Not Disappointed!!!

[mercer09]

yes really. most intelligent people who are spending 40 mill are doing it privately, unless you are neuvo rich..............

 

everyone isnt interested in giving the gov 1/2 their take.

[mercer09]

 

That is so weird, we posted practically the same comment at the same time, I promise I didn't copy off of you

 

and we are both named Ron- could you be my long lost brother?

[Matt Harwood]

41 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

yes really. most intelligent people who are spending 40 mill are doing it privately, unless you are neuvo rich..............

 

everyone isnt interested in giving the gov 1/2 their take.

 

If you can afford a $48,000,000 Ferrari, you're not buying it to impress your buddies and the tax man doesn't scare you.

 

It's a mistake to assume everyone wants to cheat on their taxes.

[auburnseeker]

What I'm wondering is what's all the secrecy of a car that sold for under 10 grand.  It's less than 10G.  Not like you hit the lotto and sold some ultra rare muscle car with no miles to a very private collector that paid 6 figures for it and doesn't want to be known.  It's a needy model A sedan.  Just a step above a 40's Mopar sedan on the value ladder.  Several change hands every day, or atleast every week in the hobby. 

I told you what I sold that 48 Plymouth Convertible for.  Not a big secret.  The new guy bought a nice running car with all new chrome and nice interior that needed 10,000 worth of paint and body work to be worth 25.  He's trying to get , or was trying to get 30 something for it.  Good luck to him. 

  The only reason we should be obliged by the price,  was the entire thread was based on pricing.  If you sold it for less than you paid,  then you don't have to worry about the IRS coming after you.  Even if you sold it for more,  you could write off the ownership expenses including storage I'm pretty sure so you could have gotten a couple more than you paid for it and still been in the hole.  

  There is another Model A what's it worth thread featuring a more desirable roadster non running pickup.  I posted my thoughts on that as well.  Hope they let us know if they decide to sell and what it goes for or atleast what they advertise it at.  Non running,  Hasn't in a few decades,   They said with poor paint and not sure about paperwork.  I posted probably a real selling price of 6500.  That's based on 2 other running ones i saw in similar shape advertised at 8500.  Could easily be 20 grand in work to get it to the turnkey shape those are in. 

  Hard to give advice if you can't collect the data necessary to be accurate. 

  I can tell you a good looking but not perfect,  though fairly correct 40 Ford Deluxe coupe with every piece of Chrome, rubber and interior new,  freshly detailed with good clean paperwork that ran and drove well is worth 30 grand.  That's in a desirable color.  Locally marketed.  JUst about what I figured based on many others I had seen advertised all over the country. 

[auburnseeker]

If you cheat on the front end,  with a car you sell nationally you'll catch it on the back end as most buyer's then use a wire transfer.  You now have say 50G in your account for a car you show you paid 5 G for.  Sales tax is alot cheaper than short term capital gains which can have other implications to your overall picture as well. 

Not much of this is a worry on a car worth less than 10 G .  Just talking about the higher end stuff. 

 

On a side note Matt.  If one trades in say a 30G car on a 50 G old car in your state do you get that same tax incentive that you do on buying a new vehicle when you trade in your old,  so you only pay the tax on the difference?  I'm not sure if your state is even set up that way,  like NY is.  I never considered this when thinking of trading in one of my old cars for another at a dealer.   Might make it more appealing if the circumstances were right. 

[mrcvs]

I am not disclosing the sales price due to respect for the buyer.  If you really, really want to know, you can PM me, but the deal is it is not to be publicly disclosed.  I didn't make any money on it.  However, unlike a new car, I didn't incur the cost of upkeep and experience huge depreciation.

 

When I first saw this car, I loved it!  Love the colours, it's a Model A.  Still love all that.  It was rolled out to the end of a driveway locally, elderly owner ill.  I ran it in a back field, ran well.  To make a long story short, it lacked compression, hence rebuilt engine.  Maintenance costs, albeit a bit pricy.  Won't recoupe that, live and learn!

 

Not as much fun garaging a vehicle when it's not your own space.  Can't recoupe that.

 

Let's put it this way.  If I bought this vehicle 5 yrs ago, parked it behind the house, and sold it today, after just letting it sit--and not exposed to the elements--I wouldn't have lost money.

[Matt Harwood]

I bought this for $37,000:

 

 

And sold it for $00,000.00 less than a year later. Talk about old cars as awesome investments!

 

It's not so hard.

[1937hd45]

36 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

If you can afford a $48,000,000 Ferrari, you're not buying it to impress your buddies and the tax man doesn't scare you.

 

It's a mistake to assume everyone wants to cheat on their taxes.

This is NOT a class envy question by any means , just something I've wondered about, what would $48,000,000 earn just sitting in some conservative  liquid investment? Would the Ferrari in question or any other car in that league ever come close to appreciating to that lost income of whatever was sold to cover the cost of the car. 

 

Bob 

[C Carl]

Well then, mrcvs, at this point you should tell us what you paid for the car originally. From the elderly, ill, previous owner, before any work was done on it. Was the chrome on the front bumper peeling at that time ? Rust below and around the back window.? The deterioration above the back window at the rear of the top ? Had there been any other progressive deterioration during your ownership ? 

 

And don't forget, we really are friends here. Some people, not the least of which by any account, is the kind, generous, hardworking, Auburnseeker. He, Matt, and others go above and beyond the call so often. You have earned something very precious here. Something which even money can't buy. Over the past 3 years, it is literally quite possible that each and every one here contributed to saving my life. Seriously. I will say more about this at some point, but for now, let me just reveal that I am subject to occasional deep clinical depression. Clue : my 1927 Cadillac is STILL stranded in Las Vegas where I arrived with it 3 1/2 years ago. Spending hours every day living in this wonderful AACA universe composed of great people helping each other out, has done more to help me than even that "shrink", Dr. Diagnosis, has been able to.

 

PM sent, as per your suggestion.

 

And now, how about starting the new topic about your other old car. Let's all enjoy that one together !   -   Carl 

[mercer09]

so Matt- 30 years ago you bought the "right" ferrari for 1 million. today it is worth 40 million and you have no problem with giving the IRS 20 million...........

 

Im proud of ya, but honestly, not what I would do.

[auburnseeker]

Actually you would have long term capital gains and that's alot less.   Yes no one wants to pay more than necessary,  but seems most of the big money, exchanges money at the auctions so not much is private there.  Us peons even in the 20-40G range don't account for much. 

It's ridiculous we have to even pay taxes on the whole thing as the cars in some cases have yielded so many taxes you can't even keep track of them.  Not only the gain ,but also the sales tax paid each time plus your plate fees every 2 years.  Just think of the huge windfall in states like NY where they started collecting sales tax on every internet sale.   You know they will pee that away and still be broke.  It's not a revenue problem,  it's a spending problem. They just doubled our permit fees on Building permits here as well.  I think mine is going from 360?  to 7and change.  Just for the privledge of building.  Yee Ha.  

[edinmass]

59 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I bought this for $37,000:

 

 

And sold it for $00,000.00 less than a year later. Talk about old cars as awesome investments!

 

It's not so hard.

 

Matt, if it makes you feel any better, I have got you beat on that deal........and so do a bunch of others here, they just won’t admit it. It took me a LONG time to learn how to cost average car deals, and learn to cut my losses as soon as possible. I have sold cars for world record prices, and even more spectacular losses...........life goes on. My triumphs and victories outweigh the losses 75 to 1.  When they toss me in the ground I’m sure many will say he spent all his money on cars, women, and whiskey..........yup, they are correct. Never wasted a penny! 

 

In in the end all we have is our reputation, our family, and the good deeds we left behind. I just wrote a check for the people in the Bahamas............our town is seeing the refugees and it’s beyond terrible. So I have less money to blow on something that really isn’t that important.........a move of that storm 75 miles due west of the island would have left me homeless. But there for the grace of god go I. Charity isn’t charity unless it’s anonymous and no tax benefits are taken. I feel better for helping people who have much less than I do. As a matter of fact, I’m going to take in a dog for someone who can’t keep theirs on the island right now. I’m sure it will turn into a member of the family, and I will have to give it back which will be just as traumatic to me as getting hit by the storm myself. I can’t imagine not having my dogs or being able to take proper care of them. I’ll suffer the cost and emotional distress to help others......it builds character........and lord knows I need it.

Edited September 12, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[C Carl]

I had a goal in life to pay $1,000,000 in income tax some year. My crazy mother's unauthorized meddling in my financial affairs saved me of that tax obligation. That was about 20 years ago during the Great Dot Com bubble, burst, and recovery. R.I.P., Ma. You might as well, I have not/will not ever be able to do so again. Oh BOY would I ever love to have to pay a megabuck in tax these days. As I said above, I have not even been able to drive my '27 Cadillac home. It has a pretty good storage bill.

 

That is WAY more than too much at this point. I would not have mentioned it at all, if not for the fact that I am just about to solve my immediate problems. So please don't any of you spend a nanosecond worrying about me. I am very happy that I will be on the road again soon. Thank you, all of my wonderful friends here.     -   Carl 

[C Carl]

Curious, Mike. What is CLF ?    -   CCF

[mercer09]

Actually you would have long term capital gains and that's alot less.

 

 

 

so  that would be about 40% and in NJ another 7%. so yeah, close to half.......... didnt even add the auctioneers fees.  In NY the state tax is even higher.........

 

so long term capital gains is meaningless in this scenario .still close to 20 mill.  we arent talking 15% on stocks here.

[mike6024]

Cleveland-Cliffs Inc
NYSE: CLF, 8.39 USD +0.16 (1.88%)

 

They are a materials supplier, iron. And they are constructing a plant to come online mid next year, HBI, Hot Briquetted Iron,  Hot Briquetted Iron (HBI) is a premium form of DRI 

 

Note the p/e ratio! 2.16

 

Open8.31

High8.39

Low7.94

Mkt cap2.27B

P/E ratio2.16

Div yield2.86%

Prev close8.24

52-wk high13.10

52-wk low6.64

[Frantz]

$1m to 40m is less than a 10% rate of return over 40 years, not factoring cost associated and taxes. About the same as the Dow. If financial gain was the only motive than it wasnt a stellar choice. Most cars dont do nearly as well.

[mercer09]

wasnt the goal Frantz, but this is the way it sometimes turns out- and over 30 yrs was mentioned, but doesnt matter...........

[Matt Harwood]

Not to digress too far from the topic, but I'm pretty sure the guy who paid $48 million for a Ferrari GTO wasn't raiding his kids' college fund to pay for it. It probably wasn't quite like one of us mere mortals buying mrcvs's Model A, but that lump of cash isn't nearly as massive to him as it is to us. If he's like most high-end collectors, he likely has a large collection which is housed under some kind of charitable non-profit situation like a museum and therefore taxes are not a significant concern during acquisitions. The seller may have paid cap gains (unless he wasn't an American and then he'll have to deal with his own authorities) but I doubt he was in a situation where he was desperate to avoid it--he sold the car publicly, after all. Most guys accept that taxes are a part of living in a civilized society--there are plenty of places without them but you probably don't want to live there. And every time someone here at my shop asks me to be an accomplice to his tax fraud, I ask if they remember how Al Capone was finally convicted...

 

Ed, I wasn't posting The Car Which Shall Not Be Named to complain about it, only to point out that revealing transaction prices isn't a big deal. I lost my shirt, several orders of magnitude more than mrcvs did, yet there the numbers are out in the open. Not a secret even though it's humiliating if you think about it--even experienced people can make mistakes. Actually, I may yet make a few hundred bucks on the sale of that thing--I have a box of gaskets from Olson's that I never opened so maybe I can return it for some kind of credit.

 

My real point was that it would be beneficial to all involved in this saga (particularly given the complaints of mrcvs about values and the market and ungrateful buyers) to get a better gauge of how our advice affected the sale of the car. Apparently mrcvs is pleased with the result. "Losing" money on an old car isn't really a fair argument, because you got something else in exchange: fun. As I said, this was merely one more data point that will allow all of us to speak with more accuracy about the "condition" of "the market" regarding cars that are seeing diminished interest. That's all. I don't care what he made or lost, but the next time someone tries to tell us how awful things are in "the market" this would be a real-world anecdote.

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, C Carl said:

I had a goal in life to pay $1,000,000 in income tax some year. ...

 

Actually, anyone can pay more than he owes

in any given year.  So if you want to make that

contribution to the national debt, they will be

happy to receive it as a gift--

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I bought this for $37,000:

 

 

And sold it for $00,000.00 less than a year later. Talk about old cars as awesome investments!

 

It's not so hard.

 

I remember when you bought that car. And I find myself intrigued by those Lincolns quite often, mostly their prices. But I guess I will always be stuck in that General Motors rut.

 

I bought this Lincoln for $600 in 2015.

 

So far the spread sheet says I have a net profit of $3200 and I have another $600 worth of pieces to sell. I have found that the smaller amount you invest the greater the returns.

Like the old man who ran the candy store on a 2% margin. He said "I buy the candy for 1 cent and I sell it for 3 cents, it's a 2 percent margin.

 

I started working here when I was 11 years old.

 

In the black shirt about 16. Sell low enough so the customer doesn't have to think too hard.

[auburnseeker]

7 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

Actually, anyone can pay more than he owes

in any given year.  So if you want to make that

contribution to the national debt, they will be

happy to receive it as a gift--

If they actually used it for that,  more would be happy to pay,  but I'm sure any windfall gets peed away.  Afterall look at the lotto System to help Schools, postal retirement fund.  We can go on and on about everything set up with the best of intentions. 

[60FlatTop]

8 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

We can go on and on about everything set up with the best of intentions. 

 

I hear some of it goes for road paving.

[auburnseeker]

For what we pay,  they could pave it with silver dollars and still have money left over.

[mercer09]

I have found that the smaller amount you invest the greater the returns.

 

aint that the truth!

[Uncle_Buck]

Buy high, sell low then make the rest up in volume.

 

There, I have just made sense out of this topic - all 16 pages ...

[60FlatTop]

I had fun reading all 16 pages..... it kind of brought out the predator in me.

[Bhigdog]

I admit I haven't waded through all 16 pages of this "discussion" but I've come to the conclusion we are discussing oranges, apples, bananas and mangos. There is no "correct" way to engage in this hobby and even if there were there is no "correct" way to do it. I suppose there are some who manage to turn a profit dealing in old cars but they are not in the hobby, they are in the business. Big difference.

If you engage in the hobby and calculate and track every penny to see if you are enjoying it, you are in the wrong hobby.

Case in point.

Twenty some years ago I entered the game by buying a 55 Buick Century that was a total basket case but I wanted to have the satisfaction of bringing it back from the dead. I had no facilities or tools. To accomplish my goal I had a 32 X 40 shop built and I bought all the tools needed.

The Buick has since garnered AACA grand national status along with four subsequent basket case restorations also reaching that status.

The point is my BIG payoff was the enjoyment I had by personally doing those restorations all all the knowledge I gained........Priceless.

Other than ball park I have no idea what it cost me in dollars to restore those five cars headed for the crusher nor do I know what they will bring when finally sold. Do I subtract the cost of my buildings and tools or are they part of the cost?

The answer is:......... I don't care.

For the last twenty some years I've had an experiance that can't be bought but must be actually lived........PRICELESS!...............Bob

 

 

[1937hd45]

1 hour ago, mercer09 said:

I have found that the smaller amount you invest the greater the returns.

 

aint that the truth!

I don't know were the lines get drawn but most things you pick up for one to twenty dollars can be sold for double the investment, gets harder to double as the price goes up. Bob 

[auburnseeker]

I deal in literature and it's no different.  You always make out on the 1 to 3 dollar more common and not so common items that look like they don't have alot of value. When you start dumping $100 or more on a single piece,  seems you make just a small percentage back but have a huge investment when talking several pieces that ebay makes the best return on in fees.  I usually try to buy lots so the turds are balanced out by the good items (which you will never seem to guess right) where you buy everything at 1 to 3 dollars, but you are taking the whole lot including the junk, some of which you are going to just toss.  Sometimes more,  but I have to feel like it's good stuff.   I have spent more,  alot more,  but only time will tell on these pieces as I haven't marketed them yet. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[padgett]

One place in the car hobby is the reverse: the worse the car is, the greater the likelihood of winning. Name the competition...(and not de Lemons).

[mrcvs]

6 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

If they actually used it for that,  more would be happy to pay,  but I'm sure any windfall gets peed away.  Afterall look at the lotto System to help Schools, postal retirement fund.  We can go on and on about everything set up with the best of intentions. 

I am STUNNED and AMAZED at how high a percentage we are collectively taxed in this country, and the sheer number of us who pay taxes.  A large population base times a high percentage of tax equals a TON of money!!!  And yet governments at all levels are constantly experiencing a fiscal crisis.  Where does it all go??????  I'm convinced that you could tax at a 100% rate, if that was at all possible, and still governments, local, state, and Federal would be flat broke!  We have a massive spending problem in this country!

[lump]

10 minutes ago, mrcvs said:

I am STUNNED and AMAZED at how high a percentage we are collectively taxed in this country, and the sheer number of us who pay taxes.  A large population base times a high percentage of tax equals a TON of money!!!  And yet governments at all levels are constantly experiencing a fiscal crisis.  Where does it all go??????  I'm convinced that you could tax at a 100% rate, if that was at all possible, and still governments, local, state, and Federal would be flat broke!  We have a massive spending problem in this country!

LOL. Mrcvs, you should check out tax rates in other countries, like Great Britain or Germany. Then you will understand why so many celebrities from Europe who often talk very derisively about the USA, choose to seek citizenship here. 🤣

[auburnseeker]

I can tell you one thing no one seems to ever think of.  Just look in any state or federal agencies parking lots and look at the amount of vehicles the Gov't has and has to maintain.  Think of even things like the cost of machinery we have at the border trying to enforce our immigration laws.  Those are on the cheap side probably atleast $35,000 trucks and up.  They aren't driving Kias.   Not including how many get trashed and replaced.   I know I drive a 14 year old truck because a new one to replace it on the low end is upper 50's and that's for nothing fancy but a diesel engine.  We won't even get into the bigger trucks.  New triaxle plow trucks for the Northeast probably run around 100G each and up without the plows.  Those have to be atleast another 10 G.  Sander another 10 G.   No wonder our taxes are used right up.  Who knows if Gov't contract is really any cheaper anymore than what one could buy off the lot with end of the year specials.  Even Mini excavators run 80 thousand and up.  

Edited September 13, 2019 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Curious where it all goes?

 

 

Beware the military-industrial complex, indeed.

[Guest]

Canadian version.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Defending half thd world is expensive, which is problematic.  Its a political, policy issue, not military's fault folks...

[mercer09]

AND IT WOULD BE WISE TO DROP THE POLITICS.....

 

good morning Steve! Up and atem!

[trimacar]

2 hours ago, mercer09 said:

AND IT WOULD BE WISE TO DROP THE POLITICS.....

 

good morning Steve! Up and atem!

Amen.  Interesting and depressing stuff but doesn't belong here....

[John_Mereness]

On 9/5/2019 at 10:15 AM, Matt Harwood said:

 

Yet every guy who ever calls on the car after that eBay auction will say, "Well, I see it only bid to $X,XXX on eBay, so I'll throw you a bone and do you a favor and pay [60% of $X,XXX]."

 

Once it's been through eBay, regardless of the outcome, it's marked. Look how many guys on this board say to look through the sold cars on eBay to get an idea of prices, never mind the fact that eBay only has like a 32% sell-through rate and most of those "sold" cars are not sold. I use eBay, but I don't like it and I rarely do auctions, just a fixed price listing. I don't need the aggravation of sport bidders and deadbeats, plus the car being marked for future bottom-feeders.

Tends to be the average perception.  

We use ebay as a tool for marketing - gets a lot of views.  

And in rare instance a car does sell and surprisingly we hold a few record public sales for some lower to even mega high tickets.  

And  I have pulled some advertisements early via low bids, but the savvy bidder uses a bidding program so the bulk of bids come in on the last 3 to 4 or so seconds, so I usually leave the auction going to the end.