Guest hammer280 Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Hey everyone Well, long story short; I dropped an allen key into the intake manifold on my 1974 Charger big block. I totally forgot about it for a long time. And here's the circumstances. I had just received a brand new Edelbrock 750 cfm carburetor and was excited as hell to put it on. At one point in time something very small required a accordingly small Allen key while I had the old carburetor off --putting the new one on of course-- and then just now remembered that I may have dropped the Allen key into the intake manifold at the time. Mind you, the car has ran and drove several times since then, but it has a hard miss when the accelerator is really stomped on. I've dialed the carburetor in COUNTLESS times and it runs perfectly fine in park. I mean, seriously --no misses, choke ups, grinding, banging, clacking etc-- runs great... But, whenever it's actually driving on the road, it has a big miss (like it's a distributor or fuel problem) at high rpm. So my question would be this : what would be the symptoms of an Allen key either getting lodged at the valve, getting stuck on the top of a piston, or getting lodged in the exhaust manifold? And also, what would the chances be of the Allen key straight getting eaten by the huge wedge of the 440 and just not causing any problems at all? Because, I have straight taken the intake off, sat on top of the motor, and looked for over 2hr in each runner (yea, seriously, this happened and it sucked... No comfortable position whilst sitting on the top of an engine) to see if the Allen key would be obviously sitting on top of the valve, or get wedged and not enter the combustion chamber. But, I cannot find a d*** thing. So, just give me some input on what you think I should do, because this car was inherited and I would be devastated if something catastrophic happened to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Man up and pull the heads off....OR, if you know someone who has a bore scope to look in each cylinder for damage, including pistons and walls. Not that bad of a job to pull heads to get a proper look....especially if you will own it forever 10 minutes ago, hammer280 said: I would be devastated if something catastrophic happened to it. 11 minutes ago, hammer280 said: I may have dropped the Allen key Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hammer280 Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I really feel like more problems would arise if I took the heads off. And it's not like it's that easy.... Or is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 28 minutes ago, hammer280 said: I really feel like more problems would arise if I took the heads off. And it's not like it's that easy.... Or is it? One good piece of advice about asking a web question...is to wait for more opinions, to decide what should be done. on another note; if you drag raced this car for profit at a track, the person would pull the heads to know for sure. Being that you have driven it hard since, the odds are very much in your favor that nothing is wrong, if you don't pull the heads. If you were going across country on vacation? the tow would cost a couple thousand if it broke, and lots more if a shop rebuilt it while you jet back home to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhd58 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I can't see how an allen wrench in the intake will not get sucked into and between a valve and head. Even worse scenario is it actually is small enough to go into the cylinder where it will rattle around until it gets just right as to get pinned between the piston on the up stroke and the head. and God only knows what will happen when the wrench snaps into pieces with sharp pointy edges and keeps getting banged around by the piston. Find someone with a bore scope and look down the intake and into each cylinder. If that's not possible, I believe I'd be tearing it down just to feel satisfied I wont be destroying a good engine. The cost will surely be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hammer280 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 31 minutes ago, F&J said: One good piece of advice about asking a web question...is to wait for more opinions, to decide what should be done. on another note; if you drag raced this car for profit at a track, the person would pull the heads to know for sure. Being that you have driven it hard since, the odds are very much in your favor that nothing is wrong, if you don't pull the heads. 24 minutes ago, edhd58 said: I can't see how an allen wrench in the intake will not get sucked into and between a valve and head. Even worse scenario is it actually is small enough to go into the cylinder where it will rattle around until it gets just right as to get pinned between the piston on the up stroke and the head. and God only knows what will happen when the wrench snaps into pieces with sharp pointy edges and keeps getting banged around by the piston. Find someone with a bore scope and look down the intake and into each cylinder. If that's not possible, I believe I'd be tearing it down just to feel satisfied I wont be destroying a good engine. The cost will surely be worth it. If you were going across country on vacation? the tow would cost a couple thousand if it broke, and lots more if a shop rebuilt it while you jet back home to wait. well these are two very different responses 31 minutes ago, F&J said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 How big or small is the Allen key? Will it fit down the intake ports of the heads? My guess would be that it is still in one of the inlet ports of the cylinder heads and has not passed an inlet valve, which would explain the trouble free operation of the engine. So, remove the inlet manifold only at this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 One can only hope and pray that it's still in the intake, perhaps wedged in place... First, remove intake and check it. If it's there, make a contribution to the religious institution of your choice! :-) If it's not in the intake, then use the borescope. Don't run the engine in the meantime. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hammer280 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 6 minutes ago, maok said: How big or small is the Allen key? Will it fit down the intake ports of the heads? My guess would be that it is still in one of the inlet ports of the cylinder heads and has not passed an inlet valve, which would explain the trouble free operation of the engine. So, remove the inlet manifold only at this stage. It was a pretty small allen key and the question of it fitting down the intake inlets is very questionable because it wasn't in there when I checked, unless it is wedges in one of the inlets that is towards the center of the block. Because once the intake manifold is removed, its very easy to see about 320 out of 360 degrees of the runners all the way down to the valve seat....And I could reach that part with my middle finger (longest finger obviously) and never felt a thing after about 45 minutes of doing this sitting on top of the motor. Maybe the beast just ate it and pooped it out? Does anyone think that this might be a possibility? (lmao; "pooped it out" like it ate a full meal or something XDDD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 If it got into a cylinder while the engine was running, you'd know it. I don't think it's gone past a valve, which would have been bent or otherwise damaged and you'd have a leaky valve that would be spitting combustion fire up through the intake, missing like crazy, and making a wheezing sound at idle. I personally do not believe it made it into a cylinder. My first plan of attack would be to pull the carburetor and get a heavy-duty magnet on a telescoping handle from the auto parts store and go fishing in the intake. The intake is aluminum, so finding the steel key should be relatively easy. It may get hung up on the valves or other steel fasteners in there, but perhaps you'll get lucky and hook the key and pull it out. That's step one. Step two is, as maok says, to pull the intake. Not necessarily the heads, but the intake. At that point you can check all the intake ports for damage, look at the valve stems (if there was an allen key bouncing around in there, at least one of them will be chewed up), and hopefully find the key. Step three is pull the heads and check everything else. It's a suck job, but not that tough. As someone said up above, there are guys who do it in an afternoon at the track and have the car running before they go home. If you don't find the allen key under step one and step two, it's probably worth pulling the heads just for peace of mind at this point. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I don't see how it would be possible to go through an intake valve without getting caught and bending the valve. If you do a compression test and all cylinders are good (no bent valves) I doubt you dropped it down the intake in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hammer280 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 7 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: If it got into a cylinder while the engine was running, you'd know it. I don't think it's gone past a valve, which would have been bent or otherwise damaged and you'd have a leaky valve that would be spitting combustion fire up through the intake, missing like crazy, and making a wheezing sound at idle. I personally do not believe it made it into a cylinder. My first plan of attack would be to pull the carburetor and get a heavy-duty magnet on a telescoping handle from the auto parts store and go fishing in the intake. The intake is aluminum, so finding the steel key should be relatively easy. It may get hung up on the valves or other steel fasteners in there, but perhaps you'll get lucky and hook the key and pull it out. That's step one. Step two is, as maok says, to pull the intake. Not necessarily the heads, but the intake. At that point you can check all the intake ports for damage, look at the valve stems (if there was an allen key bouncing around in there, at least one of them will be chewed up), and hopefully find the key. Step three is pull the heads and check everything else. It's a suck job, but not that tough. As someone said up above, there are guys who do it in an afternoon at the track and have the car running before they go home. If you don't find the allen key under step one and step two, it's probably worth pulling the heads just for peace of mind at this point. Good luck! Well I already did everything up to step 3 and there was absolutely no sign of any damage or any allen key for that matter, lol. So, maybe it literally just munched on it without a problem. It was a quite small allen key, and it also runs without any problems (as i said in the OP) except for when it is at high RPMs in drive and not neutral so that leads me to believe the problem with that is either in the carburetor tuning or the distributor. If there were an Allen key stuck in a valve somewhere, it would run terrible at all times if I'm not wrong... Right? & along side of that, the runners have no damage like I said, and no obvious damage on the valves. But, maybe just for "peace of mind" like Matt said, I may just pull the heads and do a real rundown of this issue. Or just a compression test because my friend has a tester... I do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhd58 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 okay guys lets start over. he has taken the intake off, looked down the beast and seen nothing. Quote "Because, I have straight taken the intake off, sat on top of the motor, and looked for over 2hr in each runner (yea, seriously, this happened and it sucked... No comfortable position whilst sitting on the top of an engine) to see if the Allen key would be obviously sitting on top of the valve, or get wedged and not enter the combustion chamber. But, I cannot find a d*** thing." unquote now i don't know much abut flat 8s so i find a pic on Ebay. it looks to me like anything in the intake is on a downhill run to the cylinder. Let me know if i am wrong. Depending on the size of the wrench couldn't it easily get partially into a cylinder without getting all the way in? Now, back to his statement. He cant find a thing in any runners? What else could be causing these same symptoms, since he has had the intake off and looked in both and cant find anything anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) Sorry, I missed the part about already pulling the intake. At this point, are you sure it actually went down the intake? I just can't see how an allen key, even a little one, could get past a valve that's opening and closing 400 times a minute at idle and thousands of times a minute on the road. If it got to the valve, it would HAVE to do some damage that you could see. At the very least, the seat would be damaged and the valve would be tweeted a little bit, and that would show up pretty quickly. A compression test and a leakdown test would be good ideas at this point--if there's a damaged valve, it'll leak. Ed, it's not a flathead, it's a '74 383 or 440, I believe. Edited July 7, 2016 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hammer280 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 6 minutes ago, edhd58 said: okay guys lets start over. he has taken the intake off, looked down the beast and seen nothing. Quote "Because, I have straight taken the intake off, sat on top of the motor, and looked for over 2hr in each runner (yea, seriously, this happened and it sucked... No comfortable position whilst sitting on the top of an engine) to see if the Allen key would be obviously sitting on top of the valve, or get wedged and not enter the combustion chamber. But, I cannot find a d*** thing." unquote now i don't know much abut flat 8s so i find a pic on Ebay. it looks to me like anything in the intake is on a downhill run to the cylinder. Let me know if i am wrong. Depending on the size of the wrench couldn't it easily get partially into a cylinder without getting all the way in? Now, back to his statement. He cant find a thing in any runners? What else could be causing these same symptoms, since he has had the intake off and looked in both and cant find anything anywhere? Thanks you for your reply and this is basically exactly what I was trying to ask in the first place, but of course it got a little tangled up along side of my description of the problem.... Thank you for your post, again. & I really hope someone can answer this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hammer280 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 1 minute ago, Matt Harwood said: Sorry, I missed the part about already pulling the intake. At this point, are you sure it actually went down the intake? I just can't see how an allen key, even a little one, could get past a valve that's opening and closing 400 times a minute at idle and thousands of times a minute on the road. If it got to the valve, it would HAVE to do some damage that you could see. At the very least, the seat would be damaged and the valve would be tweeted a little bit, and that would show up pretty quickly. A compression test and a leakdown test would be good ideas at this point--if there's a damaged valve, it'll leak. Well the thing is, I am 100% positive I dropped it down the intake plenum when I was installing my new carburetor. But, the thing is --as embarrassing as this is to say-- I was quite drunk when I was putting it on. But, I know for sure I never got that b-word out and I also know for sure that it was an absolutely tiny Allen key. But, I completely agree with this: Quote can't see how an allen key, even a little one, could get past a valve that's opening and closing 400 times a minute at idle and thousands of times a minute on the road But, the thing is this: the car runs perfectly fine in neutral. And it drives great when it's in drive (except for when the throttle is absolutely stomped to the floor) and has no ticking, clanking, or any bad engine noise at all! But, just to mention along side of the "stomping on it in drive" problem ; when I stomp on it in neutral it does phenomenal and has zero problems. Sounds like a big block mopar should. So that's what leads me to believe that it's more of a carb problem than a problem with that Allen key..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Thanks for adding some clarity with regard to how this situation arose in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Years ago, my brother was drilling new holes in the hood of a Jenson-Healy to install an original hood emblem and broke the drill bit. A few months later it showed up in the top of the piston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Yeah, this isn't really the dumbest thing ever, by the way. Don't feel badly. When I was a kid, I was working for a car restorer and we were called out to a client's house where his 1929 Packard wouldn't start. We show up and the first thing we do is hit the starter. Nothing. A click, but the engine doesn't turn. Check battery, all good. We try to bump start it by rolling it down the driveway, and when we pop the clutch, the rear wheels lock up. Get some guys to push, get a little more speed, and it does the same thing, although the skid marks are a little longer this time. Talk to owner and ask what led to this situation, because it should at least turn. "Well, I was just trying to install this horn and was drilling a hole in the block for the mounting bracket and the drill bit broke off." Holy craps! Not only had the drill bit broken off in the block, but he had drilled right into a piston and THEN broke it off. You know how hard drill bits are. Engine is 100% dead and in need of an expensive rebuild. And that's how he ended up with his Packard on the lawn at Pebble Beach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hammer280 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 19 minutes ago, mike6024 said: Thanks for adding some clarity with regard to how this situation arose in the first place. ???? 19 minutes ago, 61polara said: Years ago, my brother was drilling new holes in the hood of a Jenson-Healy to install an original hood emblem and broke the drill bit. A few months later it showed up in the top of the piston. Lol that's kind of helpful? Kind of makes me lean towards taking the heads off.... 12 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: Yeah, this isn't really the dumbest thing ever, by the way. Don't feel badly. When I was a kid, I was working for a car restorer and we were called out to a client's house where his 1929 Packard wouldn't start. We show up and the first thing we do is hit the starter. Nothing. A click, but the engine doesn't turn. Check battery, all good. We try to bump start it by rolling it down the driveway, and when we pop the clutch, the rear wheels lock up. Get some guys to push, get a little more speed, and it does the same thing, although the skid marks are a little longer this time. Talk to owner and ask what led to this situation, because it should at least turn. "Well, I was just trying to install this horn and was drilling a hole in the block for the mounting bracket and the drill bit broke off." Holy craps! Not only had the drill bit broken off in the block, but he had drilled right into a piston and THEN broke it off. You know how hard drill bits are. Engine is 100% dead and in need of an expensive rebuild. And that's how he ended up with his Packard on the lawn at Pebble Beach. LOLOLOLOLOLOL Well, after about 2 minutes of mind boggling to make up a really sadistic joke about this, I realized that my problem isn't nearly as bad as it could be.... But, does anyone think that the motor could've just literally obliterated the allen key and just made it part of the combustion process (LOLOLOLOL) ? Because, I mean, it's literally been months since I dropped that b*** in there... And the engine never ran any differently before & after. I'm not trying to call anyone on some BS or anything, but me and my Dad (the original owner who put the 440 in it in the first place ) think that it's not either in the engine anymore or just in a position where it's not causing any problems. And he drove it himself after about 35yr (after the allen key was dropped in the intake) and said it ran better than it ever has.... So any input????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Oh for cryin' out loud! This thread is making me crazy!!!! First, don't expect sound advice from anyone who hasn't ever rebuilt an engine. They are only guessing. Your first stop should have been to your local machine shop for advice before firing the engine but that's all behind you now. I spent years as a GM heavy line tech (in layman's term that means engine & transmission). There is NO WAY the allen wrench made it through the valve. Consider this: On fire up, if the engine only ran at 800 RPM that means the valves also opened and closed 800 times in the first minute or approximately 130 times in the first 10 seconds. Faster and more precise than any jackhammer. Now consider what more than likely happened on start up: The engine was revved up to 3,000 RPM, which means the valves opened and closed 3,000 times or 500 times in the first 10 seconds. Anything attempting travel through the narrow valve opening would be hit hundreds of times in just that small area smashing it and the valve to pieces. There would be no doubt about it passing through the valve. I have seen the results of pieces, parts, etc. having been dropped down the carb, making their way into the intake runner and then someone firing the engine in the hopes that it would "just clear itself out." It NEVER worked. It took, at minimum, the valve and seat out every single time. Sometimes much worse, piston and even cylinder walls. I would venture, with all certainty, that your allen wrench did not get into your intake, but rather got hung up in the carb or perhaps didn't even get into the carb in the first place but fell somewhere else. It happens. Me? I would have ceased all work until the wretched little tool had been found, (which I have done) but that's all academic now. You've not only run the car but run it hard since this mishap. I'd look elsewhere for your high speed miss. Good luck, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hammer280 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, GregLaR said: Oh for cryin' out loud! This thread is making me crazy!!!! First, don't expect sound advice from anyone who hasn't ever rebuilt an engine. They are only guessing. Your first stop should have been to your local machine shop for advice before firing the engine but that's all behind you now. I spent years as a GM heavy line tech (in layman's term that means engine & transmission). There is NO WAY the allen wrench made it through the valve. Consider this: On fire up, if the engine only ran at 800 RPM that means the valves also opened and closed 800 times in the first minute or approximately 130 times in the first 10 seconds. Faster and more precise than any jackhammer. Now consider what more than likely happened on start up: The engine was revved up to 3,000 RPM, which means the valves opened and closed 3,000 times or 500 times in the first 10 seconds. Anything attempting travel through the narrow valve opening would be hit hundreds of times in just that small area smashing it and the valve to pieces. There would be no doubt about it passing through the valve. I have seen the results of pieces, parts, etc. having been dropped down the carb, making their way into the intake runner and then someone firing the engine in the hopes that it would "just clear itself out." It NEVER worked. It took, at minimum, the valve and seat out every single time. Sometimes much worse, piston and even cylinder walls. I would venture, with all certainty, that your allen wrench did not get into your intake, but rather got hung up in the carb or perhaps didn't even get into the carb in the first place but fell somewhere else. It happens. Me? I would have ceased all work until the wretched little tool had been found, (which I have done) but that's all academic now. You've not only run the car but run it hard since this mishap. I'd look elsewhere for your high speed miss. Good luck, Greg Carburetor was not even on though man. and don't come at me with an attitude pls. My friends have already done that for you. But, how would you explain the engine running great at all times except while it's in drive at high RPMs ? Because I can mash the throttle while it's in neutral and the engine just begs for more. Which is why I want to put an Offenhouser manifold on it and dual quads... But, that's for another post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Did you spend as much time looking into the intake manifold as the head runners ? It might still be in the intake manifold. Agree, if it made it into a valve you would know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hammer280 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Just now, padgett said: Did you spend as much time looking into the intake manifold as the head runners ? It might still be in the intake manifold. Agree, if it made it into a valve you would know it. Yes definitely. Like I said, I was sitting on top of the engine with the intake off (and dont worry I only weigh about 115 lbs) looking inside the head runners for this b***. That was where I took the most time looking. When I took the intake off, I of course stared for a good 30min through all the runners. And those b***es are quite wide & there was nothing. So it's either stuck in the inner head or melted on the ground from outside the intake manifold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 10 minutes ago, GregLaR said: Oh for cryin' out loud! This thread is making me crazy!!!! First, don't expect sound advice from anyone who hasn't ever rebuilt an engine. They are only guessing. Before you assume you are the ONLY qualified person to answer.....the first person that replied was an ASE mechanic for decades. And you are totally wrong that an object cannot pass a valve and seat without ruining either. I have seen it. And if you "rebuilt" so many engines, surely you must have seen at least one piston in your long career, that had old battle damage from ingesting an object. To end that debate we need to hear from a life long engine machinist...they will surely confirm seeing old damage on piston tops, on engines that still ran fine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 If you can remember, what were the dimensions of this Allen key? ie. length and height? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) Hey, I'm a big boy. Over the years I've heard and given much criticism, get over it. If you live long enough in this game, you will too. And before any of you think my post was a little too direct, RE-READ THE OP's THREAD TITLE! hammer280, No attitude intended. Like I said, I've seen this type of thing many times, it happens to novices and top flight techs. My concern was more about some of the advice you were getting. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. Even me. I have been inside a couple thousand engines over my career. More than most here so, while there are qualified opinions here, I believe my is certainly qualified. C'mon guys, it's the car world. It ain't PC and it ain't always what you want it to be. Edited July 7, 2016 by Guest (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 The OP isn't looking for advice. He is looking for confirmation of his belief that the engine simply ate that hardened Allen wrench and will cause no further harm. We all know the only sensible course of action is a tear down of the engine. It's up to him to take our advice or not 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Ok, I guy who gave himself the name, Hammer, and writes about full throttle acceleration would, obviously, just wait until something broke and look for it during the imminent repair. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amphicar BUYER Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Bore-o-scope for your phone is only $40... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimm63 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 One thing I have learned over my years of attendance at the school of hard knocks, where pain is the headmaster. You can fiddle and diddle for hours/days/weeks with this type of thing, or just suck it up and yank the heads and know for sure. Absent your thinking that something fell in, I would be looking hard at the ignition as the source of the miss. Good luck, and let us know what you find. Zimm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjamin j Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 so I was just thinking that if it was a harbor freight allen wrench it probably dissolved when gas fumes hit it. But seriously a soft steal tool the size of a 2mm or even a 3mm allen wrench could have been chopped up into little bits and shot out the exhaust without doing much if any to valve or seat. As long as the allen wrench was soft steal. A compression test is the easiest way to check. A lighted scope or mini cam will show the top of a piston which would be the softest part in the engine and that would show if anything ever went through that cylinder. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 There is some good advise here and if the owner is to lazy to at minimum pull the heads he isn't listening. Certainly possible that the item has passed thru but he is asking for confirmation. Which can not be given until he pulls the engine down. I am one of those guys that has pulled engines down at the track with some success. This is not the best conditions at a dirt track, so the luxury of being at his own shop should not pose much of a problem with yanking the thing apart. So my bottom line is either run it or tear it down and quit being so lazy. Sorry, but that's my take. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I owned a boat dealership for many years and this is a similar situation to one of my pet peeves. A customer will call up and ask what is wrong with his boat engine. It cant be fixed over the phone and he cant hold it close enough to the phone for me to see it. These forums are filled with well meaning guys that will offer up the best advice that they can. However they cant fix any problems over the web, just give advice. And for free like the guy with his boat is asking for. With all that in mind the forum will be a better place to seek advice as the guys on here aren't trying to make a living, they are fellow enthusiasts that are offering up free advice. You can take that advice or you can pass on it. Several suggestions have been made here and there is no way that anybody can confirm or deny that the part in question has passed thru a valve or not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 We took one of the heads off a newly purchased '33 Cadillav V-12 we were commissioned to bring back to life and found large shards of glass on top of one piston, way too large to pass thru a valve or thru a spark plug hole. No idea how that got there but we suspect sabotage (or extreme carelessness) by a previous owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Jack M , I agree. One of my pet peeves is , after getting advice, the person argues the point. Put up or shut up. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlLaFong Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) 16 hours ago, edhd58 said: 16 hours ago, edhd58 said: 16 hours ago, edhd58 said: Let's take this one point at a time. He removed the intake and spent several hours, looking in each port for the offending Allen key. Nothing was found. Next point. Is he sure that he dropped the key into the manifold? Evidently, he is sure that he did. Next, can an Allen key pass through an intake port and valve? Unlikely, given the shape of the tool and the geometry around the port/valve area and the amount of valve lift. Moving on, if the key did, somehow, make it's way into the combustion chamber, would this be a benign occurrence? Almost without question, very bad things would happen. It would punch a hole in the piston crown, the busted and bent remains would hammer the entire area until it looked like the surface of the moon and, probably, bend or break the exhaust valve as the wadded up key finally decided to get the hell out of there. Helen Keller would have heard the engine trying to destroy itself..So, dumb question to an idiot alert. Did he look inside of the intake manifold for the key?? I would assume that he did, but we all know about assume. BTW, I don't know why all of that edhd58 stuff is showing up, but disregard Edited July 7, 2016 by CarlLaFong (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akstraw Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I like the borescope idea. You might be able to visually inspect just about everywhere you think it might be, and re-assure yourself it is not there. Also was thinking about probing around with a magnet to see if you can pick it up. Just be sure the magnet (like the one you can buy on a telescoping rod) is securely fastened, or you may be hunting around for a lost magnet next. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 6 hours ago, benjamin j said: so I was just thinking that if it was a harbor freight allen wrench it probably dissolved when gas fumes hit it. But seriously a soft steal tool the size of a 2mm or even a 3mm allen wrench could have been chopped up into little bits and shot out the exhaust without doing much if any to valve or seat. As long as the allen wrench was soft steal. A compression test is the easiest way to check. A lighted scope or mini cam will show the top of a piston which would be the softest part in the engine and that would show if anything ever went through that cylinder. Allen wrenches are made of tool steel hardened and tempered to a tough spring steel state. Chopping one up is no easy feat. That said, no easy or even correct answer will be found here to the OP's predicament...............Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 You sure the allen wrench isn't in the toolbox were it belongs? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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