1933 Lincoln v12

[mike ward]

Looking for any information on a contact to have my 1933 Lincoln v12 rebuilt 

[Walt G]

let us know your location so that possibly someone close by to you can be suggested please. Also your time line as to when you want the car completed, Good shops are not lacking in work. What needs to be rebuilt? Engine, Transmission, steering, brakes ? More Information...............

[kar3516]

41 minutes ago, mike ward said:

Looking for any information on a contact to have my 1933 Lincoln v12 rebuilt 

Maybe you would rather sell the car instead? 😁
One of my favorite cars…

Edited December 30, 2023 by kar3516 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

As a causal observer, I shall comment. Expect to spend 65k minimum for a rebuild. And expect it to take at lease a year. Of course that doesn’t include the waiting time in line before the shop gets to it. What is your location? We can make better recommendations that way.

[Restorer32]

Ed, can you educate us 

as to why it would cost $65k to rebuild a '33 Lincoln 12 ?

[edinmass]

Do the math…….piston kit with rings is 2k, rod bearings 150 each, main bearings 2k, new valves, timing chain, obviously you do the starter, distributor, water pump, clutch, carb, machine work, chrome, gasket set. R&R the engine….. it’s easy to spend money. I have three cars under restoration right now, so it’s fair to say I know the going rates for work. What do they charge in your area for labor……I’m talking a competent shop with experience in these engines. Not some local desiel shop pushing out good enough work. What would you charge to do the entire job and warranty it?  80 percent of the engines that passed through our shop were “do overs” from others. We just did a 32 Pierce over for a friend. One of the “top shops” who have several Pebble Best of Show trophies didn’t last 200 miles. And the right rear wheel fell off within the first 25 miles of driving. 
 

Another question…….we only do total rebuilds with new radiators……..would you build this engine and run the existing radiator? We would not…..regardless of what the owners says. 
 

As you are aware, I have sent several friends to you shop for service and repair, (and they were happy with your work) so I have faith in your abilities………what would you quote for an entire rebuild of this engine to like new condition………..to be honest, not having visited your shop, I don’t know if you do all or partial in house? Last month we were machining some rod bearings that were sent to us semi finished. The babbitt was tinned incorrectly…..and it failed before it got into the car. Easy way to eat an engine……….the risk/reward on rebuilding today is significant. 

Edited January 1 by edinmass (see edit history)

[dalef62]

2 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

Ed, can you educate us 

as to why it would cost $65k to rebuild a '33 Lincoln 12 ?

Ask Matt Harwood!  I think he quit counting after he hit $50k.

[ILIKECARS53]

For my own knowledge is the fork and blade design engine???

[edinmass]

Yes, Matt was well over 50k, and did half the labor himself. It is a fork and blade rod set up. I can’t remember everything Matt did. I’m certain he did the radiator, but his car was a modern style core, not a honeycomb unit. He didn’t use new valves or springs. Didn’t do the mains if I remember correctly, as he had a parts engine.

[wayne sheldon]

On 12/30/2023 at 2:29 PM, mike ward said:

Looking for any information on a contact to have my 1933 Lincoln v12 rebuilt 

 

Most of two days now, we don't know whether he wants the whole car re-restored, or minor engine work done. Does he want to drive it through a few local parades? A major CCCA Caravan? Or maybe a win at Pebble Beach? Maybe he wants to get the most money he can get from his inheritance? (Forgetting that every thousand dollars he adds to the sellable price will cost at least five thousand dollars up front!)

Communication. It is a wonderful thing.

[Walt G]

6 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Communication. It is a wonderful thing.

Two days ago when the question was asked I immediate;y questioned the cars location - to try to help/suggest a competent shop , not to pry or be nosey just to make sense of this. Nothing yet, so all of us who took the time to answer  sit here waiting for an answer. Makes you think - why bother answering question ?

Sure it is a New Years weekend- but for all of us we may also have other things to do.

Wayne questions this too and has some excellent questions as well - how extensive will the car be used?  

Mike Ward show us some courtesy as we are showing you please.

Edited January 1 by Walt G (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

14 hours ago, edinmass said:

Do the math…….piston kit with rings is 2k, rod bearings 150 each, main bearings 2k, new valves, timing chain, obviously you do the starter, distributor, water pump, clutch, carb, machine work, chrome, gasket set. R&R the engine….. it’s easy to spend money. I have three cars under restoration right now, so it’s fair to say I know the going rates for work. What do they charge in your area for labor……I’m talking a competent shop with experience in these engines. Not some local desiel shop pushing out good enough work. What would you charge to do the entire job and warranty it?  80 percent of the engines that passed through our shop were “do overs” from others. We just did a 32 Pierce over for a friend. One of the “top shops” who have several Pebble Best of Show trophies didn’t last 200 miles. And the right rear wheel fell off within the first 25 miles of driving. 
 

Another question…….we only do total rebuilds with new radiators……..would you build this engine and run the existing radiator? We would not…..regardless of what the owners says. 
 

As you are aware, I have sent several friends to you shop for service and repair, (and they were happy with your work) so I have faith in your abilities………what would you quote for an entire rebuild of this engine to like new condition………..to be honest, not having visited your shop, I don’t know if you do all or partial in house? Last month we were machining some rod bearings that were sent to us semi finished. The babbitt was tinned incorrectly…..and it failed before it got into the car. Easy way to eat an engine……….the risk/reward on rebuilding today is significant. 

Ed, I was not doubting your estimate. I just thought the audience might benefit from knowing how you arrived at your figure. Big difference between a "short block " rebuild and a full rebuild/restoration. Folks forget that your old nearly worn out starter might not be able to handle the compression of a freshly rebuilt engine and will require a rebuild too. Same with carb, water pump, clutch. No wonder we only work time and materials.

[TAKerry]

It would be nice to have a follow up, however all due respect to some members the question was not 'How much will it cost to rebuild my V12?' it was does anyone know WHO CAN? The OP may very well be in tune with how much the experience will cost. For all I know (and this goes to all on this forum that I only know by call name) he could be a gazillionaire with a love of cars, not worried about what the cost will be. It becomes offputting at least to me, when prices are quoted right up front when someone asks a question that is not price related. 

[3macboys]

16 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

It would be nice to have a follow up, however all due respect to some members the question was not 'How much will it cost to rebuild my V12?' it was does anyone know WHO CAN? The OP may very well be in tune with how much the experience will cost. For all I know (and this goes to all on this forum that I only know by call name) he could be a gazillionaire with a love of cars, not worried about what the cost will be. It becomes offputting at least to me, when prices are quoted right up front when someone asks a question that is not price related. 

To follow up on that - please don't forget that you can follow along on the posts without signing back in.  The OP may very well be reading along, just not signed in so you don't know for sure if they have been back or not, the only thing for sure is that they have not commented further.

Edited January 1 by 3macboys (see edit history)

[edinmass]

43 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Ed, I was not doubting your estimate. I just thought the audience might benefit from knowing how you arrived at your figure. Big difference between a "short block " rebuild and a full rebuild/restoration. Folks forget that your old nearly worn out starter might not be able to handle the compression of a freshly rebuilt engine and will require a rebuild too. Same with carb, water pump, clutch. No wonder we only work time and materials.

 

To be honest, with all the accessories, it’s probably light. The car looked decent, but we both know when you open up Pandora’s box…………it’s getting frightening how expensive it is to restore cars now. Labor, chrome, paint and materials. Hell, how do you charge for materials when you’re welding in floors? Wire/rod, gas, electricity, grinding wheels, wear and tear on equipment. I shudder to think what a paint booth costs now. Overhead is outrageous in many parts of the country, and the never ending labor shortage. Every restoration shop I know is looking for two to five guys…..to start tomorrow.

Edited January 1 by edinmass (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

12 hours ago, ILIKECARS53 said:

For my own knowledge is the fork and blade design engine???

This last generation of the big Lincoln Twelves was a completely different engine than the masterpiece fork and blade 65-degree 448 ci KB powerplant.  Beginning with the 1933 KA which this car appears to be, it has offset cylinder blocks which allow plain rods, not fork and blade.   For this year only, it was a 3" X 4.5": bore and stroke, 381.7 ci, 67-degree engine.  For 1934, the bore increased to 3.125", 414 ci, powering both the nominally KA 136" wb and KB 145" wb chassis through the end of 1939 Model K production.    

[edinmass]

I have had Model L’s and a Model K apart. Never dug into a KA or KB…….yet! Thanks for the explanation. 👍

Edited January 1 by edinmass (see edit history)

[8E45E]

16 hours ago, edinmass said:

Do the math…….piston kit with rings is 2k, rod bearings 150 each, main bearings 2k, new valves, timing chain, obviously you do the starter, distributor, water pump, clutch, carb, machine work, chrome, gasket set. R&R the engine….. it’s easy to spend money. 

Do not forget to factor in shipping costs of these components, should they not be available locally.   They are significant enough these days to add to the restoration bill.

 

Here's what it cost me to have a small 4lb box sent via USPS from Montana to Alberta:

 

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

J and M machine if your in the east. Talk to John. Mike

[DavidinCA]

Threads like this are really helpful, since it’s very difficult to get even a ballpark out of a shop.  Just saying, for example $50-100k is close enough with all the unknowns to know how to budget. I understand the shop doesn’t want to be tied to a number, but to say it will cost what it costs is too vague for many people to deal with.  

[ILIKECARS53]

9 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

This last generation of the big Lincoln Twelves was a completely different engine than the masterpiece fork and blade 65-degree 448 ci KB powerplant.  Beginning with the 1933 KA which this car appears to be, it has offset cylinder blocks which allow plain rods, not fork and blade.   For this year only, it was a 3" X 4.5": bore and stroke, 381.7 ci, 67-degree engine.  For 1934, the bore increased to 3.125", 414 ci, powering both the nominally KA 136" wb and KB 145" wb chassis through the end of 1939 Model K production.    

Thanks for the explanation.  I was not sure if this was a fork and blade design.  Based on this I have seen a partial rebuild on a fork and blade  and it is very complicated.  

[ericmac]

I recently read a David Schultz column about the "affordability " of Classic cars. This thread definitely offers a counterpoint to the argument that Classics are affordable for the average collector. With no disrespect intended toward Mr. Schultz,  an engine problem can get very hard to explain to one's other half in a big hurry, especially if they are not well steeped in the hobby as was Matt's wife. Thanks to all for the discussion.  Mayhap the OP is trying to decide how to break the news at home?

[edinmass]

For years my only way to work through the hobby and move up into better cars was finding something with acceptable cosmetics and fixing the “bad engine” or severe mechanical issues with the car. Seemed like 80 percent of the bottom feeders out there along with me had the same idea. Today, a 100 point car with a very bad engine is now no longer attractive………simply because of the economics changing. Less reproduction parts are available today than just five or ten years ago. Some modern technology has filled in the gaps, but at much higher costs. It’s getting to the point again like it was in the 50’s. Buy a perfect running closed car and source it for parts. Literally it’s going to be easier to buy a high point sedan and pull an engine out of it to drop in the open car than do a rebuild. Just the time factor makes this a viable option. It may make the numbers matching crowd rethink the concept, especially on more common production cars.

[George Smolinski]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Seemed like 80 percent of the bottom feeders out there along with me had the same idea.

Two questions & please take no offense at either.

In your statement, are you classifying yourself as a bottom feeder at that point in your car "history?"

Can you please define bottom feeder? I've seen it used in 2 ways. One is as you somewhat describe; someone starting out buying vehicles needing work or lesser vehicles, and selling/trading up to better, more desirable ones. The other way is derogatory, meant to show disdain for someone who for whatever reason, can't or doesn't own a high class vehicle. 

 

FYI, I am the first definition of a bottom feeder, probably will always be (I choose not to spend what some may classify as stupid money on vehicles), and I've experienced the second definition of bottom feeder.

 

Either way, I can still appreciate a fine original or restored to original vehicle no matter who the owner is.

[edinmass]

 

The first one........I try never to be derogatory to anyone in the hobby, or in life generally. I am known to occasionally be opinionated.  Happy New Year George........still looking for my steam car. 

[George Smolinski]

49 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

The first one........I try never to be derogatory to anyone in the hobby, or in life generally. I am known to occasionally be opinionated.  Happy New Year George........still looking for my steam car. 

Happy New Year to you! I appreciate your sharing your knowledge and your input here.

[Gunsmoke]

Interesting thread advice given here, I'm guessing the OP is not a serious one, indeed, OP car looks like it has already been restored. Won't be surprised if we never hear back.

[edinmass]

24 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

Interesting thread advice given here, I'm guessing the OP is not a serious one, indeed, OP car looks like it has already been restored. Won't be surprised if we never hear back.

 

I agree.......we shall see!

[George Smolinski]

1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

Interesting thread advice given here, I'm guessing the OP is not a serious one, indeed, OP car looks like it has already been restored. Won't be surprised if we never hear back.

May not hear back from the OP, but some of us among the unwashed masses learned a little about Lincoln V12 engine rebuilding.

[8E45E]

2 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

Interesting thread advice given here, I'm guessing the OP is not a serious one, indeed, OP car looks like it has already been restored. Won't be surprised if we never hear back.

Even if he is serious, he may have lost interest now, knowing the actual costs are real, and not an 'overpriced quote' by a local engine rebuilder where he lives.   Even though it looks like its already been restored, the engine may have developed a knock. (Just ask Matt.)  But agree, a reply of 'thanks for the info', unpleasant as it is, would have been appreciated.  

 

Craig

[Gearheadengineer]

To the OP: as noted above, it will be expensive. Prohibitively so. Your only real option is to give the car to me and save yourself a bunch of money. I’ll send my phone number so we can schedule the pickup. 😀

[TTR]

This thread, while offering a lot of (unsolicited) advise/opinions/suggestions, is quite typical of any and all interweb forum topics by demonstrating very well why one should avoid asking any (serious) advise or recommendations in public forums for almost anything.

I imagine same applies to other social media.

Edited January 2 by TTR (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

23 hours ago, DavidinCA said:

Threads like this are really helpful, since it’s very difficult to get even a ballpark out of a shop.  Just saying, for example $50-100k is close enough with all the unknowns to know how to budget. I understand the shop doesn’t want to be tied to a number, but to say it will cost what it costs is too vague for many people to deal with.  

 

What's the rule of thumb, always double the shop estimate?  That has usually held for me, including when I had my 12 rebuilt.

[alsancle]

46 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

What's the rule of thumb, always double the shop estimate?  That has usually held for me, including when I had my 12 rebuilt.

Generally.  Yes.    Although I have two different friends having engines rebuilt.  One is a Caddy V16 with a 75K estimate and the other is a Model J Duesenberg with a 100K estimate.   Both are on target to be within estimates, HOWEVER, no serious block or head problems were found with either engine.

Edited January 2 by alsancle (see edit history)

[StanleyRegister]

1 hour ago, TTR said:

This thread, while offering a lot of (unsolicited) advise/opinions/suggestions, is quite typical of any and all interweb forum topics by demonstrating very well why one should avoid asking any (serious) advise or recommendations in public forums for almost anything.

I imagine same applies to other social media.

Boy have I experienced that.  Especially here.