Increasing value makes it worth less. (to valuable to drive)

[Leif in Calif]

I visited an old friend yesterday. We went to lunch in a car I sold him for $500 in 1968. It's a '57 Porsche and its  looking a little shabby these days...the $250 paint job he got in the late 70's isn't holding up well.

He told me he doesn't like to dive it as much these days because it's become so valuable (+/- $100K). It occurred to me that this increase in value really is having a negative impact on his ownership. He was thinking about getting it painted but I told him it's a bad idea because a nice paint job on a 356 these days is going to be north of ten grand and then he REALLY won't want to drive it. I think we should feel fortunate if our cars don't appreciate. 

[1937hd45]

I've always thought it was odd that some people post guards around a 1970's family fourdoor while others pull up in a FULL CCCA CLASSIC park at the curb and go into a restaurant for dinner, same thing with a new Mcclarren. 

[Rusty_OToole]

It's all relative. If you had the dough of a Seinfeld or Leno a $100,000 car would be a nice little beater.

[alsancle]

You gave him good advice to not paint the car.
 

If the paint condition is appropriate for the condition of the rest of the car, interior, chrome, etc., then painting it will just make everything else look worth.

 

also, if your friend is afraid to enjoy the car he should just sell it. Find something cheaper that he can use.

[gossp]

Your friend has a problem I cannot relate to as I find the only way for a vehicles value to significantly appreciate is for me to sell it, but, there is a bit of joy in ownership to a poor condition version of any car. Doing repairs or even regular maintenance around a nice paint job or pristine interior is stressful at best. I thoroughly enjoy working on a car with a finish you can set a greasy wrench on without worry, equally fun is hopping in for a test drive in the same clothes you were just under the car in. 
 

If a car represents a significant or life changing amount of money for the owner, it needs to be protected and monitored just like an investment portfolio. I am glad I have a 401k and an ira, but neither of them bring me any joy whatsoever and their maintenance is a stressful but necessary evil.
 

Not being able or willing to take on the financial hit to repair a car if something happens can be another deterrent to enjoying ownership. 
 

There is likely a large number of Porsche collectors out there that would give him a Porsche he can enjoy in significantly better condition with a glove box full of cash and everyone could get on to enjoying the hobby more. 

[TAKerry]

With the cars paint being a bit 'tired' I would leave it that way and enjoy the heck out of it. Make sure its insured for replacement value and stop worrying. Otherwise like AJ said, sell it and take up golf. My car is nowhere near Porsche status but the value has doubled since I have owned it. I spent 5 years restoring and was afraid to drive it because it looked so good. My son made a comment a couple of years ago and I decided to drive it as much as possible. I cant use it for work so that keeps it to weekends. But now I will take it out for dinner, go for a ride just because, and hit up starbucks. I am not purposely going to run it ragged just because but its no longer a trophy sitting in the garage to look at. His comment was I am not getting any younger and I wasnt gettting any enjoyment letting it sit. It can always be refurbished but I only have a finite amount of time here. 

[EmTee]

1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

His comment was I am not getting any younger and I wasnt gettting any enjoyment letting it sit. It can always be refurbished but I only have a finite amount of time here. 

Sounds like you raised him right... 

[plymouthcranbrook]

I knew I was smart when I bought a 52 Plymouth 22 years ago. Probably not worth much more than I paid for it and I am not afraid to take it anywhere.

[JamesR]

I look admiringly and jealously at the show quality paint jobs on really nice cars at events. I would like to own cars like that, but I think about how I would feel about myself with the self-inflicted wounds I have put on my cars. One time I pulled a little too far into the garage, tapped the shelving at the wall, and a can of aerosol something fell off the shelf and put a ding in the top of my fender. And that hasn't been the worse thing I've done to my old cars. Even so, my old cars are mostly presentable enough that I won't drive on gravel roads. I love driving old vehicles on country roads, though, and so many roads around here are gravel. I'm thinking I need a '65 Ford pickup a with cracked windows, a bad paint job and many dings for gravel road duty.

[Paul Dobbin]

17 hours ago, Leif in Calif said:

 

He told me he doesn't like to dive it as much these days because it's become so valuable (+/- $100K). It occurred to me that this increase in value really is having a negative impact on his ownership.  

     A car like that is more fun to drive to a old car event than many restored cars.   It's kind of like being in the HPOF Class. 

     People who know old cars appreciate that the car is still being enjoyed, while the Sharks and the Dreamers who think

     Facto-Bake paint  job and seat cover restoration for $600 would make it a #100,000 car.       

     Those  conversations are often very entertaining.   To me, the thrill of a car like that is to keep it fully functional and use

     it until I can't.   Keep in mind that keeping them in that kind of condition takes a lot of skill and know how too.   

     My 57 Porsche Speedster was that way when I sold it for $1400, but I still love it and think of all fun we had with it in Europe

     and Ameica while we owned it.   Same goes for many of the 110 cars we've owned since the Speedster.

 

      

Edited April 8, 2023 by Paul Dobbin
Re-position text and add picture (see edit history)

[JCHansen1]

20 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

I've always thought it was odd that some people post guards around a 1970's family fourdoor while others pull up in a FULL CCCA CLASSIC park at the curb and go into a restaurant for dinner, same thing with a new Mcclarren. 

Indeed. I'm reminded of a send-off gathering I attended at the Gilmore several years ago when their sports car exhibit was taken down. It was a rainy April afternoon, and a couple dozen owners came to gather their cars with enclosed transporters, with one notable exception. The owner of a stunning Gullwing 300SL chose to drive his back to metro Detroit that afternoon in the pouring rain, which I found quite impressive. Any number of things could have gone wrong, but to him using and enjoying the car was worth the risk. Good on him as far as I'm concerned...

[zepher]

I drive my Pierce all over and even park it in public places while I go inside and do things like enjoy a meal.

 

[Bryan G]

With a car like this, how could a little wear and tear, a few more miles, really make much difference to its value? It sounds like an owner being held hostage by his car. I think of a friend with a 50s sports car in the garage, last driven in the 90s. Close to 25 years now of denied pleasure, for what? So his kids can sell it as a barn find someday?

[31nash880]

I think these same things everytime I see an ultra low mile car for sale. Bought but never enjoyed.

[alsancle]

Driving the car is highest and best use for most of us.  But there are many ways to enjoy the cars and sometimes that means stuffing 100 of them in a warehouse.   Everybody gets their jollies in different ways.  Ultimately we are just keeping our minds occupied with something we find interesting.

[Walt G]

18 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Everybody gets their jollies in different ways

this is so true, for years I had friends who collected not just cars but other auto related items: toys, literature, photographs, emblems, hubcaps, car mascots/hood ornaments some were happy to "share the joy" and others hoarded what they had and it was never seen by anyone until they past and the collection was sold off. For some it is the satisfaction of the find and purchase and the item then gets put away not to be looked at much, Some enjoy the concours , to be able to pose with their machine and later tell all where they had been , some of us enjoy "cruise nights' no fuss, no status, no posing ,  just car people "hanging out'.  Some of us enjoy all of that to a certain extent.  As the adage says "different strokes for different folks".

Happy Easter everyone.

Walt

Edited April 9, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

In 1983 I made the decision to set my standard on having a collector car that was in a condition of a well cared for 10 year old car. And 10 year old cars showed their age a little more at that time.

 

I was on a trip at the time. When I got home I finessed the concept and had four very fulfilling decades in the interim.

 

In January I bought an 18 year old car that I intend to treat as a collector car. It was very well cared for. I bought new leather for the driver seat cushion, a driver's door stop check, and a driver's door inner weather seal. I drove it around town on our sunny afternoon yesterday and that is what it takes for my hobby and to keep me happy.

 

I just hope it begins to look dated soon.

[nat]

     If it's too good to use it's no use at all.  Bulky art.

[TAKerry]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

Driving the car is highest and best use for most of us.  But there are many ways to enjoy the cars and sometimes that means stuffing 100 of them in a warehouse.   Everybody gets their jollies in different ways.  Ultimately we are just keeping our minds occupied with something we find interesting.

Perfect example is the auction you just attended. Did this fellow really need all of those original type cars stored in a building, basically sitting there rotting away. No, but I bet he enjoyed the collecting process. 

[alsancle]

Just now, TAKerry said:

Perfect example is the auction you just attended. Did this fellow really need all of those original type cars stored in a building, basically sitting there rotting away. No, but I bet he enjoyed the collecting process. 

 

Kerry,  I was never in the dealership building when Mark had it setup but I understand it was the coolest thing in the world.  He could rotate cars in and out.  The Ford collection was in the basement which held another 30 cars or so.    Yes, he had stuff stored away in a warehouse but the dealership was the ultimate man cave - at least to me.

 

 

[TAKerry]

So with that I am assuming that the location of the auction was where the owner had them stored and displayed?  I was going to make a comment on how beautiful the buildings were.

[zepher]

2 hours ago, Walt G said:

this is so true, for years I had friends who collected not just cars but other auto related items: toys, literature, photographs, emblems, hubcaps, car mascots/hood ornaments

I just wish someone didn't enjoy 'collecting' auto memorabilia and items so much so that they stole the gas cap off my Rickenbacker back in the 70's.
I have never seen another one for sale, ever. The original gas cap had the Rickenbacker Hat in the Ring logo on it. 

The car was parked outside a restaurant with a bunch of other old cars, the gas cap got swiped and they were even bold enough to swipe the porthole hard top off a '56 T-Bird at the same time.

Edited April 9, 2023 by zepher (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

8 minutes ago, zepher said:

I just wish someone didn't enjoy 'collecting' auto memorabilia and items so much so that they stole the gas cap off my Rickenbacker back in the 70's.
I have never seen another one for sale, ever. The original gas cap had the Rickenbacker Hat in the Ring logo on it. 

The car was parked outside a restaurant with a bunch of other old cars, the gas cap got swiped and they were even bold enough to swipe the porthole hard top off a '56 T-Bird at the same time.

A guy told me once that he had a hood ornament swiped while his car was in a show. Now thats lowlife!!

[zepher]

3 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

A guy told me once that he had a hood ornament swiped while his car was in a show. Now thats lowlife!!

 

At the PAS meet in Oregon, one of the Pierce Arrows on tour had the mascot swiped while it was parked on the street during a lunch stop.

We have a chain with a little bar on one of our mascots so you can't completely remove the mascot while the radiator is hot.  Most of the chain and the bar is completely submerged in hot coolant so messing with it to remove it is very tough when it's hot.

It's hard enough to remove it when it's cold, let alone when it's hot.

[60FlatTop]

I have enjoyed owning cars that were pretty much just the shape of the original sitting in my garage.

 

Sitting in my pneumatic draftsman's chair looking at the 3,011th Jaguar XKE ever made suited me just fine. I sold it and many times wish I had not. Never realistically thinking of driving it was never an issue.

 

 

[Guest]

If you don't go drive it its nothing more than a show car whether its just for tours, shows, or your garage.  I believe cars should be driven and act accordingly.  As far as club membership I'm not a member of many or really any clubs rather I just use the cars.  My 38 Lincoln has logged many miles daily usage around town, even to the boatyard when working with the tools carried inside.  Of course I have friends that have and baby their cars.  They have a hard time figuring out why I can hop in the car and it all works whereas when they take theirs out maybe once every few months there's always something not perfect.  The speedster would get more use except it's difficult to carry groceries.  A beautiful show car would just make me too nervous to drive better something imperfect that you can enjoy.  

 

Remember it's only worth money when you sell it, and then it's only worth what it's sold for.

 

[Walt G]

The expression on that young lads face says it all, sends the great message we all need to see more often. I am sure he is thinking - can't wait until I can reach the pedals with my feet. thank you for posting that.

[plymouthcranbrook]

When I was in the Dairyland Region of the POC there was a member who had made it his life's hobby to reacquire all the cars his family had owned when he was younger. He had one or maybe two pole buildings that were full of the cars.  I can’t remember seeing him drive any but we did visit the collection on a tour once.  I asked him once how he did it and his answer was it wasn’t hard as most of the cars were bought and then sold locally and relatively easy to find. He has passed as of a few years ago and I have no idea what happened to the cars as Dairyland and I went our separate ways about 10 years ago. 

[Frank DuVal]

Dave Cammack told our Corvair group visiting his Tucker collection he thought it was great we could drive our collector cars. He never drove his Tuckers due to high value and high insurance rates if he insured them to be driven. He drove them in/out of the building to wash them that was it. 

[alsancle]

11 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

Dave Cammack told our Corvair group visiting his Tucker collection he thought it was great we could drive our collector cars. He never drove his Tuckers due to high value and high insurance rates if he insured them to be driven. He drove them in/out of the building to wash them that was it. 

I’m not sure I understand why. Tuckers do have a reputation for not working.

 

I know of plenty of guys with Duesenburgs worth twice as much as any tucker that they drive into the ground.

Edited April 10, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

38 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I’m not sure I understand why. Tuckers do have a reputation for not working.

 

I know of plenty of guys with Duesenburgs worth twice as much as any tucker that they drive into the ground.

 

Something your dad said to me many, many years ago when I commented on his freshly restored 540K. "I restored all the fun out of it." I will not only NEVER forget what he said, but I am also often re-quoting him."

[Buffalowed Bill]

IMHO it comes down to how an owner feels about his car and how he wants to use it. Does a guy want to drive his car or show it? Is he comfortable taking it to a cruse night in the condition it's in? Only the owner can answer those questions. 

 

Decades ago I was faced with the dilemma of what to do with some of my cars, and punted and became a car collector. In my world there are show cars and driver cars. I try never to mix up my drivers and my show cars. Once someone looses sight of what the car was intended for, drives his show car, and tries to show his drivers he completely looses the comfort zone that he has developed for himself. After driving his show car (touring with it) it will never be a competitive show car again. Unless of course the owner has the unlimited resources of a Nethercutt or Leno. The monied people have the ability to go out on tour and then put hundreds of hours into detailing.

 

I tried to drive a car that I had just restored, 180 miles, one way, to a concours and then show it. It worked sort of, I was awarded a second place after doing about 12 hours of detailing before putting it out on the show field- never again. I don't have that kind of resources and I'm too old to do much of the work myself. As for showing a driver car-I feel it's usually a dead end. Unless the car is a documented all original, a driver car is seldom going to be competitive when critical judging is the format. 

 

Back in the 90's, the last of the golden age of the car hobby, the choices were simpler. Restoration costs were reasonable (more reasonable then today) and cars were appreciating rapidly in value. The mindset was that everything had to be restored. There were three kinds of cars-restored cars, cars waiting their turn to be restored, and parts cars. In those days the little guy could rationalize doing the restoration on a car because the hope was that the car would be worth more. Today it's a crap shoot. 

 

I've never worried too much about cost. If I could afford to buy a car, or upgrade one I would do it if not.....IMO today my moto if in doubt leave it alone. Any work done needs to be a no-doubter.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, West Peterson said:

 

Something your dad said to me many, many years ago when I commented on his freshly restored 540K. "I restored all the fun out of it." I will not only NEVER forget what he said, but I am also often re-quoting him."

 

Worse than that,  the guy that bought it (one of the biggest dealers in Germany and still active) told him he would have paid much much more if had left the car alone.

Edited April 10, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

37 minutes ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

IMHO it comes down to how an owner feels about his car and how he wants to use it. Does a guy want to drive his car or show it? Is he comfortable taking it to a cruse night in the condition it's in? Only the owner can answer those questions. 

 

Decades ago I was faced with the dilemma of what to do with some of my cars, and punted and became a car collector. In my world there are show cars and driver cars. I try never to mix up my drivers and my show cars. Once someone looses sight of what the car was intended for, drives his show car, and tries to show his drivers he completely looses the comfort zone that he has developed for himself. After driving his show car (touring with it) it will never be a competitive show car again. Unless of course the owner has the unlimited resources of a Nethercutt or Leno. The monied people have the ability to go out on tour and then put hundreds of hours into detailing.

 

I tried to drive a car that I had just restored, 180 miles, one way, to a concours and then show it. It worked sort of, I was awarded a second place after doing about 12 hours of detailing before putting it out on the show field- never again. I don't have that kind of resources and I'm too old to do much of the work myself. As for showing a driver car-I feel it's usually a dead end. Unless the car is a documented all original, a driver car is seldom going to be competitive when critical judging is the format. 

 

Back in the 90's, the last of the golden age of the car hobby, the choices were simpler. Restoration costs were reasonable (more reasonable then today) and cars were appreciating rapidly in value. The mindset was that everything had to be restored. There were three kinds of cars-restored cars, cars waiting their turn to be restored, and parts cars. In those days the little guy could rationalize doing the restoration on a car because the hope was that the car would be worth more. Today it's a crap shoot. 

 

I've never worried too much about cost. If I could afford to buy a car, or upgrade one I would do it if not.....IMO today my moto if in doubt leave it alone. Any work done needs to be a no-doubter.

 

I believe many will disagree with you. The number of cars winning top awards at shows which are also used as "drivers" are numerous.... and are not owned by the Nethercutts of the world. Most concours do NOT contain "critical judging," so I suspect your "second place" finish at the concours had more to do with the judges' opinions rather than its fine condition I'm sure it was in.

I have to agree with you, though, that the amount of work involved in detailing a car for a show is overwhelming. I recently took our Packard Speedster through all levels of AACA's critical judging system, and started with a car that had more than 20,000 miles on its restoration. 

 

[Buffalowed Bill]

Sorry I rankled you West. I did say that it was my opinion and I assume that what has worked for me is not going to be appropriate for some. It's very rare that I have a car judged today. I did, however, just pull a car out of the Americas Car Museum after a four year stay. It's rare that I take an old car out on an extended tour these days. I'm 79 years old, Mary and I struggle with anything much more the a couple hundred mile trip in an old car. However, we do travel in one of our 30yo daily transportation cars and enjoy the notoriety of diving a car seldom seen today. Wishing that I was 60 yrs. old is not going to make it so. But it's all good the Dude abides.

[Rivguy]

It seems that the ownership of a collector car has more to do with emotion, than money. There are those that are lucky (maybe smart enough) to have bought a car that they really wanted, when they could still afford it, because they were still affordable, and have held onto it. Now it has become very valuable. They might lose sight of the fact that besides the initial cost to purchase it, and maintenance done over the years, not restoration,  the "value" is only hypothetical upon it's sale. If you never sell it you'll never realize that profit. 

I think that most of us have bought brand new vehicles that we enjoyed, but we kind of dreaded the inevitable first ding, chip or scratch.  Then we either fixed it, or if it wasn't that noticeable, we just kind of accepted it and forgot about it. I like the idea of the well maintained "ten year old" car standard Something that is obviously cared for, but displays it's years of use. I've currently got a couple of " Fifteenish" year old hobby cars, that I've done a bit of light touch up cosmetic work to, my focus is on preservation, but they still look pretty good. 

Of course if a guy wants to keep a car as close to perfection as he can, well, have at it! Whatever makes you happy. I think that most of us are looking for a happy middle ground.

[Rudys Toy Store]

I drove my 1961 300SL Roadster from Wisconsin to South Florida just last month! cars are made to be driven my friends 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Rudys Toy Store (see edit history)

[oldcarfudd]

What a ride THAT must have been!

 

[jp1gt]

I personally like cars not to be worth much, you have more fun with them. I pulled a 70 hemicuda out of a barn. Changed the oil and took it to the wed nite gruge races. Now that was fun--

Edited May 2, 2023 by jp1gt
pic (see edit history)