When you wish you hired a tractor mechanic...

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

24 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Lots of discussion but I am still wondering the reason for tearing down an engine at an obvious great expense.

 

Could a borescope have been slipped into the crankcase to look at the rods specifically when another diagnosis led to "There must be foreign material on the rods!"

 

I wouldn't think it happened like that.

 

I am not so sure I would throw that whole concept out. I might change a few details of the execution but I have been know to be one who weighs the concept and the details quite analytically.

 

 What Bernie said!!

   Still would like to know IF the rods were/are balanced!

 

  Ben

[TAKerry]

The fellow that does my mechanical work is very talented and skilled at what he does. He owns a couple of very busy shops. Racing was a hobby of his and he needed a race motor for one of his cars. He had a 'friend' do the build as my guy was too busy and his friend was low on the workload side. My friend supplied all of the internals, high dollar named parts to use. After a couple laps on the 1/4 the motor blew. When he took it apart he found that everything inside was cheap junk and nothing at all what he supplied. Needless to say they were no longer friends.

[JV Puleo]

Many years ago, long before I had my own machine tools, I got my first brass car (I was in my 20s then). I took the engine to a highly respected machine shop, one that had just done a Silver Ghost engine I knew of. The gentleman who did the work proudly showed me how he'd "fixed" the cam shaft which was one of those with separate lobes pinned to the shaft. He spot welded them to the shaft. Of course, having done that it was now impossible to replace the central cam bearing since the lobes had to come off for that. He'd also used White truck pistons which, while they worked, didn't have enough deck height and weighed as much as the iron pistons that came out. .I pulled the engine from the shop and finished it myself. I did get it running fairly well and drove the car many miles but now, looking back, I realize that it never performed as well as it should have. But what the heck "it's  only going to be used in parades." (I never do parades.)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

23 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Here is a great shot of a gas tank repair..........NICE!

 

In my opinion, that work is so sub standard and dangerous, that the guy should be punched in the head......hard, a bunch of times. Gee.....wonder if the fuel system has rust or dirt in it? 

 

 

 

 Does that leak?

 

  Ben

[rocketraider]

48 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Ding ding ding! Winner!

I remember that 1957 Nomad you had that had all those engine issues- supposedly "done" by a reputable restorer. 

 

Time was people took pride in their work and especially their reputations. 

[60FlatTop]

26 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

I took the engine to a highly respected machine shop, one that had just done a Silver Ghost engine I knew of.

Yeah, that may be the shop that moved forward to doing exhaust manifold bolt repair on early '50s RR&B's. Almost every one. Check the next time you see one.

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

24 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

I remember that 1957 Nomad you had that had all those engine issues- supposedly "done" by a reputable restorer. 

 

Time was people took pride in their work and especially their reputations. 

After having 7000 cars pass through my hands, I have learned that many professional shops' idea of "restoration" is to simply take a car apart, paint all the parts, and put it back together again. A rebuilt water pump should have new bushings/bearings and a new shaft. Not just sandblasted and painted. But that's what they do. Even some of the very big name shops have serious quality control issues related to cosmetic vs. functional restorations. I believe this is related to their belief that "not many owners know the difference" and "it won't get driven anyway." It's a form of fraud, but one that's widespread and not recognized very often so it passes unmarked.

 

If the owners really don't know the difference and the cars really don't get driven, who's going to catch them, let alone prosecute them?

 

 

[kar3516]

10 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

After having 7000 cars pass through my hands, I have learned that many professional shops' idea of "restoration" is to simply take a car apart, paint all the parts, and put it back together again. A rebuilt water pump should have new bushings/bearings and a new shaft. Not just sandblasted and painted. But that's what they do. Even some of the very big name shops have serious quality control issues related to cosmetic vs. functional restorations. I believe this is related to their belief that "not many owners know the difference" and "it won't get driven anyway." It's a form of fraud, but one that's widespread and not recognized very often so it passes unmarked.

 

If the owners really don't know the difference and the cars really don't get driven, who's going to catch them, let alone prosecute them?

 

 

@Matt Harwood I’m curious how often many of your customers that are having significant internal work performed stop by to get a look at disassembled components to understand issues and recommendations?  Or do you only perform work on your cars needing improvement or repairs prior to sale?  I have work being done on two cars right now and I can’t understand how any owner would let work proceed without lots of pictures and periodic hands on inspections…

Edited June 13 by kar3516 (see edit history)

[drhach]

Lately I've heard the phrase, "is it a dumb idea if it works"? I think the correct answer is "yes it is". 

[JV Puleo]

At the risk of offending the trophy hounds I'll say that this  sort of hack mechanical work is the natural and unavoidable result of placing ALL of the emphasis in "judging" on cosmetic perfection. Many of the award winning cars are actually finished to a much higher standard than they were when new. For an organization that claims to be "preserving history" this  is just as unhistorical as a brush paint job...with house paint.

 

Unfortunately, assessing a car's mechanical condition is probably 20 times harder than assessing its appearance so I can see why the cosmetic condition gets all the attention. I've no idea what could be done about this but perhaps (and this is just an off-the-cuff suggestion) cars that are actually driven to a meet should get a few points added to their scores based on mileage. I doubt it would level the playing field but it might take the edge off.

[Bhigdog]

There are those that strive for  both mechanical and cosmetic perfection. When one personaly spends 2000 to 3000 hours on a restoration, both mechanical and cosmetic, it,s difficult to turn that restoration into a used car just to satisfy another,s opinion of correctness.

Four of my 6 restorations went on to aaca senior grand nat status and concours awards. The 5th to senior status. They all were trailered. 

They were trailered to preserve the record of my accomplishments. I still drive them sparingly in good weather. Other than normal minor cosmetic degradation under the hood they still look like new cars. I loòk at them and they still give me joy as no used car could. 

As an aside, though judged and awarded high honors, I routinely declined the trophys.

As an after thought i do agree with you on over restoration such as bc cc on 50,s and older cars......bob

Edited June 14 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

I've no idea what could be done about this but perhaps (and this is just an off-the-cuff suggestion) cars that are actually driven to a meet should get a few points added to their scores based on mileage.

 

Been a long time since I have been there, however, several very good friends show cars there often. There is a tour, of some considerable mileage, before the Concourse  show on the grass of Pebble Beach! As I understand it, cars that complete the tour get an extra point. Which in that show usually makes or breaks the win!

[Borough Essex]

I don't doubt that modern tractor mechanics are highly skilled technicians working on very expensive machinery. Am surprised though at the ease with which some people took offence to a throwaway line referring to a bush mechanic doing repairs on their tractor back in the day without the funds or parts to do it properly. Considering we are the demographic which likes to tell young people to toughen up and not be so easily offended, perhaps we should look in the mirror at our own attitudes when someone says something we don't like?

[John348]

21 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Lots of discussion but I am still wondering the reason for tearing down an engine at an obvious great expense.

 

Could a borescope have been slipped into the crankcase to look at the rods specifically when another diagnosis led to "There must be foreign material on the rods!"

 

I wouldn't think it happened like that.

 

I am not so sure I would throw that whole concept out. I might change a few details of the execution but I have been know to be one who weighs the concept and the details quite analytically.

 I am with Bernie on this, was the engine being torn down because this repair failed? 

[JOHN GRUNDER]

I like to say something about tractor mechanic. I am a graduate from a trade school  as a machinist in 1952. My father and mother started a farm eq. business in 1935. Iam 2nd owner, my sons have now. I have STUTZ cars iam working on 1930 4 dr cov. I build my motors  the 30 car i used packard rods had them babbitted and designed piston 7.5 com. This is the motor at George Holman to run a supercharger for the Jones car Ask him about my build John Gunder 89 yr old farm eq. mechanic  .Respect US   ED.

[60FlatTop]

Since the topic was opened I looked up information about the qualities of JB Weld. I would not totally reject the idea of using J B Weld to balance the mass of a set of rods while going through the process of an engine rebuild. It has a tensile strength of about 5,000 PSI and can withstand temperatures above 500 degrees F. Since all it is required to do is hold its own mass to the rod and be exposed to a quite compatible crankcase atmosphere I would not argue its use. And if given that choice over drilling or grinding away material an advised and thought out decision would give the epoxy the green light.

 

For me rebuilding an engine is a one time thing. I would not plan on taking it apart again during my ownership and I would be surprised at a successive owner would need to disassemble my work. I got a car out of storage today that had an engine rebuild in 2011. The rebuild was mentioned with a friend who came along to help. I may have uttered two sentences about the rebuild. I wouldn't expect to dwell on it more.

[kramaton]

31 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Since the topic was opened I looked up information about the qualities of JB Weld. I would not totally reject the idea of using J B Weld to balance the mass of a set of rods while going through the process of an engine rebuild. It has a tensile strength of about 5,000 PSI and can withstand temperatures above 500 degrees F. Since all it is required to do is hold its own mass to the rod and be exposed to a quite compatible crankcase atmosphere I would not argue its use. And if given that choice over drilling or grinding away material an advised and thought out decision would give the epoxy the green light.

 

For me rebuilding an engine is a one time thing. I would not plan on taking it apart again during my ownership and I would be surprised at a successive owner would need to disassemble my work. I got a car out of storage today that had an engine rebuild in 2011. The rebuild was mentioned with a friend who came along to help. I may have uttered two sentences about the rebuild. I wouldn't expect to dwell on it more.

I would agree with you. A lot of people will not agree but it would be interesting to know if any of the epoxy failed on the connecting rods or if it held up.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

3 hours ago, kramaton said:

I would agree with you. A lot of people will not agree but it would be interesting to know if any of the epoxy failed on the connecting rods or if it held up.

 

  Me too.   That information does not seem to be forth coming.  Nor if the gas tank leaked.

 

  Ben

[mechanician]

5,000 psi sounds high, until you put it in perspective, the epoxy is at best perhaps ~7% as strong as the steel used in forged rods.  Strength will drop with temperature for both materials, but much more quickly for the epoxy.  The acceleration experienced by pistons is massive, some really rough numbers giving it every benefit of the doubt perhaps ~50g as a bare, bare minimum, so even being optimistic it needs to support 50x its own weight under cyclical loading for ~100 millions of cycles (think 2000 hours between rebuilds at 1000rpm).  That's not taking interface stresses into consideration (steel and epoxy will have different thermal expansion) or myriad other considerations.  For a car that costs at least 2x the average US house, and would lose hundreds of thousands in value if something grenades publicly, why not machine some proper counterweights?

 

It was probably torn down on the suspicion that something like this might exist, before the 6-figure mistake (not to mention damage to an irreplaceable historical object) occurs.  If a patient gets wheeled into the hospital with a gunshot, and in treating the doctors discover that he has terminal cancer, was the cancer harmless because it didn't put him in the hospital?

Edited June 15 by mechanician (see edit history)

[edinmass]

20 hours ago, John348 said:

 I am with Bernie on this, was the engine being torn down because this repair failed? 

Every car purchased should have its oil pan dropped. That’s what happened here. The car was driven less than a mile after purchase. If you toss a rod on a Duesenberg, figure 150k for a rebuild and if you put a hole in the block minus 100k to the overall value of the car. Every car that comes into my possession has the pan pulled…….before I run it. Every barn find has it number two on the list after checking that the motor turns by hand. 
 

 

The JB Weld probably had less than a half hours running time on the rods. Basically a trailer queen for the last 15-20 years. Also…..JB Weld is a guess………could be almost any product. 
 

Also, factory Model J rods are aluminum………and are very prone to failure after 90 years. I have seen cars running with original rods that were cracked.

Edited June 15 by edinmass (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

On 6/12/2024 at 10:27 AM, edinmass said:

 

Here is a great shot of a gas tank repair..........NICE!

 

In my opinion, that work is so sub standard and dangerous, that the guy should be throat punched several times with a pitch fork. Gee.....wonder if the fuel system has rust or dirt in it? 

 

 

 

 

Fixed that for you, Ed. 

 

[kramaton]

9 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

  Me too.   That information does not seem to be forth coming.  Nor if the gas tank leaked.

 

  Ben

Just looking at the photo the gas tank patch looks very old. 

[60FlatTop]

Interesting. The first comment and the last comment on the job had such a different tone.

 

One of my two sentences yesterday was that my engine had, maybe, 3,000 miles on it. Didn't say a word about the 12 annual oil changes.

[Matt Harwood]

[Rusty_OToole]

7 hours ago, edinmass said:

Every car purchased should have its oil pan dropped. That’s what happened here. The car was driven less than a mile after purchase. If you toss a rod on a Duesenberg, figure 150k for a rebuild and if you put a hole in the block minus 100k to the overall value of the car. Every car that comes into my possession has the pan pulled…….before I run it. Every barn find has it number two on the list after checking that the motor turns by hand. 
 

 

The JB Weld probably had less than a half hours running time on the rods. Basically a trailer queen for the last 15-20 years. Also…..JB Weld is a guess………could be almost any product. 
 

Also, factory Model J rods are aluminum………and are very prone to failure after 90 years. I have seen cars running with original rods that were cracked.

I hope this wasn't someone's idea of how to patch fatigue cracks. That is a thought to give you the heebie jeebies.

[Angelfish]

Ed and the Tractor Mechanics, great name for band.

[Tph479]

On 6/12/2024 at 12:25 PM, edinmass said:

 

Just two quick photos of work that even a tractor mechanic wouldn't do.............

 

Model J Duesenberg rods......with JB Weld to ballance them..........yes, this is a real photo of an engine that someone paid to have rebuilt. You can't make this stuff up. And YES, it was a numbers matching open car that was very well known. Remember, the guy who did this is still in business and charging for his work. You can see the newish pistons on the rods. And to answer the question before anyone asks........it's not a car from our collection. 

 

 

 

 

 

Well the question that has not been asked yet is, did you weight this butchery and see how close to perfectly balanced they were to each other? Or were they off a couple of globs?

[edinmass]

11 minutes ago, Tph479 said:

Well the question that has not been asked yet is, did you weight this butchery and see how close to perfectly balanced they were to each other? Or were they off a couple of globs?

 

We were too dumbfounded to check……….this was one of the top Duesenberg’s in the world…….

 

That gas tank patch was criminal………….

 

 

[wayne sheldon]

I have been fortunate in my life to have personally known several major collectors. With one exception, I rarely mention their names. Most of the ones I refer to as "good friends" are usually very involved with their restorations and refurbishments. A few are very hands on themselves, a couple just watch closely over the mechanic's or painter's shoulders. They make certain that the cars are repaired or restored right!

However, knowing them, has also allowed for me to meet a few other "major" collectors. I don't mention their names either. But some of the workmanship I have seen?  A few stories I have been told in confidence? Frightening.

How some people with the money to do it right could treat a million dollar car that way? Just boggles the mind. (I do understand it, it still boggles the mind.)

[nick8086]

Ed you may like this..

 

They just did this again this week..

 

 

[Angelfish]

On 6/15/2024 at 4:03 PM, wayne sheldon said:

…. But some of the workmanship I have seen?  A few stories I have been told in confidence? Frightening.

How some people with the money to do it right could treat a million dollar car that way? Just boggles the mind. (I do understand it, it still boggles the mind.)

Can you speak in general terms about some of the frightening workmanship?  Not giving anything away, but in the context of educating us as to how we can identify problems that were out of the ordinary?  And satisfying my morbid curiosity.

[wayne sheldon]

6 hours ago, Angelfish said:

Can you speak in general terms about some of the frightening workmanship?  Not giving anything away, but in the context of educating us as to how we can identify problems that were out of the ordinary?  And satisfying my morbid curiosity.

 

Not much I can say in open forum. Even in person I try to respect people that have shown me their wonderful collections. A lot of my best friends are mutual friends with several collectors that we all respect very much. We might compare notes on an individual car, knowing that we both have been there and seen the car many times.

So much of the antique automobile hobby is wonderful people, regardless of their station in life. On a major annual regional HCCA tour about thirty years ago, one of my longtime best friends, like me, a hard working wage slave working on the side to have and enjoy the antique automobiles he had a passion for. He did not own a car trailer or a vehicle to tow one. The tour was about fifty miles from his home, and a couple hundred miles over three days of touring. He quite naturally just drove his big six cylinder Buick to attend the tour. Which was fine until he knocked out a rod bearing. The club's trouble truck got his Buick back to the hotel, however, he still had to get it home. My model T trailer was way too small for his Buick.

At the dinner that night, I sat with (one of my best friends) and his family along with a couple other people. At that tour, were a handful of significantly major collectors. Among them a fellow I had gotten to know fairly well through the HCCA Regional Group that I belonged to, but (my longtime one of my best friends) knew who he was, but didn't really know him himself. (My close friend) had been walking around the dining hall talking with several good friends, but when he came back to the table where we were, He said that (the significantly major collector) had stopped him and asked if he had arrangements for getting his broken Buick home, to which (my close friend) replied that he was still working on it. The major collector reached into his pocket and tossed his keys on the table, saying "My truck and trailer are yours to use if you want them!" They were from different Regional Groups, barely knew each other. Not all rich people are selfish. 

That same major collector? I have seen him several times on local club tours stop and help us regular folk when they breakdown on club tours. I have seen him changing tires on another person's car, or crawl underneath to fix something that came loose.

 

I am basically a nobody special. However I have been fortunate to know several very special people. Mostly through the antique automobile hobby. Many times some collector I know at some show or other type of meet will introduce me to some other well known major collector. They have always greeted me as though I was a somebody. I value the friendships I have in the hobby, and most of the wealthy collectors I have known worked for and earned their wealth. They are good people. I always enjoy visiting them, and their collections. They do not owe me anything, and I want nothing from them other than the friendship shared by people with a common interest.

[edinmass]

In fifty years of collecting cars I have met a bunch of great folks. Some eccentric but most are “normal” like all of us here. 99 percent of all my collector car hobby dealings have been fun and positive. Weather driving a 48 Loco or a Model T car guys are car guys. And a T is just as much fun as a Model J. 

[Dr B]

On 6/13/2024 at 8:26 PM, JV Puleo said:

Unfortunately, assessing a car's mechanical condition is probably 20 times harder than assessing its appearance so I can see why the cosmetic condition gets all the attention. I've no idea what could be done about this

A few clubs do judge the functioning of the car.  I know that the NCRS has an operations and performance verification judging standard.  The operations check of the car is performed every time the car is judged.  The Performance verification judging is a separate category to demonstrate that all mechanical and electrical functions of the car are in proper working order.  This latter criteria is very strict.  If even one system is not working properly, the car fails the PV certification.  You are given 15 minutes to fix a problem one time.  

 

Robert

[JV Puleo]

I can see that as a possibility with modern cars (i.e. from the 50s up). I think the older they get the more difficult it becomes. I'd venture to guess that 90% of the judges have never even driven a properly sorted pre-war car and no one alive today ever drove a brass car when they were new. It's  certainly possible to figure these things out but the number of people who even have the knowledge is small.

[Dr B]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

I can see that as a possibility with modern cars (i.e. from the 50s up). I think the older they get the more difficult it becomes. I'd venture to guess that 90% of the judges have never even driven a properly sorted pre-war car and no one alive today ever drove a brass car when they were new. It's  certainly possible to figure these things out but the number of people who even have the knowledge is small.

I agree. 

 

Robert

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Meanwhile tractors can be fun as well.. future collectors as well as farmers? 

 

 

[rocketraider]

One of my favorite magazines!

 

https://www.antiquepower.com/

 

Yes, tractor guys are every bit as detailed and accurate in their restorations as we are.

[Bhigdog]

10 hours ago, rocketraider said:

One of my favorite magazines!

 

https://www.antiquepower.com/

 

Yes, tractor guys are every bit as detailed and accurate in their restorations as we are.

And they are just as, if not more, well heeled. A  1913 Case 30-60 sold for $1,470,000. If it was mine and needed work done I'd make certain it was a "tractor mechanic" doing it and not some used car mechanic...............Bob

Edited June 21 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[29StutzM]

Can't say enough kind words about John Grunder! He has pulled me out of more than a couple Stutz issues, always ready to help and give me direction.  He is a true tractor mechanic, thanks John!!!