Three known to exist

[bob duffer]

Found this on E-bay .. Are there really only 3 known to exist ?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buick-Other-Series-90-Model-96S-CCCA-FULL-CLASSIC-/391409460023?forcerrptr=true&hash=item5b21d26337:g:ke8AAOSwFMZWsTBF&item=391409460023

[keiser31]

As stated many times on this forum, there is really no way to determine how many of a certain production car exist (aside from noted cars like Duesenberg and Tucker where the amount built was low and we have kept track of most of them).

[Joe in Canada]

Keiser31 is absolutely right with his statement  and how it should be stated is ( I only know of three ).  Every one does not have their car listed in a club registry so how can you really tell. I would say that the number of cars that exist is right up there with people calling a car a classic.

[Frank Wilkie]

so, if one more is found  does this lower the value price of this car?      

[bob duffer]

I think people use words and phrases to lure more people into spending more money, and thinking they have a one of a kind.

[keiser31]

47 minutes ago, Frank Wilkie said:

so, if one more is found  does this lower the value price of this car?      

Probably not.

[keiser31]

38 minutes ago, bob duffer said:

I think people use words and phrases to lure more people into spending more money, and thinking they have a one of a kind.

Yep. When I was a kid, I used to say that there were only four known 1931 Dodge Brothers business coupes registered in the USA. I was way off since I had no idea there may have been more out there that were hidden or just not registered. Now that we have the internet, we can get a better overall view of just what is out there, still existing.

[John_S_in_Penna]

This nice-looking Classic Buick was for sale on our own

AACA Forum a few months ago, in the Buick buy-sell category.

 

Not long after, it was marked sold;  but it evidently wasn't

purchased by a hobbyist.  It simply went to another dealer.

 

This shows that some cars can go from dealer to dealer to dealer

(with some auction appearances mixed in), before they truly sell.

[K8096]

Does the 3 include the one in Ohio?   

[wayne sheldon]

Many years ago, I had a 1925 Studebaker coach. In the course of Studebaker meets I met a fellow that had two '25 Duplex Phaetons. He loved to brag that there were only five left in the world, and he owned two of them. The problem was, I personally knew of seven of them. But that never stopped him. He continued to make the same claim for several years.

 

That Buick is probably a lot more rare than a Studebaker Duplex Phaeton. Could be only three of them. Could be more than a dozen like it. The CCCA accepts a lot more cars now than they did thirty years ago. Several top of the line Buicks do qualify now, whereas there was only ONE (Smith) Buick that was accepted back about 1970. That particular model Buick MAY qualify, I don't know without doing some serious research. You would do better to check that directly with the CCCA director in charge of such things.

 

The fact is, that MOST cars are NOT listed on any club rosters. 

[Dave Henderson]

Suffice it to say it's rare, the largest series Buick in the depths of the depression.  Production was 586.

[Paul Dobbin]

In this hobby, we have to learn to ignore the obvious "mis-statements".

"Totally restored 1932 Ford with fiberglass body, chopped top, jaguar suspension, Corvette engine, custom interior."

"All original 3 window "        "     "         "           "            "         "        "           "                "              "           "           "

"Once owned by Henry Ford".  (They all were before 1937)

"One of a kind"

"One owner, or Original owner", (Followed by a string of people who had it before them.

"Running when parked"  (50 years ago when abandoned in the junk yard)

 

Roll up you pants legs, it's to late to save your shoes.

 

 

 

[JACK M]

When I see that one owner line I always ask "which dealer did YOU buy it from?"

 

However, all of my cars are one owner,,,ME!

 

 

 

.

Edited March 27, 2016 by JACK M (see edit history)

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Over the years I've seen increasing amounts of hyperbole, falsehoods and misstatements in ads for cars. Not just the crap that you might expect from a small time character who fancies himself to be a "dealer", but from just average "Joes", as well. I think sellers do themselves a big disservice when they imagine that they are capable of fancy marketing terms and techniques when they can't even spell "coup". I find it hard to take a seller, and especially his car, seriously in many such cases.

[mercer09]

I would wager that there probably are not more then 1o of that Buick 90 in existence.

 

That being the case, the point is it is a rare car................!

[keiser31]

Yes, if production was 586, I would say it is rare, but being one of three left....I doubt it. Unless the other 583 are known/documented to be gone, you just cannot say.

[hddennis]

To me the operative word here is "known" Until somebody lists another he's stating the current facts as known to him and most others. It's really not a lie nor mis-information until proven otherwise.  My 1917 Maxwell Light Delivery appears to be the only  known survivor and until someone proves the existence of another I'm calling it just that.

 

Howard Dennis

[keiser31]

16 minutes ago, hddennis said:

To me the operative word here is "known" Until somebody lists another he's stating the current facts as known to him and most others. It's really not a lie nor mis-information until proven otherwise.  My 1917 Maxwell Light Delivery appears to be the only  known survivor and until someone proves the existence of another I'm calling it just that.

 

Howard Dennis

Yep....that is why I used the word, "known".

[rusty12]

Yes, before you can call it a lie or misinformation, you should be able to list more than three, known survivors. If you can't list more than three,you know less than the advertiser.

Edited March 28, 2016 by rusty12 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

What would be correct would be something like:  "I as the seller happen to only know of 5 other cars".   It could be that the seller is the club expert for those cars so that sentence means something. It could be the seller lives under a rock and it means nothing.

[chistech]

I just recently purchased out of 40+ yr storage, a F 32 , 1932' Olds Deluxe Convertible Roadster to restore. It is the  6 cyl, 6 wooden wheel model.  Total production 249. With that said, there was a total of 733, 6cyl CR's made. Some were not deluxe (5 wheel )  and others were wire wheeled models of both 6 wheel and 5 wheel versions. While I've only owned the car a short time, I've done considerable research on the internet, plus speaking with over 50 Olds people, some Old's club members, some not. As far as registered cars of Old's club members, only one 6 cyl with wooden wheels is listed and it's the super rare (53 unit) 5 wheel model. I have also been told about 1 other deluxe wooden wheeled, with it's owner not registered with the Olds club. The other 6 cyl DCR (deluxe convertible roadsters), again, only 3 known, are all wire wheeled versions (333units). One of those units in restoration will be having wooden wheels added to it because it's owner prefers the looks over the wire. So by my research, there are only two known TRUE, F32, DCR, wooden wheeled cars left. I don't think I'd be wrong stating this and I don't think the owner of that Buick is wrong either. Part of people objections come from lack of knowledge of the car's production numbers and, in some cases, jealousy, that the person claiming it, even has the ability to claim it. I know a few people I've talked to about my car, who are other Olds owners, seemed somewhat annoyed that I was able to buy this car and that they didn't find it before I did. Now I realize some people will claim all kinds of stuff to help sell their car but the Buick owner also posted the production numbers (low, but not as low as my car) which helps his case and shows he's not ignorant of the car's rarity.

Edited March 30, 2016 by chistech (see edit history)

[Curti]

Cars are as rare as we want them to be, or build them.  But rarity does not translate to value, it just makes the parts hard to find.

[Restorer32]

In 1987-88 we restored a locally built  Teens car of which only 1 was known to exist. It created quite a splash locally, was in all the papers, won an AACA Grand National First and was on the back cover of Antique Automobile. The point being there was plenty of publicity re the rarity of the car.  Even Harrahs only knew of the one example we restored and they had searched diligently as evidenced by the fact that they had in their records all 5 previous owners of the car we restored. Not even a trace of another example surfaced from 1987 UNTIL LAST WEEK when an identical totally original and totally unrestored example turned up tucked away in a shed locally. Never say never.

[keiser31]

1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

In 1987-88 we restored a locally built  Teens car of which only 1 was known to exist. It created quite a splash locally, was in all the papers, won an AACA Grand National First and was on the back cover of Antique Automobile. The point being there was plenty of publicity re the rarity of the car.  Even Harrahs only knew of the one example we restored and they had searched diligently as evidenced by the fact that they had in their records all 5 previous owners of the car we restored. Not even a trace of another example surfaced from 1987 UNTIL LAST WEEK when an identical totally original and totally unrestored example turned up tucked away in a shed locally. Never say never.

This is where I was going with my post. You just never know where another rare one lurks.

[1912Staver]

The general point however is these are very rare cars we are talking about. There may be 1, 2, 5 etc. known survivors of a given car. It Is a "rare" car. A handful more might some day come to light. But there is no real chance that another 25 or 30 will someday be "discovered". 

  Case in point, my 1912 Staver Chicago is one of 5 "known " survivors. There may well be 1 or 2 more out there somewhere. But all 5 of the "known" cars have been known to the collector community for a long time , a couple of them all the way back to the 1930's. None are more recent discoveries than the late 1960's.  One would think if there are any more they would have turned up by now. But even if one or two more are someday found we are still going to have less than 10 in total , and probably no two alike. All of the known survivors are different year and model's from Staver's production range, which was spread over several years and at least 20 different models. All Stavers will continue to be in the quite rare category. And yes parts are very rare, but I do find things every now and then.

 

Greg in Canada

[John_S_in_Penna]

Everyone's an individual, so everyone wants to have

a car that's different from all the others.  I think that's

why "rarity" is appreciated these days.

 

Even cars commonly seen might have their color combination,

or unusual combination of options, announced as "rare!"

[Highlander160]

I'd ask the membership, of the 586 produced is there also a list by body type? Does GM offer that info like they do for Cadillac?

[chistech]

Yes, GM had the year's production broken down by body type.  The 586 is probably the total production of that coupe. Production was also available of each plant's total monthly numbers but not broken down by models at each plant as far as I've found.

 

Judging by what some have said here and how they nee the add to be more PC,  perhaps anyone advertising a car should do it this way.

"Rare car, as of today, 4/1/16, at 9:48am est., and to the best of anyone's knowledge, but really only based on my own research of some good sources, but not held to any possible future barn finds, there is only "X" number known to exist by ME and only ME. Please read the disclaimer pertaining to this statement at the bottom of the add."

 

Hope that would make a lot of people happy. Just doesn't have the same panache does it!

[chistech]

What most don't realize unless they've got a car in these depression years, that 1932 was a low production year overall for most manufacturers and yet, one of the most important in styling and innovation. With Chevy over 300k in production and Ford over 200k in production, the average person assumes that the term "rare" or the statement "only "x" number known to exist is just being thrown out there, and because Buick is a well known popular car, it couldn't really be that rare or few as the add states. But in 1932, only the two above and Plymouth made over 100k in total. The higher end GM cars were produced in much smaller numbers. Buick's total was 56,790 with 586 being the coupes in the add by the OP. Oldsmobile suffered the worst, with only 19,239. So basically, if you own any model of a 1932 Oldsmobile, you have a rare car. Also, if people know GM/Fisher bodied cars of that era they know that they're wood framed and when the wood rotted, people scrapped them. This is perhaps why the National Antique Oldsmobile Club only has a total of 22 of all 1932 body styles listed. Yes, there's more out there not on their list, but one has to doubt it's more than an additional 10. Even if it was 10, that would be 32 cars. That would be 1/5 of one percent of the cars made survived. Is that rare? Apply that math to the Buick coupe numbers, 586 x .2% and you get just over 1.1 units. With three cars known, that comes out to (.6%) still less than 1% of the coupes made in 32. Pretty rare numbers. My own Olds DCR, 249 F32 ww units, 2 known, done in the same math: 249 x .2% comes out to half of one unit (.49). So with two units known, the percentage is more like .8% and higher than the Buick. For some reason some of you don't think that's rare or the owner when advertising shouldn't state that as a selling feature? You must own a Ford model T or A.

[Highlander160]

I meant my question in the best possible context, interesting vintage car conversation. Rare, totally on it's own definition doesn't have to mean uber valuable. I'd imagine the most rare of 1968 Pontiac GTOs would be a chrome front bumper, rubber floor mat, 3 spd stick shift and 2bbl carb. All were on the list, but really who gives a fat rat's hiney? Slow, not pretty, very hard to distinguish from the Plain Jane tempest or LeMans. I think C2 3 spd stick Corvettes are rare too, but again, who cares? Getting back to the big Buick in the topic, 586 is a fairly good number for a car of that ilk. Not a Packard, not a Cadillac 12 or 16, but surely majestic and impressive in a lot full of "bread n butter" models of any make. Even if there's 3 of them in circulation, or at least known to be, it's probably a fair thought to even double that number left and we just haven't seen them yet. Although with 'net communication and the generation shift we're seeing lately (my PC way of describing our elders passing on) you'd think something closer than in any recent time before could be figured out. I like the car, really like it to be totally honest. No shame in my game though, I can't spring for it. 

[1wonton]

Beautiful car, too bad it has been restored.  Maybe it was too far gone but I sure be interested it had not been touched.

[trimacar]

The '32 Olds convertible is a rare car, and good looking, congrats on getting it! 

 

Your car is rare and rightfully so.

 

I do get a kick out of mainly muscle car guys, who seem to go to great lengths to make their car "one of a kind".  This is the only black four speed radio delete fog light option car every built on the second Tuesday of the first week of the last month of production.....that kind of thing   (and yes, I meant to say the second Tuesday of the week, that's when a lot of things my kids wanted when they were younger, and we couldn't afford, were always scheduled to be delivered!).

 

As mentioned, I agree that there are very few car makes/years that can be definitely stated as to number of survivors.  I still think I know of an "unknown to still exist" Duesenberg, but that's another story....

[Matt Harwood]

I personally know of three 1932 Buick model 96 coupes, including the car in question. Is that all of them? Highly unlikely. Is it a crime for a non-expert to make a claim like this? Meh. You guys are a really tough audience, but I can guarantee that the guy who ultimately buys this car doesn't care if its one of three or one of twenty-three. Rarity isn't the reason most cars are purchased and I don't think they're using it as a lever to move the price northward, either.

 

That said, I love this particular car. Had I known that it could be purchased as reasonably as this dealer acquired it, I probably would have bought it myself. To their credit, they did spend quite a bit of money fixing most of the complaints the folks on this board had about the car, mostly in the engine bay. I'm of the opinion that a big Buick is every bit a match for the more popular Full Classics in terms of comfort and performance, and a rumble-seat coupe is a very desirable model, especially on that giant wheelbase.

 

Is it worth what this dealer is asking? I would counter that and ask what would a 1932 Cadillac or Packard rumble seat coupe be worth? Makes the Buick, even at this price, look like a bit of a bargain, regardless of rarity.