ramair Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Yes, did not have time to find a point and click thermometer to confirm temperature , the hot water wasn’t so bad , but the DuPont no 7# acid radiator cleaner did sting a little 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said: Is this starting to get ridiculous or is it just me? 🤣 Keep after it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 It would be interesting to have a temperature sensor on the Radiator outlet. as well as the inlet, to see how much temperature drop the radiator and fan was giving you. Maybe something to consider in the future if radiator performance is still in question. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 As has been said, it doesn't matter how ridiculous it might look. But I think ramair makes an excellent point about safety. Please proceed with caution! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prewarnut Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 I suppose this is why restoration shops are not fond of clients visiting too often... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidAU Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) Keep at it Matt, you'll get there. We are pulling for you. Just a thought though and it may have been mentioned before but I couldn't see it. Are the head gaskets exactly the same as the originals, ie do they have the same size and shape holes for the water to flow through. Some head gaskets have smaller water jacket holes at the front to force the water to the rear of the block and if they are installed backwards the water flow will not get to the rear of the engine and the motor will overheat very quickly. Edited August 31, 2021 by DavidAU (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted August 31, 2021 Author Share Posted August 31, 2021 Houston, we found the problem... No need for any more testing after this. There's obviously not a drop of water being moved by the water pump. The pump and engine are full enough that the pump should be pushing a whole lot of water through it and through the outlet tubes. Temperature skyrocketed again, as it always does because, obviously, the water in the engine isn't going anywhere and just sits there boiling. I'm draining the bucket now--it served its purpose so there's no need for it to sit there leaking all over the shop overnight. Engine was running somewhat poorly because I had to prop the choke open with the little yellow cap so I could walk around and shoot the video. With finer choke adjustment, it runs quite well. Sounds gnarly, but runs well. Oil pressure is all over the place but I figure that's due to poor idle quality. It goes up when it's supposed to, which makes me happy. Water pump comes off tomorrow and I'll get it back to Jim for analysis and repair. Good that I found the problem and it's very solvable. 28 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike "Hubbie" Stearns Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 I think I can speak for all of us that are following your progress. CONGRATS on finding the problem. Great job ! We all hope it will be a quick fix and you’ll be cruising soon. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalef62 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 One by one each problem is solved! Now to find out why it is not pumping water... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bloom Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Fabulous Matt. I am impressed with your persistence. I wonder if when you take the water pump off and hold it in your hands to look at it, if the failure of it is fairly obvious to you before even sending it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Looks like I’ll get my test drive soon! 👍👍👍 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 Great news! Don't want you grumpy when stopping by to say hello in a few weeks at Hershey Matt. 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimm63 Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 How is the pump driven? Could that be the issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramair Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 Matt, I am going to suggest something that I would do now that won’t cost you anything, but could keep you from a big disappointment. I would give it a enema, another words feed it water by either raising that drum above the top of the engine and then you can see how much water expels and how quickly. Remember For every 2.3 feet of elevation equals 1 pound water pressure. You could do the same thing with a garden hose, but you would have to plumb in a valve and a pressure gauge so that you could keep the pressure below 5 pounds. Of the two methods I prefer flow test with drum. I also would flow test radiator, even though you have eliminated it as the problem. My reasoning is that on some projects if there is a 50/50 % chance of something going wrong , 9 out 10 times it will ( Murphy’s improved law). Truthfully I have a similar disappointment involving a Twelve , not a Lincoln and not with overheating. I have not mentioned it before now because I did not think it would be constructive for me to tell you that since I have owned that car my fondest dreams was when the car was not in them. Usually I am thinking about how to fix it, or how to get rid of it or my favorite was to go back in time and unwind the deal. Ultimately I have come to peace with it, I am convinced that the restoration Gods have left this on my doorstep to humble me. you are so close , think how upset you will be if you put another water pump on and the same thing happens, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Tate Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 Ramair, I am not sure what the "enema" would do for the engine, as Matt spent a couple of weeks flushing it with evaporust back in January, 2020. So, if the thought was to confirm there are no blockages or restrictions, that has been done. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramair Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 (edited) I would agree that the odds are 99% that it’s the pump, but it’s like buying insurance , most of us buy it for the 1% of the time when something goes wrong, cost of my proposed insurance plan, two hours time and essentially no materials. What would it prove, possible head gasket alignment issue, a foreign object in the water passage, in the end piece of mind, Edited September 1, 2021 by ramair (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalef62 Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 On 7/24/2021 at 7:12 PM, Matt Harwood said: I spent the day trying to get it to run long enough to do some real tuning and troubleshooting yet it resolutely refused to cooperate. Task one was to replace the upper radiator hose that ruptured yesterday, so I pulled it off and examined the Grimy filter--a little gunk in each one, but not much. That's good, I suppose. Grimy filters are doing their job. If the pump was not working how did the grimy filters get so much crap in them? Maybe there is blockage somewhere??? A back flow after the pump is removed may flush some of the crap out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKB1MCV Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 Another (for what its worth) thing is that any centrifugal pump won't pump air, which I have found out several times to my chagrin. There could be an elusive air bubble in the system. Just tossing it out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB-Buff Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 2 hours ago, dalef62 said: If the pump was not working how did the grimy filters get so much crap in them? Maybe there is blockage somewhere??? A back flow after the pump is removed may flush some of the crap out. I think what you see is when the engine gets so hot the water boils and is forced into the radiator it cools and starts to thermosiphon. There are a few cars do not use water pumps at all and they’re based on a hot water rises cold water doesn’t so it circulates. And this thing is generating a lot of heat so it’s a rather violent event. After a long trip in mine sometimes I’ll pull into the driveway put a fan in front of the radiator in a short time it will cool down because it thermosiphon‘s until the shutters close. Then I don’t have to put a hot car in the shop. Backflushing it wouldn’t hurt but I don’t think there’s anything in it. Matt’s cleaned that puppy pretty good. That engine is going to run fantastic when he’s finished. It’s kind of like Murphy’s Law anything that can happen well and he is just going through a learning experience. But he’s going to know it inside and out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 31 minutes ago, JimKB1MCV said: Another (for what its worth) thing is that any centrifugal pump won't pump air, which I have found out several times to my chagrin. There could be an elusive air bubble in the system. Just tossing it out there. If I read one of Matt’s earlier posts correctly, he has drilled, tapped and installed a plug on the top of the pump to be able to bleed any air out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 Impeller probably looks like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 Well done Matt! That is a major find. While its disappointing to find any problem I bet it felt good to finely have a discovery that could lead to the end of the tunnel. Anxious to see what the autopsy of the pump reveals. The Dyke's Automotive Encyclopedia list is getting shorter! Engine overheating indicated by boiling over: 1. Ignition too retarded (late) 2. want of water 3. circulation defective 4. fan not working 5. pump not working 6. radiator choked up 7. steam lock in pipes 8. mixture too rich. (note that too rich = hot... an engine running hot because it's lean is an old wives tale) 9. Using too much gas 10. Exhaust is "throttled" too much 11. Valve timing is incorrect 12. Muffler choked up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 I agree with ramair! Matt needs to try an enema............a BIG, POWERFUL one. If it doesn’t work, then he can try it on the engine! 😆 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-mman Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 (edited) So thus far I guess we have learned is that thermo-syphon works well on a 1925 Ford, but not on a 1935 (big) Ford. Maybe Henry was right, they should have been kept simple. Not knowing what you will find on the Lincoln, I will relate my personal experience: 1960 Rambler Ambassador, completely restored 100 point type car. Suddenly begins to get hot instantly. Problem: Impeller spinning on shaft of otherwise well rebuilt pump. (supposed to be press on design). Drilled and tapped impeller for set screw The shaft was too hard to drill into, but by grinding a flat spot on it, it gave the set screw something to push against. Reinstall, problem solved. Hoping that maybe yours will be as simple Edited September 2, 2021 by m-mman (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 (edited) Teaching moment, not a thread hijack: Recently I was working on a fantastic world class car. After a few thousand miles on a rebuilt engine, it developed a small oil leak, that while on tour continued to slowly get larger. The smart decision was to monitor it and try to keep it under control while on tour.......which is what I did. Finally got some time to take a peek at it and it was a real head scratcher.........oil was coming out of the distributor base and the TOP of the point plate.....causing a real mess inside the Delco unit and the head of the car, flooding the spark plug sockets with oil. We had oil smell, smoke, misfire, and a potential oil fire in the making. There were no obvious reasons for it.....after looking it over and thinking on it a bit.........and having no reason for what was occurring........it was time to just tear into it and see what we could find. See photo below..........first.........it’s a “J”..........and you can see the oil accumulation in the plug pockets. Edited September 2, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 (edited) Part two: Well, there was no obvious reason for the leak that I could determine. I knew if I reassembled it that even with modern sealer ...........which should NEVER be used on a pre war car.........it would still leak. Things don’t fix themselves, and sealer is NOT a fix.....it’s a band aide at best, and a good opportunity to damage the engine at worst. So I went over to another car and pulled it apart to compare why one car is fine, and the other isn’t.......bingo.........found the problem. Then I went to google images and hunted around for photos for more conformation. Found the problem...........and was amazed at the cause. A factory mistake from 90 years ago. The car has had this oil leak it’s entire life. It was never diagnosed after the car left the factory. While it only had 24k on the clock......this thing had been leaking oil since day one. Here is a photo of what the surface below the distributor is supposed to look like.......an oil catching groove and return oil gallery drain........MISSING from day one. Edited September 2, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 You can see the channel and drain hole were done by hand, and later in the production process it was machine installed. Interestingly, the car I am working on is one of the last of its kind.........and the factory closed within months of its manufacture. There was no one to fix it...........and then the war broke out, parking the car due to fuel restrictions. After the war the car had almost no miles placed on it. So the issue just sat dormant until we started driving it on a regular basis. I don’t like cars with bad habits.......that’s running, steering, stopping, or other “public” issues that people ask you about........such as.......”I smell oil”, your car is leaking, ect,ect,ect. This is a classic example of why it’s difficult to fix 100 year old cars........poor maintenance, no maintenance, tractor mechanics, hacks, idiots..........and just sometimes fixing a problem that has no obvious reason to occur, and simply put.........how was anyone ever expected to be able to figure this out? It was almost impossible.........unless you had the thought and ability to look at another car........how many people have access to two Model J’s at one time.........and think to take two apart to try and fix one? Upon removal it was obvious the part was original to the car...........now I get to play finish the job that the factory didn’t do. The good news.......it’s basically just labor. And I have a 100 percent correct diagnosis. The leak will be fixed when I’m finished. Fact is, every old car has insane issues such as this one.......or multiple issues like Matt is struggling with. Endeavor to persevere.............it takes time, thought, and a bit of luck to get things correct sometimes.........Ed. 9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 (edited) Now to continue with Matt’s overheating issue.........what was the cause of the pump not pumping? We don’t know yet........was it poor workmanship? Parts installed incorrectly? A modification made by the rebuilding guy that was a poor decision? Lack of knowledge of the design and final application of the rebuilder? Improper installation by Matt? Fact is there are ten thousand things that can go wrong on a “simple water pump” rebuild......and let’s face it. It’s possible to cook the engine if a back yard mechanic came across this problem and just drove the car. Think about if the engine wasn’t run on a stand.........and the owner drove the thing ten miles and stuck the thing. I can’t tell you how many people ruin car engines.......because they will just drive it home overheating because they don’t want to pay for a roll back. Restoration and sorting cars are time consuming.......I like to call it the five thousand problem challenge..........fix about five thousand small things, and a few large ones.......and the car is properly sorted. Ten years ago, we did a Pebble Beach restoration on a Pierce. We took three years and plenty of time to do it right the first time......no shortcuts. When finished and during the first five hundred miles of sorting we had over 200 items on our punch list.......over 200. Most were very small, and some were not. None of this is easy, and it’s why so many cars in the hobby just aren’t correct. Edited September 2, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 Quote So the issue just sat dormant until we started driving it on a regular basis. Seldom driven garage or trailer queens remind me of my Son's description of a former girlfriend - "she treats me like crap..... but she looks nice." 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Terry Harper said: Seldom driven garage or trailer queens remind me of my Son's description of a former girlfriend - "she treats me like crap..... but she looks nice." No trailer queens here.........the J in question was driven 952 miles in four days just a few weeks ago. Cars have wheels for a reason. I will never, ever work on any car that isn't driven. It doesn't interest me, and a properly maintained car needs to be started and driven on a regular basis, or it will turn to sxxt. Edited September 2, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prewarnut Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 One thing not discussed is the oil lines and heat exchanger which runs (? is it upstream) of the pump. Could something within this arrangement be blocking the flow and not a problem with the pump itself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 3, 2021 Author Share Posted September 3, 2021 Once again this car has beaten me, leaving me with only questions and frustration. Jim performed the water pump autopsy today and found NOTHING WRONG. Impeller was securely attached to the shaft with a pin, the impeller was facing the correct direction, the shaft was not damaged or snapped. There is absolutely no reason why it should not be moving A LOT of water. So what now? I guess I'll shove the hose into the upper outlets and backflush the engine itself and see how easily water flows through it. Maybe there is a plug or a rag in there that I forgot, but I can't imagine where since there aren't that many holes that I needed to plug. Only one in each side of the block and the crossover that goes through the crankcase. What the hell, Lincoln? What the hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKB1MCV Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 Just for the heck of it, reinstall the pump, plumb your shop water hose into the lower connection and direct the water from the upper connection into your (empty) drum. Start the water flow and when all the air is purged from the engine, run the engine and monitor the discharge water temperature. Lets see what the result of the experiment brings us. Have you verified the flow rate thru the radiator? I think you are close to success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 (edited) "This ain't no Ouija board, boys." [ Percy Shook, 1964] There IS a reason. You will find the same. Just a matter of when. Ben Edited September 4, 2021 by Ben Bruce aka First Born (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 (edited) Yeah I'd test the pump off the engine too just for confirmation. I'd test it on the bench. Put it on the vice, drive it with an electric drill. Use a rubber hose as a coupling. Water supplied to the inlet by a flex hose from your trash can. Hose on the outlet that reaches vertically about 2 feet. Spin the pump, see if water gets ejected like you'd expect. And test the engine for clear water passage.... Edited September 4, 2021 by mike6024 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmhowe Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 From what i have read, pump clearances are critical. The pump may look fine, and all parts may be assembled correctly, but if clearances aren't right, it won't work properly. Maybe that is the problem. However, you are at the point where it appears you have two possibilities: 1) bad pump 2) plugged water stream. I would rig an experiment where I tested the flow rate of the pump, off the engine. Another day of work, but you will at least know; is it pump or plugged engine. For what it is worth, you should know that you have set a new standard for me in sorting out crazy car problems. For me, that has already paid off in sorting out some problems I had long given up on. Thanks for sharing your experiences, and good luck. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 4, 2021 Author Share Posted September 4, 2021 Which way does this impeller rotate to move water? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 (edited) Clockwise. Centrigrugal. It spins, forces water outward direction radially. With a centrifrugal pump, the low pressure inlet is at the center of the pump, near the shaft. The higher pressure is at the outside diameter. You can visualize how those arc-shaped vanes will fling water outward as they spin. Edited September 4, 2021 by mike6024 (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 4, 2021 Author Share Posted September 4, 2021 That's what I thought. I was hoping against hope that perhaps the impeller was backwards. It's not. We're going to rig up a test system and spin the pump and see if it moves water. Shouldn't it have been moving SOMETHING? A trickle? Flow was literally zero. What the heck is going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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