The collector car world is in the midst of a generational transition

[nick8086]

Maybe..

Edited October 2, 2023 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

A big driver of interest in Model Ts with younger hobbyists is the construction of period style speedsters; relatively easy for someone with reasonable skills and a modest budget to build.  Personally I think that is a good thing and an entry to possible interest in brass cars, traditional hot rods, a stock T or just other old cars in general.  I understand most brass tours accept these guys which is smart imho.  

[kfle]

16 hours ago, TTR said:

Inexpensive & simple start for a hot rod perhaps ?

The hagerty article is insurance quotes/policies for original model T's not turning them into Hot Rods.  

[kfle]

15 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I certainly did not say they are horrible. They have a good deal of simple charm.

But using one in anything but quite low volume, low speed traffic will probably not be a pleasurable experence.  I personally have no idea of why a young person would buy one. Except perhaps a older friend or familly member has exposed the younger person to the world of Model T's.

 I have a 23 year old son myself. A Model T is about the last car either he or any of his friends want.  I have a basket case 1914 T speedster that has at times been mocked up into something that looks like a more or less complete car. My son and his friends totally ignore it.

 A Skyline on the other hand would be a car any of them would latch on to except they are so blasted expensive. { most of them around here are the later 1980's - early 1990's versions }  Also the  right hand drive configuration of JDM cars is a pain in the butt that even a young person can recognise despite the towering reputation of Skylines in youth culture.

We can agree to disagree about the driving experience and what we are observing in the world around us.  My 22 year old son would drive this daily around town while in Michigan.  No issues ever and he loved every minute of it, and his friends loved it too.  Again, the stats from the Hagerty article shows growing interest and insurance policies for Model T's by young people, so we can either believe in what we 'feel' or we can go with the data.  

[MCHinson]

I got into antique cars when I was in my 30's. I am now in my 60's. I had Model A Fords for many years, although I now own two 1937 Buicks. I have drivien a Model T Ford, and while they don't personally appeal to me, I understand that a lot of young people, do find them appealing. I know multiple younger hobbyists in my local AACA Chapter who own Model T Fords. They love them and enjoy driving them often.   

[1935Packard]

I've never had a pre-1934 car, but I've been thinking about buying a Model T.   The appeal, at least to me, is that it's a totally different experience from later cars and yet it's relatively inexpensive, parts are readily available, and there is tons of club support.  That's a pretty good combo.

[1912Staver]

4 hours ago, kfle said:

We can agree to disagree about the driving experience and what we are observing in the world around us.  My 22 year old son would drive this daily around town while in Michigan.  No issues ever and he loved every minute of it, and his friends loved it too.  Again, the stats from the Hagerty article shows growing interest and insurance policies for Model T's by young people, so we can either believe in what we 'feel' or we can go with the data.  

It would be interesting to hear the actual numbers of young people we are talking about rather than just percentages.

Sooner or later all of our old cars have to end up in the hands of someone younger. Or else just sit until they are scrap metal. And it is good news that a percentage of Model T's are ending up in youthfull hands.

My whole point was that it really depends on where you live if Model T ownership and driving is going to be a pleasurable experence.  Many of us would like to have access to a quiet area for early car operation. But reality gets in the way of many of us in this regard. City life becomes a necessary evil for many of us who want to earn a living. Or in my case retirement in a semi rural area. In some ways the area is even worse than a lot of city areas. Long straight hilly roads where the pick up trucks are frequently traveling at at least twice the posted speed. Add in lots of tree cover for hidden driveways and blind intersections and it should be obvious that when accidents happen around here they are as often as not quite serious.  

 Not much different than the situation bicycle riders face. I am sure that bike riding would be far more popular if riders did not have to gamble on the safe behaviour of motorists. Much the same applies to Model T driving.

Anytime you get a mix of vehicles of vastly differing speed, manurability and stopping ability be they early automobiles, or bicycles. sooner or later there is going to be trouble. And 99% of the time the modern car driver walks away unscratched. The same is unfortunately not always true for the other person.

[TTR]

18 hours ago, kfle said:

The hagerty article is insurance quotes/policies for original model T's not turning them into Hot Rods.  

And not counting all the umpteen million “Speedsters” (essentially “Hot Rods” by different name) built in past 100+ years ?

Edited October 2, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[edinmass]

8 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

I've never had a pre-1934 car, but I've been thinking about buying a Model T.   The appeal, at least to me, is that it's a totally different experience from later cars and yet it's relatively inexpensive, parts are readily available, and there is tons of club support.  That's a pretty good combo.

In your climate, you can park it outside with just a cover……..and the car won’t be any worse for the wear. Model T’s are great fun. Easy to service. And simple to dial in. There is no downside on pricing…….and you can haul them with an everyday “mom mobile” so you can even get away for a tour without breaking the bank. Believe it or not, the hardest thing about owning a T is finding a “good” one………in other words most over the years had a bunch of replacement parts that make it difficult to find one that isn’t a floor sweepings car. It takes about a year of study and looking around to get comfortable buying something that isn’t a mess. One advantage is if you don’t care about 1915 or earlier is post 1920 T’s that are assemblages can be bought for 6-7k. Less money than a lawnmower. A local friend bought a 1924 touring that he drove home 30 miles for 4800 dollars……..who says the hobby is not affordable to get your foot through the door. Buy a T, you won’t regret it. 

 

 

[TTR]

10 hours ago, TTR said:

And not counting all the umpteen million “Speedsters” (essentially “Hot Rods” by different name) built in past 100+ years ?

… including many or most that have been constructed from what edinmass so aptly calls “floor sweepings” ?

(Not that I have anything against either approach, as long as it introduces and keeps younger folks interested/involved in the hobby of antique/classic/vintage cars).

 

When younger, I & many of my lifelong vintage car enthusiast friends used to look down our noses on those who played with cars that didn’t align with our interest, especially inexpensive European or Japanese cars or type of customizing/reconstructions/restorations we appreciated, but as we got older, we eventually realized their enthusiasm and interest is not that different than ours and we hope it’ll last a lifetime, just like ours has.

[edinmass]

Floor sweepings cars are ok……as long as they are represented as such……and can offer young people a first step into the hobby of early cars. 

[JV Puleo]

I agree with Ed on this...or they are like my car, resurrected from a pile of parts that would have been unrealistic, if not impossible to restore if you had to pay someone for the work. The real issue is how well they are put together. I'd guess that 90% of the time they are slapped together with a wish and a prayer but we have to remember that a lot of the so-called "restored"  cars are worn out wrecks with a flashy paint job and new upholstery. One need only follow a couple of the threads here, like Matt Harwood's Lincoln and the Olds DCR in Belgium to get an appreciation how little value some collectors place on mechanical condition.

 

Of course, that's what keeps Ed in business!

Edited October 3, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Unlike some old cars , most Model T stuff I encounter is obviously the veteran of lots of miles and hard use. At least almost all of it is available repro. But I get the feeling quite a bit of what is currently on the market is of somewhat lower quality than original Ford parts.

 The speedster version like I am slowly piecing together has two main advantages over a stock T. Number one is that I can locate the seat  further back than on a stock T. I am just shy of 6 Ft. 2in. and really don't fit  in a stock T with any sort of comfort. 

 Number two is that a speedster can be quite a bit lighter than a stock T. Any weight shed is worthwhile when it comes to braking distances. Helps a bit with acceleration as well.

[Tph479]

16 hours ago, edinmass said:

In your climate, you can park it outside with just a cover……..and the car won’t be any worse for the wear. Model T’s are great fun. Easy to service. And simple to dial in. There is no downside on pricing…….and you can haul them with an everyday “mom mobile” so you can even get away for a tour without breaking the bank. Believe it or not, the hardest thing about owning a T is finding a “good” one………in other words most over the years had a bunch of replacement parts that make it difficult to find one that isn’t a floor sweepings car. It takes about a year of study and looking around to get comfortable buying something that isn’t a mess. One advantage is if you don’t care about 1915 or earlier is post 1920 T’s that are assemblages can be bought for 6-7k. Less money than a lawnmower. A local friend bought a 1924 touring that he drove home 30 miles for 4800 dollars……..who says the hobby is not affordable to get your foot through the door. Buy a T, you won’t regret it. 

 

 

Here is a picture of the Model T meet from this summers Baraboo, Wisconsin tour. There was a fair share of young people and younger families on the tour. The cars at a model t meet run the spectrum from cars with needs to exquisite show cars.
 

Most people do not know that when new Model T’s were built with a lot of precision engineering and were of high quality especially for the price.  There is a reason that a lot of guys with bigger brass cars also have a T.

 

Fine point judging in the T world ranks up there with the corvette and duesenberg circles and there are alot of nice cars out there.
 

Model T’s are inexpensive way to get into the hobby with alot of club and part support. There is a reason they made 15 million of them and they are simple to learn how to operate.

 

fyi- For those who think a T are underpowered, my friend built a dual overhead cam rajo model t engine that is fuel injected and dyno’d I think at 350hp. Yes you can have alot of fun with a T!

[oldcarfudd]

Too bad the closest car to the camera is an A!  But the T clubs generally welcome As on their tours.

[Packard enthus.]

A PERSPECTIVE ON YOUNG PEOPLE & OLD CARS...

 

A personal story to give some perspective of the generation problem.   As in the old expression..."times change but people dont"...!

 

It is a hot evening in Palm Springs, California.   Then as now,  I love driving my '38  Packard Twelve....a fast, powerful car by any standard.   To be honest...then as now...I "drive it like I stole it".....!

 

The "then" in this particular perspective.....was the fall of 1959.   The event had wrapped up...(a joint event between us in the So. Calif. Region of the Classic Car Club Of America....and the local HCCA)    in a now long-gone fancy hotel).  ( was, admittedly...a 19 year old "squirrel" when behind the wheel..even my Packard Twelve.....o.k...especially when behind the wheel of my Packard Twelve.......(0.K....to be honest.....I still am !)

 

Me being me....i just had to "peel rubber" as I accelerated out of the parking lot.    Lucky me and the guy in the big "brass era" car I ALMOST rear-ended on Palm Canyon Drive...that I have fast reflexes,...locking up the brakes of my 6,000 lb. play-toy just in time.

 

Shaken up...at what ALMOST happened....I screamed obscenities at the guy in the "brass era" car.....(oh..I should explain....that car had, typical of its era, lighting by accetelyne gas - produced by its on-board carbide generator.....so those tail-lights of that era weren't all that bright....!)

 

What did "squirrel me"  scream at the guy.....(cleaned up for this forum)     'WHAT IN HELL IS THE MATTER WITH YOU.....GOING OUT ON A PUBLIC ROAD IN A FORTY YEAR OLD CAR"......

Edited October 5, 2023 by Packard enthus. (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I got a kick out of the naming of the generations. "What are we going to called that oldest group?"

 

"Well, there must being something."

 

[1937hd45]

On 5/11/2023 at 8:35 PM, MCHinson said:

The largest  majority of people entering the hobby have always been those who are somewhere in the area of 45 to 60 years of age. That is when most people have reached the point that they have the disposable income for a hobby car, and are more likely to have garage space or the ability to afford to pay for garage space. It does not surprise me that the Gen X group of hobbyists would now be larger than Baby Boomers and Pre-Boomers portion of the hobby. None of us is going to live forever, but despite all of the gloom and doom predictions, it looks like the younger generations are still interested in the antique car hobby. The hobby will still be alive and well after most of us aren't. 

I was 10 years old when Mom dropped me off at the local HCCA annual meet here in town in 1961 in a BRAND NEW Ford. , The show had a 1942 cut off and I don't play to ever change my definition of "Antique Automobiles"

[keithb7]

Ay 52 I don’t qualify as part of the up-coming young generation, however I would be tickled to acquire a model T. What’s the attraction? Why? 
 

The car’s iconic past. The car that was such a massive success. Half the cars in the word were Model T at one point. The affordable, fixable car that changed the lives of so many. It brought secluded farmer’s wives and families to town easily and quickly. The massive behemoth car company Ford. The quirky downright stubborn ways of Henry Ford and the resulting car. I’ve read a few fascinating books about Ford and his company, up until he died. 
 

What’s hold me back from buying one? Brakes and power. Seriously. I live in a mountainous area.  A long hill with 11% grade down and back up every time I leave the house. Drivers often seen speeding at 50 mph on that hill. No white lines and no shoulders. Nowhere to go. Poor rear lights and its slower than any car that modern driver expects to see on the road.

 

I’m holding out for a Model T when we re-settle some day. Perhaps move into town. Live in the valley. Where there are flat roads pretty much everywhere….Someday. 

[8E45E]

10 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Ay 52 I don’t qualify as part of the up-coming young generation, however I would be tickled to acquire a model T. What’s the attraction? Why? 
 

The car’s iconic past. The car that was such a massive success. Half the cars in the word were Model T at one point. The affordable, fixable car that changed the lives of so many. It brought secluded farmer’s wives and families to town easily and quickly. The massive behemoth car company Ford. The quirky downright stubborn ways of Henry Ford and the resulting car. I’ve read a few fascinating books about Ford and his company, up until he died. 
 

What’s hold me back from buying one? Brakes and power. Seriously. I live in a mountainous area.  A long hill with 11% grade down and back up every time I leave the house. Drivers often seen speeding at 50 mph on that hill. No white lines and no shoulders. Nowhere to go. Poor rear lights and its slower than any car that modern driver expects to see on the road.

 

I’m holding out for a Model T when we re-settle some day. Perhaps move into town. Live in the valley. Where there are flat roads pretty much everywhere….Someday. 

Perhaps the 'our generation' equivalent is the 36hp VW Beetles and Type 2 vans.

 

You are probably old enough to remember them being driven daily, and how they held up traffic while on uphill grades (especially in BC).   The vans were often used by tradesmen, including plumbers, electricians, etc.

Unfortunately, peoples' tolerance level for these older inherently slow vehicles on the road today has declined substantially, but it has not prevented the prices of old Beetles and Type 2 vans from climbing.  Last I read, a few of the Type 2 window vans have sold in the three-figures, despite their lack of agility on the road.

 

Craig

 

 

[edinmass]

 

The VW van market was being driven by one particular collector who has something like 20 OR 30 VANS. In reality almost any post 1950 cars were made in such huge numbers that supply seldom gets to a point where the price doubles or triples in a short period of time. I expect the VW vans will be back in the mid 50's sooner than anyone thinks.........

Edited October 10, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

6 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

The VW van market was being driven by one particular collector who has something like 20 OR 30 VANS. In reality almost any post 1950 cars were made in such huge numbers that supply seldom gets to a point where the price doubles or triples in a short period of time. I expect the VW vans will be back in the mid 50's sooner than anyone thinks.........

Same kinda of thing with Broncos. When Ford came out with the new bronco a couple of years ago the price of anything old was sky high to the point of absurdity. 150k + for modded ones!! Looking at the last couple of auctions the prices seem to be averaging about 60k now, with the 'nicer' ones not hitting a reserve for a no sale. Pure hype vehicles, I call them flavor of the month.

[John Bloom]

@TAKerry  it is interesting to see a “flavor of the month” marque and model.  I always wonder if the hyper inflation is a sustainable new price point ( a permanent correction per se), or a crested wave that will go back to normal levels soon. 
 

ive had several conversations with a buddy about this. Two models we talk a lot about are Dinos and early 911’s.  
 

It seems like just 20 years ago, a decent driving Ferrari Dino could be bought for 40-50 K.......  man has that changed. 
 

my uncle was the President of the Porsche Club of Ohio back in the late 70’s/early 80’s and had lots of them and exposed me to them when I was 18 ish.  I remember again what seems like 20 years ago and a 70-72 911 T or E could be bought for 10K. The S commanded a premium and might have been 15K.  That ship has also sailed, early 911’s went berserk and seem to be sustaining it. 
 

this provokes two thoughts in me.....why do some reset to a higher price and sustain it, and others fall back down in time.  I think the fickleness of the hobby/market is the main influence but production numbers are also a part of the equation.  They didn’t make a ton of Dinos. 
 

a fun exercise is trying to identifying what is the next car poised to have rapid appreciation in the next 5 years (doubling or tripling in value).  I have my thoughts as I’m sure others here do as well. 

 

 

[edinmass]

Buy what you like, then the market doesn't matter. At this point, after owning so many cars, I only try and buy something that I will keep till the end. No worry about that "out" price!

[Terry Bond]

Where to begin with this topic???  I guess just a few comments will have to suffice -

Love my Model T.  Of course the 67 GTO is my second childhood on wheels (stock of course).  I'm impressed by the numbers of younger folks getting into early cars - Model Ts, and other brass age stuff too!   At Hershey this year I spent time with several younger people who are seriously collecting SERIOUS QUALITY early automobilia - not signs, "vintage" and repro fake crap, but early prints, brass era advertising items, etc. I admire their keen eye and great taste in adding to their collections.  They are genuinely interested in motoring history and learning all about what they have chosen to collect.  Based on my personal observation, I'm feeling pretty good about the future. 

 

Take your role as a mentor seriously and you'll enjoy the ride.

Terry

[Pfeil]

2 hours ago, John Bloom said:

@TAKerry  it is interesting to see a “flavor of the month” marque and model.  I always wonder if the hyper inflation is a sustainable new price point ( a permanent correction per se), or a crested wave that will go back to normal levels soon. 
 

ive had several conversations with a buddy about this. Two models we talk a lot about are Dinos and early 911’s.  
 

It seems like just 20 years ago, a decent driving Ferrari Dino could be bought for 40-50 K.......  man has that changed. 
 

my uncle was the President of the Porsche Club of Ohio back in the late 70’s/early 80’s and had lots of them and exposed me to them when I was 18 ish.  I remember again what seems like 20 years ago and a 70-72 911 T or E could be bought for 10K. The S commanded a premium and might have been 15K.  That ship has also sailed, early 911’s went berserk and seem to be sustaining it. 
 

this provokes two thoughts in me.....why do some reset to a higher price and sustain it, and others fall back down in time.  I think the fickleness of the hobby/market is the main influence but production numbers are also a part of the equation.  They didn’t make a ton of Dinos. 
 

a fun exercise is trying to identifying what is the next car poised to have rapid appreciation in the next 5 years (doubling or tripling in value).  I have my thoughts as I’m sure others here do as well. 

 

 

I think you might be seeing it today in VW Beetle, strangely in replica cars, the Porsche speedster and 550 have already left the station. 914-1.7, 1.8 & 2.0 have surged while the 914-6 was always up there.

[1935Packard]

4 hours ago, John Bloom said:

@TAKerry  it is interesting to see a “flavor of the month” marque and model.  I always wonder if the hyper inflation is a sustainable new price point ( a permanent correction per se), or a crested wave that will go back to normal levels soon. 
 

ive had several conversations with a buddy about this. Two models we talk a lot about are Dinos and early 911’s.  
 

It seems like just 20 years ago, a decent driving Ferrari Dino could be bought for 40-50 K.......  man has that changed. 
 

my uncle was the President of the Porsche Club of Ohio back in the late 70’s/early 80’s and had lots of them and exposed me to them when I was 18 ish.  I remember again what seems like 20 years ago and a 70-72 911 T or E could be bought for 10K. The S commanded a premium and might have been 15K.  That ship has also sailed, early 911’s went berserk and seem to be sustaining it. 
 

this provokes two thoughts in me.....why do some reset to a higher price and sustain it, and others fall back down in time.  I think the fickleness of the hobby/market is the main influence but production numbers are also a part of the equation.  They didn’t make a ton of Dinos. 
 

a fun exercise is trying to identifying what is the next car poised to have rapid appreciation in the next 5 years (doubling or tripling in value).  I have my thoughts as I’m sure others here do as well. 

 

 

I'd love an early 911, although not at their current price point. To my mind, it makes sense that they're staying pricey:  They're beautiful, sporty, reliable, instantly recognizable, and still in keeping with the current 911, which is still a wonderful car.  It's a desirable package; I just wish so many people didn't agree with that.

[TAKerry]

I think there are certain cars that will continue to hold value and even climb. Ferraris and porsches will always do good. What I am referring to 'flavor of the month' kinda of thing are the cars that get a lot of instant fame and hype. Of course I am referencing auction activity for the most part. Late 60's early 70's square body gm pickups are 'hot' right now. Its the ones that the media says are 'the car to have', then everyone with money has to have one! I mentioned broncos, they went through a phase a couple of years ago when the new ones were released. These are vehicles that I think have a somewhat selective audience, all the people that are willing to pay stupid money do so within about a 2 year span, the market becomes saturated then another hot car for the minute comes around and what was bought for 150k may sell for 50k. What will be next, who knows. 

[edinmass]

Myers Manx, Jollies, Broncos, VW Bus, the list goes on. Problem with the big dollar Porsche numbers is the cars survive in huge numbers, just like corvettes. It’s like the Ferrari market. The early stuff is truly rare, the modern stuff is just another production car. They have tripled production in the last decade. Buying a new super car is easy, paying to keep it on the road is another story. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

I forgot about jollies. They def. fit the bill.

[oldcarfudd]

I have 5 brass-era cars.  None is a trailer queen; they've all been on tour this year.  They're slow uphill and slower downhill, because I don't let them get away from me coming down.  That's OK; I don't drive them when I'm in a hurry.  Horseless Carriage Gazette editor Tracy Lesher's boys sell packages of blinkie lights you can put on the back of a car to wake up the daydreamers behind you.  The cars seem to enjoy the hills.  Whenever I come to a serious uphill in my single-cylinder Cadillac, the car and I enter into negotiations as to how we're going to get to the top; somehow, we always do, and we always get to the lunch stop while there's still food. I've driven on back roads in Vermont, western Maryland, West Virginia, western Pennsylvania - places that ain't flat.  My Model T is bone stock and goes anywhere; if I've got at least 4 gallons in my 10-gallon gravity-feed tank, it'll just about climb a tree.  Get a T and join either or both Model T clubs and (if it's a pre-'16) the HCCA, and come on tours.  It'll be a whole new world!

[8E45E]

15 hours ago, TAKerry said:

What I am referring to 'flavor of the month' kinda of thing are the cars that get a lot of instant fame and hype. Of course I am referencing auction activity for the most part. Late 60's early 70's square body gm pickups are 'hot' right now. Its the ones that the media says are 'the car to have', then everyone with money has to have one! 

My definition of "Flavor of the Month" cars are the ones that become instant movie or TV stars, and then rapidly blend into the mainstream with other vintage cars of a similar age.   Two of several examples come to mind; 1958 Plymouths had a brief shine in the spotlight, as did 1976 Pacers, and then quickly fell from grace once the shows left the box office and ratings charts.  

 

Craig

[58L-Y8]

One major factor that drives the first-generation Bronco and VW van market, at least in the rust-beset regions: both dissolved before your very eyes when driven on salted winter roads.  My late brother had a couple of the "SUV-Falcons" that were so savagely rusted the doors when opened could be lifted and move the cowl!  Legions of those ended up in local junkyards before they were even ten years old. 

Of the VW vans, in spite of rust perforation that must have allowed the exhaust fumes to be drawn into the body, they just kept running like the Energizer Bunny.   We joked the guys who drove those VW vans didn't know whether the 'buzz' they were experiencing was from what they had smoked recently or exhaust fumes...