What makes a car rare??

[Gunsmoke]

We had this same type of discussion a couple weeks ago about what does "original" mean? I'm with kfle, look the darn word up in the dictionary, and stop trying to give it some sort of "car only meaning". Rare means rare, original means original, survivor means survivor, and as some one stated above, when some "car salesman" puts these terms into a selling pitch, beware!

[padgett]

Personally I prefer "desirable" to "valuable". Valuable is sometimes not good as Henry Manney bemoaning that his Cobra was getting to valuable to drive (my Judge is getting close). A Bugatti Royale may be valuable and rare but not particularly desirable.

 

BTW if what you want is a Gullwing, Bricklins are not very valuable today.

[Matt Harwood]

57 minutes ago, padgett said:

A Bugatti Royale may be valuable and rare but not particularly desirable.

 

 

[zepher]

Hmm, maybe my work PC is still blocking a script that allows for pictures to post.

Anyway, here is a picture of my beloved Rickenbacker - blemishes and all.

It has the optional brass headlamps with embossed Rickenbacker logo lenses and very 'rare' Hat in the Ring logo tail light lens.

 

[1937hd45]

9 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I agree that rare as a description isn't much help.  There are a number of cars that are rare AND desirable enough that decades later more are being made. And still not usually cheap enough to fit my budget. They are usually cheaper than an original but still quite pricy. Westfields, Caterham's, Ginetta's and several others. 

 

I always have hoped of waking up Christmas morning and finding one of these 1:1 scale model kits under the tree. I guess I am on Santa's naughty list.

 

{Westfield 11}

 

Greg in Canada

Got to do the body work and paint on a real Lotus 11 years ago. I've always thought that body would be a great base for a Bonneville Salts Flats car. Bob 

[1937hd45]

4 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

We had this same type of discussion a couple weeks ago about what does "original" mean? I'm with kfle, look the darn word up in the dictionary, and stop trying to give it some sort of "car only meaning". Rare means rare, original means original, survivor means survivor, and as some one stated above, when some "car salesman" puts these terms into a selling pitch, beware!

 

Please add Cherry and Mint to the discussion, two of my favorite flavors of ice cream.

 

 

Bob 

[alsancle]

10 hours ago, padgett said:

A Bugatti Royale may be valuable and rare but not particularly desirable.

 

 

Why would a Royale not be desirable?   I desire one.

 

Agree with comments on rarity vs desirability.   As a general comment,  whenever I see the world "rare" used to advertise a car I think the seller either has no idea what he's doing or is in full used car sales mode.

[8E45E]

19 hours ago, poci1957 said:

Rare is an overused term for sure, usually associated with a sales pitch to imply value and a bit tiresome for me especially when used to hype a regular production car with unusual equipment. 

 

Yesterday I saw a Marti report on a Lincoln that showed about 5000 units produced but statistically reduced down to a one-of-one that was painted white with both a cassette deck and a garage door opener (I am not making this up).  I think (but am not sure) that the owner saw the absurdity and was good humored about the "honor", Todd C 

I posted another '1 of 1' car here, as per the 'Elite Edition' Marti report: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?104804-Cars-From-Our-Past/page2&highlight=michelin

 

Craig

[8E45E]

6 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

 

Please add Cherry and Mint to the discussion, two of my favorite flavors of ice cream.

Do you own one?  https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/HERITAGE/cherry.html

 

Certain ones might be 'rare' here in North America.

 

Craig

[8E45E]

12 hours ago, poci1957 said:

 

Hmmm......I might try to work that into the conversation.....

 

THEM: "Look at this 1975 Chevy Nova 4dr.  They built 200,000 but now they are very rare, especially with the optional lighted ash tray."

 

ME: "200,000 built but now few remain?  Sounds MEDIUM rare to me."   I LIKE IT, thanks Xander, Todd C   

But the owner of a 1975 Nova 2dr hatchback will brag even MORE about his 'optional ash tray light', stating its a safety feature to go with his 'optional rear tent', so as to prevent a fire, lest he miss the ashtray while smoking in bed.  An 'optional lighted ashtray' could save his life, and his 'rare' 200,000 unit Nova.

 

Craig

Edited February 28, 2019 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Rarity and value change over time. Before the movie Tuckers were not considered very desirable or valuable. Saw one at an early

 pre movie Hershey and the general consensus was "ho-hum another failed auto ". Only after the movie did they become "rare and valuable".

[8E45E]

1 minute ago, Restorer32 said:

Rarity and value change over time. Before the movie Tuckers were not considered very desirable or valuable.

I disagree on that one.  Tuckers have always been valuable, and the movie only elevated public awareness of them; especially non-car enthusiasts.  I remember reading about Tucker mechanic, Bill Hamlin in the early 1970's with a small collection of them, and they weren't exactly inexpensive even then.

 

Craig

[Xander Wildeisen]

 

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

Saw one at an early

 pre movie Hershey and the general consensus was "ho-hum another failed auto ".

 

That statement really rings a bell with me. In all the years I have been hanging around cars the consensus deciders were pretty much "ho-hum" about anything unless they owned it.

Today there are a bunch of 70 and 80 year olds that wouldn't cross the street to look at a 1980's car, but watch if they find one for a bargain price. That same group has been around since the 1960's. They just get replaced by the next group that ages.

[1937hd45]

33 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

That statement really rings a bell with me. In all the years I have been hanging around cars the consensus deciders were pretty much "ho-hum" about anything unless they owned it.

Today there are a bunch of 70 and 80 year olds that wouldn't cross the street to look at a 1980's car, but watch if they find one for a bargain price. That same group has been around since the 1960's. They just get replaced by the next group that ages.

Yes, At 68 I've known good stuff since my first car show in 1961, not that I'd pass on an unwanted late model that I could buy cheap and flip quickly. Bob 

[Akstraw]

from Dictionary-dot-com: 

 

rare: "(of a thing) not found in large numbers and consequently of interest or value."

 

pretty much says it all, imho

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Akstraw (see edit history)

[poci1957]

4 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

Rarity and value change over time. Before the movie Tuckers were not considered very desirable or valuable.....Only after the movie did they become "rare and valuable".

 

I am still trying to figure out how I can get a major motion picture to feature 1957 Pontiacs........

Edited February 28, 2019 by poci1957 (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

Use the medium rare line on them.

[poci1957]

4 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Use the medium rare line on them.

If it works I will remember to get you the royalty payments

Edited February 28, 2019 by poci1957 (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

13 hours ago, zepher said:

Hmm, maybe my work PC is still blocking a script that allows for pictures to post.

Anyway, here is a picture of my beloved Rickenbacker - blemishes and all.

It has the optional brass headlamps with embossed Rickenbacker logo lenses and very 'rare' Hat in the Ring logo tail light lens.

 

 

Don't restore that car!

[Buffalowed Bill]

I really agree with much written here, so I don't know where to start-so why try but.. It seems to me that much of what we are talking about is nothing more then semantics. We are all car people here, and should know how to separate truth vs hyperbole. If someone needs help, the fact that they are reading this thread is proof that they are on the right track

 

Depending on who I'm speaking with, I have used the term because 1) someone needs help in understanding, and the term rare seems to be within his grasp. 2)Or I'm talking to a car person, who I'm confident can parse it out without an explanation. In either case it's nothing more then a starting point, or a short cut, for an enusing  discussion.  In any discussion I need to either back up what I say, with some sort of data, or indicate that what I'm saying is my opinion.

 

At no time do I ever equate rare to valuable. When visitors come to view my collection, I indicate that they can ask me any questions, about any of the cars, except two-how much is it worth? and is it for sale? 

 

Bill

 

 

 

[edinmass]

8 hours ago, 8E45E said:

I disagree on that one.  Tuckers have always been valuable, and the movie only elevated public awareness of them; especially non-car enthusiasts.  I remember reading about Tucker mechanic, Bill Hamlin in the early 1970's with a small collection of them, and they weren't exactly inexpensive even then.

 

Craig

 

 

I passed one up in the late seventies for 3500.00

[1937hd45]

43 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

 

I passed one up in the late seventies for 3500.00

That $3,500 would buy a very attractive car back then. One of my rules of thumb is never buy an ugly car no matter what it's future value may be, looking at an ugly car that is a slow sell just makes the lost working capital that much painful. Bob 

[AlfonzoBigBody]

so would this be rare? https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1990-YUGO-GVC-CONVERTIBLE-138031

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

I do not know if the Yugo is rare. But that is a very honest description. Might explain the low miles.

[padgett]

Was a documented "1 of 1" here a number of years ago, 1969 Bonneville 4 door with 428 and a 4 speed trans. Was too rusty for me so I passed. Some cars you just have to say "why".

 

OTOH I buy cars because like and want to drive them, not as collectibles or to flip

[zepher]

6 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Don't restore that car!

The car is not factory original.

The engine has been redone at least twice (last time about 8 years ago) and the paint and interior were done in the early 80's.

The paint job was not the best and it is showing its age.

So I wouldn't feel I was ruining an original car by giving it a full restoration.

[John_Mereness]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

 

I passed one up in the late seventies for 3500.00

RE: Tucker:  Dad and I passed on one in the very early 1980's - it was somewhere around Dayton Ohio - while on a road trip we stopped into a garage sale with interesting bicycles - it was cut into several parts - a rough rear, a rough roof, a rough floor, 2 door posts, a rough cowl,  two super rough front fenders, and a couple NOS grill parts (he also had an engine he would sell separately but really wanted to keep it) - price I think was like $1,500 or $2,500. We decided  that it was a little too big to turn into a planter in the yard (and that mom would probably not have the same appreciation).  A bunch of people think it became the basis for the "convertible." 

Edited March 1, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

You can divide everybody up in to two buckets:  people that love Tuckers and those that laugh at them.  Which bucket you are in can be used to guess with great precision all the other ideas you have about cars.

[1937hd45]

They pale in comparison to all other vehicles IMO. 

 

 

Bob 

Edited March 1, 2019 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[nick8086]

If it is a prototype car..

 

 

[8E45E]

9 hours ago, alsancle said:

You can divide everybody up in to two buckets:  people that love Tuckers and those that laugh at them.  Which bucket you are in can be used to guess with great precision all the other ideas you have about cars.

I've never met a car enthusiast who has ever laughed at a Tucker.  The only 'laughs' about Tuckers I've ever encountered were from Wall Street-type financiers who are definitely NOT into cars and didn't appreciate/approve of Preston Tucker's methods of raising funds to finance his enterprise.

 

If you want one hell of a good laugh exactly a month early, check out this one!  https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hmn/2010/03/1974-Twentieth-Century-Dale/2951571.html

 

Craig

[alsancle]

Three points:

 

1.  Admittedly subjective, but I see it as the ugliest car of its era.

2.  A mechanical fiasco.   For the most part never usable or reliable until lots of re-engineering.

3.  People pay 1.5 million dollars for an example.

 

It is #3 that causes the laughter and probably some disdain.   If they sold for 50k they would be viewed more as a semi-interesting oddity.

Edited March 1, 2019 by alsancle (see edit history)

[mikewest]

When I was a kid , I was always looking over the Hemmings Motor news and Old cars weekly swap sheets ect ect. for rare and affordable cars.  I remember telling my dad "Its a RARE CAR"  he alsmost always would respond "So are DODO BIRDS, But who cares" Ive had a few really rare cars . One was the only one known.. It was a 1913 Walh touring. It had a Rochester NY made Hazard motor and the car was built in Detroit. Yes it was rare but not very valuable.

[Gunsmoke]

I see a poster boy for the "rare" car in today's Hemming's blog, a great looking 1950 Veritas Convertible ( with BMW drivetrain) coming up for auction soon, so if you have $0.5M to spare, get your wallet out.

[mercer09]

Which bucket you are in can be used to guess with great precision all the other ideas you have about cars.

 

and if you are on the fence like me?

 

huh...........

[1912Staver]

59 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

I see a poster boy for the "rare" car in today's Hemming's blog, a great looking 1950 Veritas Convertible ( with BMW drivetrain) coming up for auction soon, so if you have $0.5M to spare, get your wallet out.

I think it's a reasonable conclusion that serious money cars are generally in the category  of what most of us would consider "rare". And rare being anywhere from one up to a thousand or so built or known survivors. Some exceptions of course but probably not that many. But as we all know rare does not necessarily mean unusually valuable. 

 

Greg in Canada

[1937hd45]

Thank you very much for that tip!!!!! Having just a bit of knowledge on that car made me check the other auction listings. The Don C. Boulton BRASS CAR collection is on the block. What a fantastic bunch of cars in search of new caretakers. Lottery ticket sales should see a bit of a spike in sales. Bob 

Edited March 1, 2019 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[zepher]

59 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

I think it's a reasonable conclusion that serious money cars are generally in the category  of what most of us would consider "rare". And rare being anywhere from one up to a thousand or so built or known survivors. Some exceptions of course but probably not that many. But as we all know rare does not necessarily mean unusually valuable. 

 

Greg in Canada

 

You're right, true rarity does not equal being valuable.

Rickenbacker Motors was only around for 6 years and produced limited numbers of cars so there are only less than 40 total production cars known to exist from all years of production.

I feel they were historically significant because of some of their design features for the time and because of the man, Rickenbacker, himself.

But a fully restored example will only get around $35,000 on the market.

As I mentioned before, most car enthusiasts have never even seen a Rickenbacker in person.

I'm lucky enough to have seen four, including mine - one being a very rare 8 cylinder sedan that was being restored.

[padgett]

Well I like my 88 Reatta coupe, one of only a few with Sunroof. Should be a landmark car since Buick was the first to have a touchscreen in the dash. Might bring $3k on a good day. Reatta 'vert not much more, tried to sell mine for $6k but no takers. Suspect Buick may have given more away than sold.