The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts

[SC38dls]

12 hours ago, edinmass said:

Its a car, not a fish. And I hate getting wet!

It’s not JUST a car!  It’s a mysterious, magical, fascinating, compelling machine that has grabbed our attention thru your telling it’s story!  It’s survived in an original state for over a 100 years that has captivated something in every one that has read the story. It’s a community vehicle as you and Phil made us all a part of this tail. Your detailed description of checking and repairing every part of the car has us intrigued. You may not realize it but there will be more than the three of you on this tour. There will be a couple hundred of us along for the ride, taking every turn, bouncing over every bump, worrying about every odd sound. This may be just in our heads, vicariously thru your post and pics but we are coming along on this tour. And with all of us crammed into the Great White how can you get too wet? You could always have AJ stand up in the backseat holding an umbrella over you & Phil!  
Have fun. 
 

Edited April 18, 2021 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Evaluation of the 1917 White GL Touring, Body by Rubay.
 

 

Thought it would be a fun exercise to take a critical look at my car, using my experience as an advisor and collection manager to analyze the car against what was available in the era, and as a modern day collector car. It will be as scientific as possible, no woke BS, just a straight forward intellectual analysis that one use to be able to have in higher learning institutions.........without the ridiculous feel good accommodations  that are the way of the world today. Here we go.........

 

 

No car is perfect. They can all be improved. Very few cars are manufactured without regards to cost. 98 percent of anything produced with wheels was designed to be just good enough. Here we shall look at what was being built for the truly wealthy, people who came of age during the Gilded Age, where there was no federal income taxes, and craftsmanship for those who could afford it was demanded, not requested. People who wanted to have the finest things in life that money could buy.........an era that is long past.

 

White was a prolific early quality car builder, and from 1906-1910 one could argue they were the most prolific builder of the worlds best automobiles.........and they happened to be steam cars. Several companies were really pushing the envelope with gasoline cars for size, power, and reliability. But for a short time, steam ruled the world over the road, and without doubt White Automobiles were the king of the road..........no one came close to manufacturing large quantities of super luxury automobiles.......no one, except White. Their machine work and castings were better than anyone else..........the reliability of their products was better than ANY gasoline engine at the time. They were making money hand over fist, and they knew nothing else on the planet would compare..........but their number one position wouldn’t last for long, and it would never be recovered.......in the world of automobiles. 
 

Please remember this analysis is strictly done in the 1917-1918 time frame, when this particular unit was available. Production seemed to start mid 1916 on this platform as far as testing goes, and by late 1916, this chassis was available to the general public. In price......White was at or near the top of automobile offerings. Not much was for sale in their price range. In 1917, you could buy two Cadillacs and a Ford for the price of this car. Factory bodies were offered, but the majority of White’s 1917 production seems to have been custom bodies. Scholarship is still murky, but White was absolutely doing their best to build the car to beat in the super luxury market.......they didn’t succeed........as there were other cars that surpassed their best effort. The cars that were “better” than a White were very few and far between. This analysis could go on for twenty pages, but I shall limit it into a compressed evaluation. He we go.........

 

 

We will look at engine, transmission, rear end, front end, chassis, ect.........all as individual subjects, and consider what else was available. Also, White made their entire car.......,they made their own carburetors, steering boxes, transmissions, clutch assemblies, ect. Very few car manufacturers of this era can make this claim.........they controlled everything........even their lights were purposefully built and styled for their specific car line up. Also, style was first truly emphasized by White......they were the first to break away from form follows function. Numerous examples can be given..........but simply no one else in the industry in 1917 was as conscious of style and design as the White Motor Company. 
 

Engine.......16 Valve High Power Four. Sounds fancy, and it was. A four valve per cylinder, mono-block T head. Nothing was ever seen like it. No one else ever managed to make this configuration of automobile engine......then or now. It was and is truly unique. Off to bed......more to follow tomorrow. Ed.
 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[BobinVirginia]

@edinmass

 

I just got schooled on White vehicles! Thanks man! Please continue with your non-woke information!!! 
 

Always a pleasure to learn about cars that are getting lost to time and how ingenious the manufacturers were before the bean counters took control. 

[Robert G. Smits]

Ed, your education of we readers has been phenomenal and entertaining at the same time.  Don't stop.  Have you ever considered converting this into  book form on your White automobile.  I would buy in a second.

[padgett]

"I hate getting wet!" In the middle of a Florida summer, it can be a blessing.

[edinmass]

Evaluation continued: Powerplant

 

Considering the year, 1917 was a time of great change in engine trends. Packard’s Twin Six of 1915, Cadillac going from a mid priced car to luxury and the beginning of their V-8. Most expensive cars were running straight sixes. T heads were fading away towards the standard L head configuration. There were a few odd balls out there.......OHV units, and too many other flash in the pan units to mention. Interestingly, White went from steam to gas quickly, and soon was making the leap from four to six cylinders. In a bizarre move, they dumped their six........a great design that made 60 hp........built in 1914-1916 (a four was also being built) and for 1917 went to their new generation engine.......the 16 Valve High Power was the formal name of the new “super four”. The car is a T head with mono block construction..........very strange set up. It was extremely high quality in design and construction. Overbuilt and almost beyond destruction. Huge bearings used in the rods and mains, larger than anything I have ever seen on a four cylinder car. Massive is an understatement when looking at the bearing surfaces. With the cross flow T head, the four valves offered better efficiency than a six. The horsepower of this four was rated at 72. My car is relatively low mileage, and the engine has never been opened up. The valve cover gaskets on the car are the factory ones installed 104 years ago. Currently the car has 82 pounds of compression in all four holes. A remarkable number that reflects how well the car breathes. The cars engine was designed to operate in a different rpm range than I had anticipated. Reflecting back on it, I was wrong to to expect it to operate like a modern four valve engine. The car makes all its horsepower and torque in the mid range. You can feel the power........and it has excess power in the 900 to 1400 rpm range. It’s very torquey and pulls hard, lug it down and if feels barely adequate. It will pull away on the flat ground easily in first, seconded, and even direct or third. In fourth gear, above 10 miles per hour it’s quite happy to slowly drive along. Direct is basically a in town gear for all conditions...........5mph to 40mph. Basically it feels like a V-16 Cadillac.......get it moving, get it in direct, and your fine. The fourth gear is really only useful over 40mph.............as it will drive fine in fourth at 20moh, but acceleration is sluggish till you get to 40......then the gloves come off and the rocket ship ride starts. The driving experience is easy, positive, and there are no shortcomings. It functions way above average compared to 95 percent of the cars in its era. Very few cars come close to the White’s driving performance. There are drawbacks to the power plant. While the 72 horse power is impressive and functions flawlessly, the lack of CID hinders the car to an extent. The car was positioned in the very top of the market competing head to head with the real big boys of automobile production. White was going up against the Twin Six, Silver Ghost, Crane Simplex, Pierce Arrow, and a few other high end oddballs. I would call the 16 Valve High Power engine “the little guy of the big boys”. It will eat a V-8 Cadillac alive. Hands down, no questions asked. It will keep up with the big boys...........on the flats. Hit the hills, and the giant sixes and V-12 will see it fade back in the pack. There is simply no substitute for displacement. Under  60 mph it’s on par with the Pierce, Packard, Crane, Ghost, ect........but after that, it falls off fast. Hit a hill, your going to be eating the others dust. Thus the White engine is an interesting experiment in improving the T head design, the end of an era. The cost and design of the White 16 Valve engine was just as expensive and complicated as the bigger sixes.......the design of the engine was............make it simple, make it strong, make it easy to maintain. They accomplished their goals. My conclusion is, the White 16 Valve engine was probably the finest T head made for efficiency and power per cubic inch. But it’s time had passed before it was ever introduced. It was the least glamorous of the big car power plants. They should have developed a four valve six like Pierce Arrow did. How does the White 16 Valve rate to the overall car market in 1917? I would rate a Ghost, Pierce, Twin Six, and Crane a 10. A Ford T would rate a 2. A Cadillac or Cole a 5.5-6. The White is a 7.5 and I can’t think of any particular engine between a White with a 7.5 rating, and the cars that score a 10. They took a shot at making a killer four. It was a good shot, but they missed the target.......for their price point was the same as the cars scoring 10 except the Rolls. They came up short in the super luxury category. They did manage to beat out 95 percent of what was on the road..........but they didn’t knock offs any “Kings of the Mountain “.  More later on the engine accessories, as they merit lots of comments.

Edited April 18, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[yachtflame]

Ed, we’re all crossing our fingers for you about the weather. With that top in the rain,  I’m not sure if you know if it was up or not!

[edinmass]

It’s an “all weather” seven passenger touring. All the weather that is outside the car will soon be inside,   just wait a few minutes! I have all the original side curtains. That will just delay the misery.
 

The above quote was from my good friend Jim Robbins of the CCCA. His advice.......never miss a chance to go to a cocktail party on a tour.........skip the days events due to weather if necessary. Make mine a double...........In honor of my long past friends in the CCCA; Special shout out to Jim Robbins, Earl Heath, Bill Lassiter,  Dave Hollis, Tom Lester, Francis Owens, Joel (Haffner) ......can’t believe his last name escaped me......and others. I miss all my mentors more than you can imagine. Good times with car guys who knew cars like the back of their hands. The next drink is in memory of you all.

 

We won’t mention my XXX XXXX friends with their insane 80’s parties that can’t be mentioned in the open. The weather, food, and women were all served HOT! Miami Vice was a TV show.........they lived it. I was able to look in from the fringe. And to the very nice lady Maryanne who shared a week with me at the CCCA Annual Meeting in San Antonio......I still look back on our time with fond memories. My recent visit back in the hills of Texas brought a smile to my face. You were the reason. I sure miss my youth!

Edited April 18, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[padgett]

a) youth is wasted on the young.

b) 1917 was before leaded gas, before high octane, from what I've seen it was little different from kerosene, Wonder how it would do in JP-4. SOunds like 5-6:1 compression.

c) unless you need to heat the fuel, a crossflow head is a good thing.

[Oregon Desert model 45]

This White belonged to a member of our local car club in Southern Oregon 40 years ago.  I don't recall what year it was.

Kevin 

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, Oregon Desert model 45 said:

This White belonged to a member of our local car club in Southern Oregon 40 years ago.  I don't recall what year it was.

Kevin 

 

 

1915-1916 4-45 Series. 45 horsepower. Nice car. It may be in Canada now, painted red.

[jeff_a]

Ed -- awhile ago I found a picture w/ caption["3 Generations of an American Car"] in Motor Age, with a photo of 1901, 1906 and 1917 Whites, on p 48 of the 5/24/17 edition. There is also an ad for a White on p. 4 of the June 7th issue["White 16 Valve 4"]. Both Whites resemble yours. I hope the link transfers.

Keep up the good work!

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=44hMAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA20-PA11&lpg=RA20-PA11&dq=1917+Peerless+56+200-mile+record&source=bl&ots=qH_vJijGeZ&sig=ACfU3U32V-4rsNK6EubcIdE4jZG4X7O5ow&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIiMWanIfwAhXR3J4KHXHMAasQ6AEwBXoECAUQAw#v=onepage&q=1917 Peerless 56 200-mile record&f=false

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Jeff......you sure can turn things up! It’s a similar car but a shorter wheel base and a factory body. That said, I have never seen an actual photo of that series or model before. Thanks for the heads up.....link worked fine. 👍

[edinmass]

[alsancle]

Like I said before,  really big car or really little guy.

 

 

[edinmass]

Phil is never been called little. The car is huge........the 1924 Yellowstone White Bus is insane. Ross W. the owner let Phil and I drive it.......quite exciting. Ross and his son Adam are true car guys. They share knowledge, and both are very experienced in making parts for cars that don’t exist. It was a great day. We expected a washout, instead we had a great driving day........tomorrow is a washout........so the car is in the trailer, and Phil and I are off on a cars and parts buying adventure. Don’t expect much to come of it..........then again, that’s how I ended up with the White! 👍

[Paul Dobbin]

Ed,

Don't miss the day when the tour goes to Tommy Smalls Collection in Dade City.   Even if you have to ride with

Ross in the bus, it's great place to visit.   (The bus is fun too)

[edinmass]

Interesting observations now that we have had the chance to get the White out of Southern Florida traffic and city roads. Up here in Howey in the Hills it’s much more like the back roads of New England. Little traffic, not too many traffic signals, few curb cuts.........a place where you can actually enjoy driving the car without the concern of those crazy drivers we see everywhere in Southern Florida. The car is much more comfortable to drive here...........on the way to dinner last night we were just driving  down the road and the White settled in at about 52 mph by the gps. Impossible to drive it at that speed down south......up here it’s comfortable. So the sweet spot seems it’s at 50-52 running along relaxed. If traffic is near you, cut that down to 40. It’s obvious to me, this car will be my “northern driver” and after this year, it will live up in Michigan. It’s twenty times more enjoyable on the back roads............South Florida’s streets are not in this cars long term future. Enjoying my first AACA tour since...........drum roll.........1973! People are fun, and the group of cars is very diverse. More tonight on today’s adventures hunting cars and parts........and some more in depth analysis of the White. Enjoy your day. Ed.

[philip roitman]

Thank you. This has been an elightening and fun thread to follow. Older cars like this are not my forte, but I love them as I love all cars. My last time with old cars like these were with Austie Clark in the 1980's Glad to see you out and about and really enjoying the car as it was meant to be driven. I eagerly await more posts and am learning something new everyday. Again, Thank you!

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by philip roitman (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Ok, an over the road driving test on a 104 year old car. How much do the tools ⚒️ In my tool box weigh? Spare parts not included. First correct guess within one pound wins a drink at Hershey fall meet at the Hershey Hotel this year. Steve M is buying!😎

Edited April 21, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

[md murray]

28 minutes ago, edinmass said:

How much do the tools ⚒️ In my tool box weigh? Spare parts not included

Tools? That car is PROPER sorted. I feel like this is a trick question...I'm going to shoot low here. 5 lbs?

[Grimy]

Ed can get by with a Leatherman tool.....

[edinmass]

17 minutes ago, md murray said:

Tools? That car is PROPER sorted. I feel like this is a trick question...I'm going to shoot low here. 5 lbs?

Good guess. You win. There are NO tools in the car. None. Zero. It’s been properly prepared! Congratulations on your win. Ed

[SC38dls]

I was going to say a nail file and a tweezer can’t weigh much, that’s all he needs to fix anything. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

I've been known to fill my toolboxes with ice and "lubricant" for the owner, perhaps Ed is the same way.

That, or a whole lot of anti-psychotic drugs for the guy willing to drive that thing with his foot on the floor...

[edinmass]

The anti-psychotic drugs aren’t working. The voices in my head keep telling me to drive the White faster, and buy more pre war cars.............it’s hitting the brakes for all those Rye induced hallucinations that really bother me...........Dave S keeps sending me bottles............but so far they are all defective.........seems they all “leak out” during shipping. 😏

[V16]

33.5 pounds

[SC38dls]

I’ll send more! 🙃

[edinmass]

This is our trusty sidekick Dave C also known here as Nickelroadster. His 1915 Olds runs and drives well........and he has been our driving partner......as everyone else here has cars twenty to 75 years newer. We improvised a special very old car tour.......and drove about three times the mileage in the tour book. I kept it under 40 most of the day.......we did hit a divided highway for about a mile......which got us up to a bit more speed.......the Olds topped out......but I kept him in my rear view and it all worked out well. After driving huge displacement engines two or three generations newer........you have to keep in mind the era of your vehicle and keep the speed in perspective. 
 

A new first for the White today........E10 fuel. We filled up a few miles from the resort, and jumped back on the road. Did a short speed run.........and instantly realized we were running lean........damm shit gas! We will try and lighten up on the throttle and live with it for the day tomorrow. It will be about 120 miles round trip for the day we have planned......a new record for the White if it pulls it off. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

I love the 1915 Olds Roadster.   Did you include Ross and the White Yellowstone bus in your tour group?

[edinmass]

Ross had to get home early in the week. He was kind enough to to stay an extra night so I could see and drive the bus. We had company from Vermont today, so we broke off of the tour, and did our own thing. We did 90 miles.........and had our first issue with the car. It seemed to have a running problem..........felt like it was running out of gas.......it was. I forgot to let the compression release back to it’s regular spot.....so we were driving with it on........no manifold vacuum.........so not enough gas. Took about ten minutes and two miles to figure it out......just put the release back in the correct position and all was well. Not the cars fault.........just yours truly. 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[padgett]

Yes the drought is over and spring has sprung down here.

[alsancle]

So I apologize as I was supposed to be in the back seat taking good pictures and videos for Ed.   But life got in the way at the last moment.  However,  Ed seems to have learned how to hold the phone horizontally so this is pretty good.

 

He says the lake is Hastings,  but I can find no such lake in Florida.  He is somewhere north of Mount Dora.   I'm going to move to this area, so lets not everybody crowd in at once.

 

 

 

[SC38dls]

I thought you were supposed to be there to hold the umbrella ☔️ over Ed and Phil so they wouldn’t get wet. 

[John Bloom]

13 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I'm going to move to this area, so lets not everybody crowd in at once.

 

Just watching the video made me go in the bathroom and take an Antihistamine, and I’m pretty sure I saw an alligator lurking in the shrubbery.

[padgett]

Clermont/Groveland/Montverde is the area I'd pick but probably not going to move.

 

Not many lakes that size north of Mt. Dora (bikers like it), looks more like Lake Eustis or Lake Harris (large and by Howie).

[edinmass]

28 minutes ago, padgett said:

Clermont/Groveland/Montverde is the area I'd pick but probably not going to move.

 

Not many lakes that size north of Mt. Dora (bikers like it), looks more like Lake Eustis or Lake Harris (large and by Howie).

 

Lake Harris it is! Right by the Mission Inn about two miles north.

[SC38dls]

Lake Hastings, Lake Harris — too much Rye refreshments!  

[TAKerry]

Thanks for posting the video. Great to 'ride along' with the fellows.