Selling titles

[Wheelmang]

I hate to be naive but it is what it is. A number of times here and on other sites there have been titles for sale or titles needed. Is this above board and how does it work. I live in Georgia and none of my older vehicles require titles. They all, however, came with titles from out of state purchases.  I doubt that I would "sell" any of the titles in the event that my heirs would be registering or selling outside of Georgia. I am curious how this works though.

Thanks for looking.

Paul

[MCHinson]

While in theory, an antique car title can legally be sold as a collectible item to be framed and hung on a wall, the use of such a title to register a car to which it was not originally issued is illegal. If a title for sale ad is reported to the moderators and it appears to be listed for the purpose of assisiting someone in committing title fraud the ad will be deleted. I am sure there are probably some ads that have not been reported to the moderators that have managed to remain on the site. None of the moderators are specifically reading everything on the site in an effort to police such ads. 

[Matt Harwood]

Owning old titles is not illegal. Selling them is not illegal. Buying them is not illegal. Collecting them all and trading 'em with your friends isn't illegal.

 

Building a fiberglass '32 Ford, buying a '32 Ford title, putting that number on the fake Ford, and registering it as a real '32 Ford is illegal.

 

Buying a car without a title, buying a title for a similar car, removing the numbers from your car and putting the numbers from the title on it is illegal.

 

There's a reason that a title for a 1947 Plymouth sedan costs $5 and the title for a 1934 Ford 3-window coupe costs $1000 and it isn't because the Ford title makes for prettier garage art.

[60FlatTop]

3 hours ago, Wheelmang said:

I live in Georgia and none of my older vehicles require titles. They all, however, came with titles from out of state purchases. 

 

The Georgia DMV should have taken them as proof of ownership when you took legal ownership. In New York State non-title cars use the license registration as proof of ownership. Even though it requires me to insure a car to establish legal ownership, I have licensed every car I bought from a private owner for over the past 10 years.

 

Check into it. Those cars with out of state titles may not actually belong to you.

 

Bernie

[Brass is Best]

The Title and Vin are more important than the car! Always make sure the paperwork is in order.

[Wheelmang]

Hi Bernie. In all four cases DMV was only interested in the bill of sale. All four titles are also signed over to me. Not concerned about them not being mine. You raised a valid point though. Thanks 

[SC38dls]

Some states will remove a title or mark it as invalid if plates are not assigned to it. I sold my 49 Ford F3 pickup to a fellow that was going to redo the whole truck. His check was good and I signed the title over to him. He did not register the change of ownership. We moved within the state and after two years I received notice (the people that purchased our house forwarded it to me) they were deleting the title from the state register. I called the buyer and asked what he had done with the title and he said it was sitting on his desk until he finished the restoration. If he didn’t register it he would have a lot more paper work to go through to get an active title. Because of his delay he had to have me present with ID’s and sign an affidavit saying I had sold him the vehicle. He also had to pay the $3.18 property taxes due. What can I say that’s Kentucky. 

[CarlLaFong]

Everyone goes "Wink Wink" whenever these "historical documents" are offered for sale, "suitable for framing". When someone posts that they need a title for a 37 Chevy pickup or a 28 Ford Tudor, what are the chances that it is for the wall in the ol' man cave? I would guess somewhere around .00001%

[A. Ballard 35R]

7 minutes ago, Wheelmang said:

Hi Bernie. In all four cases DMV was only interested in the bill of sale. All four titles are also signed over to me. Not concerned about them not being mine. You raised a valid point though. Thanks 

 

In the event that you or your heirs ever sells one of the cars to an out of state buyer it will in most instances be necessary to have a title in the name of the owner/seller. Why would you NOT want to have a valid title in your name now?  This situation in common in NH where titles on older cars are not required but can be obtained by applying for one through the DMV. I know of specific cases where an antique car sale was held up due to no NH title.

[Wheelmang]

Well, Mr. Ballard, that is a great point that I had not considered. Guess I will see if the DMV will even issue titles on demand.

[A. Ballard 35R]

I forgot that one common reason people avoid title changes is for tax reasons. I understand that this is why there are a number of antiques with Montana plates.

[46 woodie]

I know that it is illegal, but I can also understand why it's done. In some states such as New York it is almost impossible to register a "barn find" or a car that is assembled from parts. A local guy built a very nice '40 Ford from parts. He started with a body and frame and little else. When he went to register the car the paperwork required drove him crazy. Every trip to the DMV required a different notarized document. Some info was literally impossible to find. After about five or six trips to the DMV someone suggested purchasing a title and that is what he did. It only required sanding off the original numbers located by the front crossmember and stamping in the one on the title. The parts car became the car on the title. 

[victorialynn2]

17 minutes ago, A. Ballard 35R said:

 

In the event that you or your heirs ever sells one of the cars to an out of state buyer it will in most instances be necessary to have a title in the name of the owner/seller. Why would you NOT want to have a valid title in your name now?  This situation in common in NH where titles on older cars are not required but can be obtained by applying for one through the DMV. I know of specific cases where an antique car sale was held up due to no NH title.

I was able to get a Tx title for a car my dad had for 30 years and still had only the NH registration. It acts like a title in Tx. I did have to bring a copy of the NH law and talk to the right person. 

 

Both the resistration and new new title were in my dad’s name. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[hddennis]

My experience with titles is slightly different. Years  ago I purchased a beautiful original Cadillac V16 coupe from California with original title and paperwork from 1940. I sold it to a buyer from an eastern state. His DMV refused to honor the California title. Out of desperation to complete the sale which was 100% legal and proper but held up because two states were having a feud I went to a seller in Alabama who advertised in Hemmings selling titles and he ran my car through his dealership and gave me an Alabama registration and plates and THOSE were honored and completed the sale. Car lost it's legal history all because of bureaucratic BS!!

 

Howard Dennis  

[retiredmechanic74]

Here in SC I did some major restoration work for a guy that when I finished, he all of a sudden didn't have any money, ( I had trusted him because I was under the impression we were "friends") He offered me a 1968 Ford (which I really didn't want) but I took it with title signed and went to the DMV to register it and they refused saying that this was not the owner who signed it. Come to find out that the car was inherited and Jr. signed the title. It took me over a year to get it taken care and "Almost all of the time it took was spent by the DMV" I finely got it straiten out and the DMV fined me $60.00 for not getting it done within the 15 day period for registering.    

[Restorer32]

Remember, there are no cars without titles. They are just "undocumented".

[Brass is Best]

1 hour ago, 46 woodie said:

I know that it is illegal, but I can also understand why it's done. In some states such as New York it is almost impossible to register a "barn find" or a car that is assembled from parts. A local guy built a very nice '40 Ford from parts. He started with a body and frame and little else. When he went to register the car the paperwork required drove him crazy. Every trip to the DMV required a different notarized document. Some info was literally impossible to find. After about five or six trips to the DMV someone suggested purchasing a title and that is what he did. It only required sanding off the original numbers located by the front crossmember and stamping in the one on the title. The parts car became the car on the title. 

 

Which is illegal and why many states do not like NY registrations.

[mercer09]

•  
•  

• Report post
•  
• x
•  #11

Posted 1 hour ago

Well, Mr. Ballard, that is a great point that I had not considered. Guess I will see if the DMV will even issue titles on demand.

 

 

 

No Georgia will never issue a title, nor CT or several other  states. You cant get a title for a pre 1973 car in NY.

 

Some states use titles. Some use registrations and in rare cases, some use both, depending on the year of the vehicle.....

 

so if you think you know everything there is to know about titling, you are most likely wrong. All 50 states have diff titling procedures and dont forget the person you get behind the desk............................. they could just be having a bad day!

[RiKi5156B]

We wouldn’t have so many issues with titles if everyone had a clean title when they sell their car. Seems like the ads always say missing title but easy to get. Will give bill of sale. I’ve talked to my (Washington state) dol and they tell me without the title a BOS is worthless. You can apply for 3 year registration only and get the title at the end but if the last titled owner finds you he/she can legally claim their car back. I know this for a fact cause it cost me $1200 to get the signed title from the original owner who was dead according to the guy I bought the car from!! Who needs this kind of stress? Take the time to go back in record and get your title or research what you are buying. The allure of a good deal may turn out to bite you. A clean title really is good as gold.

[Joe in Canada]

I know when I take a vehicle through customs from the US that I bought they compare the vin and the title to match. So buying the title will not do much good with no vin tag.

Getting an ownership in Ontario is no big deal if you go about it the right way. You can also get a car into Canada with no title also if you know how. A car with no title coming into Canada  as a parts vehicle if there is no motor in it.  

Edited February 5, 2018 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

20 hours ago, CarlLaFong said:

Everyone goes "Wink Wink" whenever these "historical documents" are offered for sale, "suitable for framing". When someone posts that they need a title for a 37 Chevy pickup or a 28 Ford Tudor, what are the chances that it is for the wall in the ol' man cave? I would guess somewhere around .00001%

 

Yes, I think what Carl says is often the case.

Someone may advertise that he has dozens of old titles,

but they are $200 apiece.  If they are just historical documents

to hang on a garage wall--and that would be interesting--

they should be $10 apiece.

 

Actually, old documents can be interesting.  One of our

former members has the original Penna. registration cards

from around 1908-1910 for his 1906 Cadillac.

[39BuickEight]

They should be whatever the market decides they should be.  People pay $200 for things to hang on their wall all the time.

[John_S_in_Penna]

No, they don't---not when someone has hundreds of old titles.

Would we think that a pile of old titles from an old junkyard

is really worth 200 x $200 = $40,000?

 

Since Moderator Matt Hinson has been in law enforcement,

I trust he knows what he's talking about on this subject. 

[JV Puleo]

My state, Rhode Island, does not require a title for any car made before 2001 and WILL NOT issue a title for an older car. It has always astounded me that the nitwits that created this extremely complicated system are unable to print a small handbook for DVM officials so that they can easily find out what the law is in other states. I'm still mildly in shock over the endless runaround I had with Pennsylvania years ago over a title for a 1905 Cadillac. To not accept the paperwork of whatever state the seller is in is a restraint of trade.

Edited February 5, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[46 woodie]

Brass, you make it sound like New York is the only state where some people do this. Well, I remember a huge issue concerning one of the most famous and T.V. show car builders that the state of California shut down and confiscated several cars because of purchased titles. I think you are making a general statement and must realize this has gone on for a long time and is still being done.

[JACK M]

Several years ago I bought a 1956 car from a guy in Georgia.

He tells me that they don't have titles there, just registrations.

The state of Oregon looked up on their computer and issued me a title right away with no problems from the GA registration card.

That car is in Florida now and they accepted the Oregon title but the buyer had to have me send a BOS.

He wanted me to make it out for less than he paid but I refused.

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

3 minutes ago, JACK M said:

He wanted me to make it out for less than he paid but I refused.

 

Good for you!  That's probably another situation that

happens all too often.  We don't like taxes, but they

have been around for hundreds of years, and we

want to, at least, do what's right. 

[JACK M]

5 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

Good for you!  That's probably another situation that

happens all too often.  We don't like taxes, but they

have been around for hundreds of years, and we

want to, at least, do what's right. 

 

I was concerned that it could have some way of coming back to bite me.

Now if he had paid me in cash rather than traceable method, who knows.

Edited February 5, 2018 by JACK M (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

4 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

No, they don't---not when someone has hundreds of old titles.

Would we think that a pile of old titles from an old junkyard

is really worth 200 x $200 = $40,000?

 

Sure they do.  The guy who paid me $250 for an extra grille said he bought it to hang on the wall.  Certainly not rare.  People pay that and more for reproduction signs that aren’t rare.  People pay that for someone else’s taxidermy.  The list goes on and on.

 

I never said they were actually worth $200 each.  I said people pay $200 for things to hang on their wall.  If a seller can get that, great for them.  If they can’t, they will lower the price if they really want to sell them.  I don’t think they’re worth that, but I’m not in the market, so what I think doesn’t really matter.

Edited February 5, 2018 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[bobg1951chevy]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 7:00 AM, Wheelmang said:

I hate to be naive but it is what it is. A number of times here and on other sites there have been titles for sale or titles needed. Is this above board and how does it work. I live in Georgia and none of my older vehicles require titles. They all, however, came with titles from out of state purchases.  I doubt that I would "sell" any of the titles in the event that my heirs would be registering or selling outside of Georgia. I am curious how this works though.

Thanks for looking.

Paul

Paul, I lived in Ellijay, GA, brought my 1951 Chevy to GA from Ohio. 

The '51 had a clear, clean Ohio title, had historic plates, as well.

I transferred the car to a GA registration,  the Ohio title was given back to me, after the DMV COPIED the necessary numbers off the Ohio title.

I actually brought my '51 to the Ellijay DMV ..... the DMV had no interest if I had a '51 Chevy outside or a Sherman Tank.

Today, I still have that Ohio title, but to sell it ....... to falsely represent  the title as ANOTHER  1951 Chevy is a felony, in many states.

Not something I would do.

[61polara]

Let's say you live in GA and have an old car brought in from out of state with a title.  You register it in GA, but decide to sell the title.  It goes to NC and someone uses it to register another vehicle.  You sell your car to someone from NC who goes to register it with the current GA registration and NCDMV comes back and says, sorry, that VIN is already registered here, so you have fraudulent documents.  Registration on your vehicle is frozen and can not be titled in NC or possibly any other state.  This is fictional, but can happen.  

 

NC has become one of the strictest states about old car titles.  All out of state cars older than 1981 require a DMV inspection to verify serial numbers to the title.  Cars newer than 1980 do not require inspection.  There are special internal memos about GA registrations coming into NC.  You must have the last registration card on the GA car, even though in GA a bill of sale will get you a registration in GA.  A GA bill of sale will not get you anything in NC.

 

If you are considering buying a car without a title or current registration and the seller says it's easy to get a title from a bill of sale, tell the seller you will pay him the cost to get the title or current registration.  If he doesn't want to do it, it's not that easy and walk away.

Edited February 6, 2018 by 61polara
Typo (see edit history)

[bobg1951chevy]

1 hour ago, 61polara said:

Let's say you live in GA and have an old car brought in from out of state with a title.  You register it in GA, but decide to sell the title.  It goes to NC and someone uses it to register another vehicle.  You sell your car to someone from NC who goes to register it with the current GA registration and NCDMV comes back and says, sorry, that VIN is already registered here, so you have fraudulent documents.  Registration on your vehicle is frozen and can not be titled in NC or possibly any other state.  This is fictional, but can happen.  

 

NC has become one of the strictest states about old car titles.  All out of state cars older than 1981 require a DMV inspection to verify serial numbers to the title.  Cars newer than 1980 do not require inspection.  There are special internal memos about GA registrations coming into NC.  You must have the last registration card on the GA car, even though in GA a bill of sale will get you a registration in GA.  A GA bill of sale will not get you anything in NC.

 

If you are considering buying a car without a title or current registration and the seller says it's easy to get a title from a bill of sale, tell the seller you will pay him the cost to get the title or current registration.  If he doesn't want to do it, it's not that easy and walk away.

Dave, the NC DMV is now beyond impossible. 

I had quite an ongoing event with the NC DMV ........ not because of a violation  on my part,   but  because the DMV  folks in Raleigh did not understand their own policies.

All is well now,  but it was a struggle to supply all the needed GENERAL MOTORS information, to  defend my position.

[Wheelmang]

12 hours ago, bobg1951chevy said:

Paul, I lived in Ellijay, GA, brought my 1951 Chevy to GA from Ohio. 

The '51 had a clear, clean Ohio title, had historic plates, as well.

I transferred the car to a GA registration,  the Ohio title was given back to me, after the DMV COPIED the necessary numbers off the Ohio title.

I actually brought my '51 to the Ellijay DMV ..... the DMV had no interest if I had a '51 Chevy outside or a Sherman Tank.

Today, I still have that Ohio title, but to sell it ....... to falsely represent  the title as ANOTHER  1951 Chevy is a felony, in many states.

Not something I would do.

I am in Gilmer, county so also go to Ellijay for all transactions. Exact same scenario for all my older vehicles. Titles are from Texas (2), Arizona, Illinois, Minnesota. (Did not realize I had that many miles on my car trailer)  I am, however, going to find out about procuring titles for all my vehicles. They did not even want to license a four wheeler nor where they interested in a title for it. From all of the posting knowledge gained here, titling will add to the future value/saleability of my vehicles. 

Just a note that will likely make some of the posters here a little envious - I have dealt with DMVs in Maine and Massachusetts many many times over the years and can totally relate to some of the frustrating experiences alluded to here. I have got to give credit to the Georgia DMV. In dealings with four different ones in four different counties it has always been  a pleasant transaction. I do not recall ever waiting more than a ten minutes to get to a window. I actually got a phone call once from the head manager of one apologizing because one of the window clerks screwed up. She wanted to know if at my convenience, no rush, I would stop by so she could straighten it out.  Hope those comments didn't just put the kiss of death on future visits but credit where credit is due.  

[Wheelmang]

Not to add more fuel to this fire but - according to a phone discussion a few minutes ago, here is the point of view from the state of Georgia. All my non title vehicles are pre-1960. There was some discussion about 1978 - 1985 having an option to title at the time of registration only and never again afterwards but there was also some confusion on the part of the agent regarding this. I did not go into a discussion on 1960 - 1977.

-The state of Georgia does not issue titles for these vehicles. They take a copy and give the title back to the owner. 

-State of Georgia law is reciprocal with all other states but sounds like some states may require a Notary before accepting a tag receipt on a car purchased from GA. Specifically regarding NC in one part of this conversation . 

There is considerably more detail available on the State web site. But the bottom line sounds like, although there will be some hassle, should take tag/registration receipt from Georgia. Outside the US another whole game. 

 

[46 woodie]

Wouldn't it be great if all the states had the same laws. We are the United States but in reality we are just the "States". Every thing from the discussed Title/Registration issue to gun control, health care benefits and literally hundreds of other laws are different from state to state. We are all taxpayers and for the most part honest citizens, so why can't we all have the same laws. Yes, I know about "States Rights", but it should be all the same for all of us. What gives someone different rights, simply because of where we live.

[A. Ballard 35R]

I love the claim about "reciprocity". Try explaining that to some clerk who doesn't even know the difference between a title number and a VIN.

[Pomeroy41144]

1 hour ago, 46 woodie said:

Wouldn't it be great if all the states had the same laws. We are the United States but in reality we are just the "States". Every thing from the discussed Title/Registration issue to gun control, health care benefits and literally hundreds of other laws are different from state to state. We are all taxpayers and for the most part honest citizens, so why can't we all have the same laws. Yes, I know about "States Rights", but it should be all the same for all of us. What gives someone different rights, simply because of where we live.

 

 

This is why the Articles of Confederation failed in the 18th Century.  And it is "States Rights" only when it suits some folks. 

[JACK M]

My most recent DMV experience.

I sold a car to a guy in Florida, I kept the YOM plates. (YOM in this case was the same plate over several years)

I went to reassign the plates to a different car a few years newer.

It took a few minutes to be sure the plates were no longer in the system as the new owner of the sold car had by now transferred the title.

They assigned the plates to the car requested. (this is a one time registration so plates and registration are good for life) It turns out that the registration fee goes with the plates but I would have to pay for another "special interest" sticker.

The whole thing cost me the dollar for the new sticker.

They didn't make any money on that transaction as it took about a half hour with phone calls to the head office and a couple of whisper talks between the counter person and the supervisor.

 

YUP, I said ONE DOLLAR !!!!

 

I got the new registration and the sticker in yesterdays mail.

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by JACK M (see edit history)

[bobg1951chevy]

4 hours ago, JACK M said:

My most recent DMV experience.

I sold a car to a guy in Florida, I kept the YOM plates. (YOM in this case was the same plate over several years)

I went to reassign the plates to a different car a few years newer.

It took a few minutes to be sure the plates were no longer in the system as the new owner of the sold car had by now transferred the title.

They assigned the plates to the car requested. (this is a one time registration so plates and registration are good for life) It turns out that the registration fee goes with the plates but I would have to pay for another "special interest" sticker.

The whole thing cost me the dollar for the new sticker.

They didn't make any money on that transaction as it took about a half hour with phone calls to the head office and a couple of whisper talks between the counter person and the supervisor.

 

YUP, I said ONE DOLLAR !!!!

 

I got the new registration and the sticker in yesterdays mail.

 

Yes ...... life can be good !

[John_S_in_Penna]

7 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

Wouldn't it be great if all the states had the same laws....

 

That sounds good, but we in Penna. might not want 

some other state's labyrinthine automotive laws!  To protect

everyone from possible tyranny, the federal government's powers

are strictly limited by, and listed in, the U. S. Constitution.

Powers not enumerated there are given to the individual states.

 

For the most part, I'll take Pennsylvania's antique-car-friendly

automotive laws.  They really help the hobby flourish here!