Stay safe, be healthy and always remember caveat emptor.  Do your due diligence and Good Luck.

[alsancle]

I like the previous post.  The "cons" are endless and I agree.   At a minimum assume a pretty thorough mechanical restoration.  

[46 woodie]

Questions that I would have is, how long has the car sat without being started, when is the last time the car has been driven and the brakes been used, how long has the gas been in the tank or were the tank and fuel lines drained? Sometimes just sitting can be a cars enemy.

[padgett]

Agree about the best thing you can say about museum cars (and some collections) is they were stored inside.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Rod, it's good that you're asking our thoughts

before taking that leap!  Such a question has been

asked before on our forum, and I'll try to find the

earlier thread 'way down the list from 2 or more

years ago.

 

But the quick answer is:  Most museums do not

maintain their cars.  They are not started, nor driven.

A car from a museum will likely need major work.

People have reported that occasionally, only the 

side of the car visible to viewers has been repainted!

 

To me, a museum would be a source of almost LAST

resort;  but if a car is truly rare, figure that you'll be

doing some work and bid accordingly.

Edited October 13, 2020 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Here is a past thread I located.  I see, Rod,

that you had begun it:

 

 

 

[TAKerry]

Agree with all of the above, however if it is a car that has been donated and the museum is selling, that would propose a whole different aspect. If the museum is reputable they should be able to tell you everything you need to know about the car.

[Rod L]

OK, guys, a bit of a confession here. I had already bought the car but not yet received it (it's on the transport as we speak).

I am probably more interested in what to look out for when it arrives and what maintenance items to perform. Here's what I know so far. It came out of a Museum around 1984 and went into a private collection supposedly after a restoration? I recently was taken on consignment and had the carb rebuilt as well as the ignition system. It was started and I have videos of it both driving and stationary.

i  guess I.m looking for any ideas on what to do to further ensure its roadability?

VIDEOS:

https://youtu.be/OkmayyyjUYQ

https://youtu.be/zBUoJUZgSAY

 

My aplogies

Rod

 

[deaddds]

Just like buying a car from anyone other than your mother or a car you know first hand how it was restored and maintained, I’d have your mechanic assess every system and repair as needed.

[FLYER15015]

Rod,

From your signature block, it looks like you know your way around model "A's", so you should know what to do.

Video's indicate it runs, and stops, so just change all the fluids and drive it.

OR you could ;

Check the tires for age (date code / cracks etc.)

You could pull the pan, just for a look see, if you get sludge on your finger in the drain hole.

You could pull a wheel or two to check the brake linings.

Just depends on what you are going to do with the car..............

 

Mike in Colorado

 

[Matt Harwood]

I'd say you need to fix whatever needs fixing. There's no way to predict what an old car will need and regardless of where they come from, your own judgement is still the only opinion that matters. Be honest with yourself and evaluate the car with a critical eye. If there's a problem with misrepresentation, now is the time to find it and address it with the seller. If you just start using it and later find something critical was wrong that they should have known about, you don't have much recourse months later. You should expect it to need about 40% more than you think and even after it's running, you should check other systems, especially brakes and electrical, even if they outwardly appear to be operating. Don't take chances with safety.

 

Don't worry about what might be wrong, wait until you have the car in your hands and go over everything very carefully and evaluate it with the expectation that a lot of issues will need to be addressed. I wouldn't even trust what the seller told you. I recently bought a fairly expensive Full Classic from another well-known dealer (not my Lincoln, by the way) and that dealer in St. Louis told me that the car was a great runner and a strong tour car that needed nothing. When it showed up, it wouldn't run and the truck driver said they had a guy sitting on the engine pouring gas down the carburetor throat to get it on the trailer. The car needed fuel system, cooling system, brakes, tires, electrical issues, rebuilt starter, rebuilt generator, and a replacement exhaust manifold before it was "a strong tour car" that "needed nothing." Loathe as I am to admit it, most dealers don't know crap about cars and assume that if it turns over and fires, that's "runs great." Bleh.

[Guest]

 I have a car that will someday be donated to a museum. I had no plans to ever drive it so I left out the valves, push rods and flywheel.

 

 Beware of "restored cars"

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Roger Walling said:

I had no plans to ever drive it so I left out the valves, push rods and flywheel.

I think I bought that car's sister back in 1961.  1926 Studebaker with a California top, nice looking.  They wouldn't try to start it inside so pushed it out and on to my trailer.  At home it rolled off.  When I tried to start it I discovered no compression, side cover off and nothing inside.  No pistons, con rods, valves springs etc.  Six weeks later I had it running and sold it.

[hidden_hunter]

Aren't 'museums' also fairly common tax dodge?

[Trulyvintage]

Every Vehicle is different 

 

Every Seller is different 

 

Every Buyer is different 

 

 

Jim

[1937hd45]

Define "Museum".

 

Bob

[PFitz]

Two assumptions about museum cars. One, they are always properly restored, and two, the people who maintain them are experts. Often it's just the opposite.

 

I spent 9 years working in the third largest museum system in the nation. While there were some qualified people, the ones maintaining the collections were not experienced at much more than cataloging and cleaning. 

 

Museums are often strapped for cash, so they can't afford to pay for staff experienced in maintaining their collections. And like  examples above, they have to cut corners somewhere. And often, that shortage of funds leads to the priority being just do enough to make them look good because they will not be driven. Most museums survive with volunteers who are at most hobbyists that have not worked on antique cars for a living. And we've all heard of car museums closing due to lack of income. 

 

A friend in Canada bought a "museum" car. It actually made it about 100 miles before it throw a rod through the side of the engine base. Seemed that since it was only going into a museum no one bothered to bolt up the connecting rod big end bolts properly.  

 

Had a former auto showroom display car come in the shop. After many thousands of dollars of work and parts, it was reliable and safe to drive again. 

 

Museum cars are the gift horse you'd be smart to ALWAYS look in the mouth ! 

 

Paul

Edited October 14, 2020 by PFitz (see edit history)

[zepher]

Sounds to me like a museum car can be taken as a car that has had all the cosmetics done but none of the mechanicals done.

Plan on spending a whole lot of time and money to make a museum car road worthy.

[wayne sheldon]

Many museums, to save a few thousand dollars, will stop taking care of things like automobiles, and put them into very bad storage situations where the damage done to the cars will be many times the money saved. Often, donated items simply disappear, likely sold or given to buddies. How do I know? A good friend used to be a museum administrator. He was "let go" due to budget cuts, and that is what happened to the public owned museum after he was "asked to leave". My friend is a good man, a dedicated hobbyist, and truly cared about the artifacts in the "public's" museum. Higher government administrators had other ideas for the assets.

[TAKerry]

Even if the car is meticulous on the outside for appearance sake, that is still a big hump to overcome during a restoration. I would not mind buying a car that is of at least driver quality exterior and only needing mechanicals. I def would not buy one thinking it is ready for the road. In the past I have bought a lot of antique motorcycles, a couple have come from museums. I am not a mechanic but the first thing I did for every bike was send it to my mechanic for a once over. Some times I had the bike back in a few weeks, others it took a year and a full restoration!!

[BearsFan315]

no matter who or where you get a car always give it a once over !!

and that means everything gets a once over, inside and out !!

[Steve Moskowitz]

My take on this subject is that whether it is a museum, dealer or private party you have to do your homework to make sure you are happy with your purchase.  I hate to see all museums and all museum cars lumped into one category.  Example, the Simeone Museum regularly drives their cars in special events.  I believe the Nethercutt drives their cars every year as well.  There have been some great cars donated to museums for the express purpose of raising money.  Not every museum car is a bad buy!

[Matt Harwood]

The one thing I do with every car I personally buy from any source is put a wrench on every single fastener I can before I start driving it. No matter what its other virtues may be, no matter its condition, no matter who did the restoration or maintained it or how much it has been driven recently, PUT A WRENCH ON EVERY BOLT YOU CAN FIND. You'll be shocked by how many are loose.

Shocked.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

After looking at the videos, bear in mind we are talking Model A Ford here.  I wouldn't discount good advice but I also think you needn't stay up nights with worry.  If you stay up, make it with excitement!  Great body style, and attractive car btw.    Buy the Les Andrews books, and join a Model A club.  Follow the safety inspection checklist in his book to get an idea of priorities.  Car sounds pretty good, seems to shift well.  Understand you hear more in an open car, not a bad thing, just be cognizant of it.  Assume full lube and freshening of fluids is in order.  Join Fordbarn also, but if you want to save time wading through oil, steering box lube, and gearbox, diff arguments pm me and you can get my opinion on all that, fwiw.  🙂😉

 

Car does not look like a neglected museum car, and I like how seller went out of his way to show flaws.  I like the fuse kit better than the shut off arrangement, but I didn't see anything bad under the hood.  Looks like a well maintained, driven A more than a museum refugee to me.

 

Congrats, looks like a lot of car!

[hidden_hunter]

It's probably a bit safer with a model a as well given how well documented they are and parts are plentiful and still made 

[padgett]

One piece of advice: never go sideways at speed into a cornfield with open windows.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

14 hours ago, padgett said:

One piece of advice: never go sideways at speed into a cornfield with open windows.

I remember working in a gas station around age 19 or 20.  We were talking Brit sportscars.  Manager said Triumphs were rollers and recalled towing more than one wrecked TR from "the flats" an area of fields and good sportscar roads, after midnight in the 60s/70s.  No MGs though.  Could the MGB monocouque be more stable, were they simply a bit slower or did TR guys maybe drink more warm beer? 🤔😁  Anyway, I went for the Triumph in the end.  Loved that car...

 

Back to topic, the best way to keep a Model A stable in the turns is invest in good shocks all around.  Expensive but amazing that some guys are running no shocks, dangerous body lean that way!

Edited October 15, 2020 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

On 10/13/2020 at 5:00 PM, Matt Harwood said:

I recently bought a fairly expensive Full Classic from another well-known dealer (not my Lincoln, by the way) and that dealer in St. Louis told me that the car was a great runner and a strong tour car that needed nothing. When it showed up, it wouldn't run and the truck driver said they had a guy sitting on the engine pouring gas down the carburetor throat to get it on the trailer. The car needed fuel system, cooling system, brakes, tires, electrical issues, rebuilt starter, rebuilt generator, and a replacement exhaust manifold before it was "a strong tour car" that "needed nothing." Loathe as I am to admit it, most dealers don't know crap about cars and assume that if it turns over and fires, that's "runs great." Bleh.

Interestingly, I came from the school of AACA touring for the day with your family packed into car out for 8 to 10 hours on the road on a Saturday or Sunday with driveability 1st and all the rest second, though I think people are conditioned to having the dealer sell them roses and sunshine - I tend to be pretty blunt as to issues and some people love it, but scares other people off to have them turn to the dealers of roses and sunshine to get something that they really cannot handle (and most people cannot handle for that matter) - baffling.

 

Unfortunately, that driveability is often fleeting with an owner keeping up on things and then you get a season or two of poor health or ... to have the car sit and ....

 

As to museum cars - many have serious issues and that is why they were parked to begin with.  Other's just have years and years of parked.    The advantage of some too as periodically a really good car got socked away for a near eternity and turns out despite the time/money needed to get on road it has 100% of everything else you are looking for in condition. 

[Matt Harwood]

2 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Interestingly, I came from the school of AACA touring for the day with your family packed into car out for 8 to 10 hours on the road on a Saturday or Sunday with driveability 1st and all the rest second, though I think people are conditioned to having the dealer sell them roses and sunshine - I tend to be pretty blunt as to issues and some people love it, but scares other people off to have them turn to the dealers of roses and sunshine to get something that they really cannot handle (and most people cannot handle for that matter) - baffling.

 

Unfortunately, that driveability is often fleeting with an owner keeping up on things and then you get a season or two of poor health or ... to have the car sit and ....

 

As to museum cars - many have serious issues and that is why they were parked to begin with.  Other's just have years and years of parked.    The advantage of some too as periodically a really good car got socked away for a near eternity and turns out despite the time/money needed to get on road it has 100% of everything else you are looking for in condition. 

 

Can we create a dealer support group? I can't be the only one frustrated and bewildered by this job.

[John_Mereness]

24 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

I remember working in a gas station around age 19 or 20.  We were talking Brit sportscars.  Manager said Triumphs were rollers and recalled towing more than one wrecked TR from "the flats" an area of fields and good sportscar roads, after midnight in the 60s/70s.  No MGs though.  Could the MGB monocouque be more stable, were they simply a bit slower or did TR guys maybe drink more warm beer? 🤔😁  Anyway, I went for the Triumph in the end.  Loved that car...

 

Back to topic, the best way to keep a Model A stable in the turns is invest in good shocks all around.  Expensive but amazing that some guys are running no shocks, dangerous body lean that way!

The flipping stuff was people pushing the car beyond its limits - a Triumph is not all that powered compared to its looks (ie. not a race car).

   

As to general mechanics"  The British cars tended to be a case of not understanding the engineering matched to tons of little tiny parts and all those parts being available via the local auto parts store.  I usually have little to no problem with British cars - just a matter of taking your time and ....

[John_Mereness]

13 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Can we create a dealer support group? I can't be the only one frustrated and bewildered by this job.

Yes, and then we can start a subchapter via the pure pain and aggravation of selling something under the cost of say 20K

[John_Mereness]

16 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Can we create a dealer support group? I can't be the only one frustrated and bewildered by this job.

This is one that baffles me:  This is a lovely car (notice it is boattailed and has a great history) with a great owner who has spent time with it (and my friends have his other cars and love them - LOVE THEM).  He bought a house in NYC and has garage space for one car (a daily driver) and ... So, put it up for sale and it sold literally in 30 minutes - turns out that guy wanted to finance and could not.  Put it up for sale again and ended up with the bottom feeders - they wanted to pay 50 cents on the dollar of a car that had its price already reduced to allow for selling in a week.  Then Covid came and their house is just not moving so it can sit a while longer, so put price to probably 3/4 of what it should be.  And, I can go on and on about the wacky calls.   And, it is a car that should sell in a day. http://www.significantcars.com/cars/1930standard2/

[Pfeil]

                   Buying a car from a museum?

  I worked for a major auto manufacturer. Part of wearing many, many hats was the responsibility of our own company museum. Regular driving and maintenance was on a schedule, drive every two months and service twice a year. We loaned two of our cars to a very large and well known museum in the L.A. area. One day ( because of a project we had going on ) we had the curator over to our facility and I asked him about what kind of maintenance schedule did he have all the cars on. Answer....NONE. Within a week I had the vehicles on loan sent back to us.

  When I think of all the vehicles in that museum, especially the ones in the basement and the cars that were donated in good faith with the owners thinking they had given these cars to the right organization it make me very sad and mad.

  If you buy a vehicle from a museum or a collector ask to see the maintenance schedule the vehicle is on. If they have none or it's not satisfactory don't buy!