Pfeil

Your Future, will you fit?

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This is a typical environmental activist picture of pollution. Most Google searches and nearly any newspaper or magazine article will carry a similar one. Those are two clouds of water vapor coming from a large plant operating at light load. Certain types of boilers require a minimum steaming load to protect the tubes. To meet that minimum and maintain safe operation steam is vented to the atmosphere. The uniformed environmentalist will hyperventilate watching this and exhale a lot of CO2.

See the low angle of the sun in this picture. It is an early morning shot prior to the major daily load coming on, probably about 6 AM. Or the plant is one of many US plants that have reduced production but maintained high capacity. I have also seen zealous energy managers reduce loads below the boiler minimums and lose their efforts through venting of steam.

Early morning shots of cooling towers are another favorite of the enviro-journalists, quite dramatic, But they are just examples of dramatization that sensationalize what they don't understand and damage their credibility. Kind of like the store about the boy who cried "Water!".

Bernie

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I fear if the global or US economy depended on me, and people like me, to sustained growth, it would soon falter. I am one of those outliers who seldom buys anything new. Sure I buy disposable stuff like gas and food, but my durable items come from the secondary market, when on the rear occasion that I buy any. I find it rewarding to be able to utilize what many, in our throw away society, would dispose of. I'm fortunate that I like to utilize old things. On every level from style, cost, recycling by using, to saving natural resources, it's a win. I also take pride in being able to utilize obsolete technologies without any undue hardships. 

 

 I drive twenty five year old cars, recline in antique furniture, and believe that remodeling for the sake of styling is an expensive trap. I still get much of my news from the newspaper and I don't own a smart phone. Car shopping for me is searching for that special old car, and then driving it. Would I like to be driving a Tesla, hell yes, and if I live long enough maybe I'll be able to afford a used one, but until then I'm content.

 

Edited by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

If gas & diesel vehicles will be gone in ten years and the companies that produce the fuels will be out of business in ten years, why are the selling fuels so cheaply now? 

 

Bob

When you have a surplus of gas and demand is high and is met the price goes down.

When you have a shortage of gas  and demand is high the price goes up.

when you have a low production of gas because demand has fallen off you have high prices. This is what will happen when the VE's take over. Look at the cost of paint thinner, turpentine, cleaning solvent, diesel. It takes less in the refining process, but the demand is not that of gasoline so the price is higher. 

Edited by Pfeil (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

This is a typical environmental activist picture of pollution. Most Google searches and nearly any newspaper or magazine article will carry a similar one. Those are two clouds of water vapor coming from a large plant operating at light load. Certain types of boilers require a minimum steaming load to protect the tubes. To meet that minimum and maintain safe operation steam is vented to the atmosphere. The uniformed environmentalist will hyperventilate watching this and exhale a lot of CO2.

 

You are correct. The white "smoke" is water vapor.  The emissions coming out of those stacks that can kill you are odorless and colorless.  The fact remains that unless the electricity in those trucks and cars comes from nuclear, solar, or hydro, they STILL create emissions. The losses in the transmission lines don't exactly help the equation, either. Yes, it is easier to clean up the emissions from a fixed power plant than from millions of mobile emission sources.  Just don't believe it's zero either.

 

Where's that Ford Nucleon when you need it?

 

b5c95deecac8fadcdae8cb92402cff76

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 I understand every new house built in Ca. has to be solar powered.

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#5  I hate to say it but I had some employees that could use some implanted.

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3 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

image.png.26324e289ad8ca7a6a8f1fc52fb04304.png

 

This is a typical environmental activist picture of pollution. Most Google searches and nearly any newspaper or magazine article will carry a similar one. Those are two clouds of water vapor coming from a large plant operating at light load. Certain types of boilers require a minimum steaming load to protect the tubes. To meet that minimum and maintain safe operation steam is vented to the atmosphere. The uniformed environmentalist will hyperventilate watching this and exhale a lot of CO2.

See the low angle of the sun in this picture. It is an early morning shot prior to the major daily load coming on, probably about 6 AM. Or the plant is one of many US plants that have reduced production but maintained high capacity. I have also seen zealous energy managers reduce loads below the boiler minimums and lose their efforts through venting of steam.

Early morning shots of cooling towers are another favorite of the enviro-journalists, quite dramatic, But they are just examples of dramatization that sensationalize what they don't understand and damage their credibility. Kind of like the store about the boy who cried "Water!".

Bernie

 

Your assessment of that photo and that plant isn't correct. I guess you thought I grabbed that photo off the internet but I didn't. It was taken by me on a cold winter day.   I was facing northeast as the sun was coming up over a hill casting a shadow on the dark portions of the photo. The sun was just high enough to hit the smokestacks and the steam. I thought it made an interesting photo.  I live near that plant and I have lots of friends that work there.  I have been inside it several times.  The steam you see coming out is not steam from the boilers vented to atmosphere as you describe.  The vented steam you describe is vented through large pipes sticking out of the roof of the building.
 

The plant has 12 smoke stacks. Two of them are 1125 feet tall. All that is used now is the short stack with the steam coming out. The plant has nine units and I think they were running at full capacity when I took the photo because it had been really cold for several days. The steam you see is coming out of part of a scrubber system (the short stack) that injects water and pulverized limestone into the hot flu gasses coming through the stack. The water injected into the hot flu gases produces the huge amount of steam you see in the photo. Certain pollutants in the flue gasses bind to the wet limestone  and falls to the bottom of the of the scrubber where they hit water that carries the limestone and some fly ash out in a slurry that eventually is dried and processed. Some of it is sold to add to concrete to make the concrete stronger. Some of the slurry is processed to recover the pulverized limestone to be sold as gypsum. What cannot be sold is buried in a landfill.

 

I don't consider myself to be an environmental activist but I am concerned about the environment we all have to live in. The reason I posted the photo was to remind people that plants like this are what power those electric vehicles and that driving an electric vehicle does result in air pollution. They are not pollution free as some people seem to think,

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Everything has an impact on the environment, the goal is to make that impact as minimal as possible.  Our country’s strides to improve air quality are outstanding compared to many others yet the fight to make continued improvement is needed to ensure the future of those who come after us. 

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And with that above statement, I should say I sure miss the days when I rode 2 stroke motorcycles that are now too polluting to be driven on the street.  The new research on electric motorcycles that offer that same crazy get up and go feeling without the smoke sure look exciting.

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Did you see the electric motorcycle made by a 3D printer. Took a couple of days at a cost of $2500 all done by the printer except the motor and tires. They won’t sell it !  

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I saw a Cobra that was 3-D printed by Oak Ridge National Laboratory. It's electric powered. No telling what it cost to build it. Our tax dollars at work. :)

 

AMSE 2016 (31).JPG

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18 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Here is what the exhaust systems currently looks like.

 

If that stack picture is a wet precipitator it wouldn't be "currently". It would be far too expensive to operate like that continuously. That is a capture of an isolated event. I have had incidents where I put out black smoke, the real McCoy, that looked like an eclipse. Sometimes it happens. I have been running those things since 1968. That is a departure from normal and preferred operation.

 

To the topic of "will you fit in the future". Sure, about as well as I do today. A future without cynics would be a stagnant place.

Bernie

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12 hours ago, SC38DLS said:

Did you see the electric motorcycle made by a 3D printer. Took a couple of days at a cost of $2500 all done by the printer except the motor and tires. They won’t sell it !  

Just watched it, amazing!  A good example of the technology changes we are discussing.

Imagine the hard to find auto parts that could be made this way.

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36 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

If that stack picture is a wet precipitator it wouldn't be "currently". It would be far too expensive to operate like that continuously. That is a capture of an isolated event. I have had incidents where I put out black smoke, the real McCoy, that looked like an eclipse. Sometimes it happens. I have been running those things since 1968. That is a departure from normal and preferred operation.

 

To the topic of "will you fit in the future". Sure, about as well as I do today. A future without cynics would be a stagnant place.

Bernie

 

That was not an isolated capture. The photo below was taken less the 10 minutes ago off my front porch. That is about as "current" as it gets.   I have lived here for over 10 years and that is the way it has always looked when operating. It is NORMAL operation. Apparently TVA thinks it is the preferred method.

 

SAM_4094.JPG

 

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1 hour ago, TerryB said:

Just watched it, amazing!  A good example of the technology changes we are discussing.

Imagine the hard to find auto parts that could be made this way.

 

The main drawback is that the finished 3D part may look more or less like the original however it does not have the metallurgical properties of the original. Hardness, toughness, tensile strength etc.

  The best application for 3D printing I have seen so far as regards to the car hobby is for making accurate , reduced cost patterns for casting metal parts.

There have been a few threads on this application and it does show much promise. 

 

Greg in Canada

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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20 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

 

The main drawback is that the finished 3D part may look more or less like the original however it does not have the metallurgical properties of the original. Hardness, toughness, tensile strength etc.

 

 

While I cannot speak for hobbyist-type 3D printers, in the aerospace world there are several technologies in use that routinely "print" metallic parts with properties adequate for use in highly-stressed environments.  Yes, repeatability and flaw detection are still issues being worked, but manufacturers are printing parts such as turbopump impellers and combustion chambers for rocket engines.

 

5a463c1426d9b.jpg

 

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Yes , I am sure that at the leading edge of the technology 3D printing is suited to certain parts.  In the car hobby however the general aim is for replacement parts to be equivalent in all practical respects to the original part. Sometimes the mechanical properties might be upgraded, a better grade of steel for example where the original is prone to failure. Or brass/ bronze castings substituting for corrosion prone pot metal. 

  Also in the old car hobby what passes as a reasonable price in the aerospace industry might not seem quite so reasonable.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

Yes , I am sure that at the leading edge of the technology 3D printing is suited to certain parts.  In the car hobby however the general aim is for replacement parts to be equivalent in all practical respects to the original part. Sometimes the mechanical properties might be upgraded, a better grade of steel for example where the original is prone to failure. Or brass/ bronze castings substituting for corrosion prone pot metal. 

  Also in the old car hobby what passes as a reasonable price in the aerospace industry might not seem quite so reasonable.

 

Greg in Canada

 

My point is that the technology flows down.  The computer processing power in a new car today is orders of magnitude greater than what Apollo used to go to the moon 50 years ago, and compared to what it cost in 1969, that computing power is nearly free today. Other technologies will similarly flow down.

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Jay Leno had a quote that resonates with me all the time:

 

"In the past, labor was cheap and technology was expensive. Today it's the other way around."

 

 

In the past, labor was cheap, so they built magnificent things by taking advantage of it (literally and figuratively). Cars, houses, buildings, railroads, theaters. All those beautiful things from the past that could never be replicated today because the costs to do so would be astronomical and the skills are non-existent and come at a premium if they do exist. Next time you see a place like Carnegie Hall on TV, look at how lovely it is. Nothing built today could approach that level of amazingness without an army of artisans working for pennies a day. It's extraordinary and probably why so many of us are drawn to cars of the past. They engender that same feeling of hard-working craftsmanship instead of efficiency by computer.

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6 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Jay Leno had a quote that resonates with me all the time:

 

"In the past, labor was cheap and technology was expensive. Today it's the other way around."

 

 

In the past, labor was cheap, so they built magnificent things by taking advantage of it (literally and figuratively). Cars, houses, buildings, railroads, theaters. All those beautiful things from the past that could never be replicated today because the costs to do so would be astronomical and the skills are non-existent and come at a premium if they do exist. Next time you see a place like Carnegie Hall on TV, look at how lovely it is. Nothing built today could approach that level of amazingness without an army of artisans working for pennies a day. It's extraordinary and probably why so many of us are drawn to cars of the past. They engender that same feeling of hard-working craftsmanship instead of efficiency by computer.

Visited Mt Rushmore a few years back and learned that is was completed for just a few dollars shy of 1 million. Today, the consulting fee just about doing the job would cost more.

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On 1/29/2019 at 11:16 AM, joe_padavano said:

 

The fact that Tesla may have an electric semi built does NOT mean that it is feasible, practical, or profitable.

 

I beg to differ, and so does Pepsi, Walmart, and Anheuser-Busch ....

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/companies-that-ordered-tesla-semi-2017-12

https://insideevs.com/100000-tesla-semi-sales-spells-18-billion-revenue/

 

In particular Anheuser-Busch is purchasing 800 (EIGHT HUNDRED) alternative fuel Semis from Nikola.

 

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1116563_budweiser-brewer-orders-800-nikola-hydrogen-powered-semi-trucks

https://insideevs.com/100000-tesla-semi-sales-spells-18-billion-revenue/

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110 years ago everyone had a horse and only the rich had an automobile. Today everyone has an automobile and only the rich have a horse. 

 

Might not apply here. I just read the above and had to use it. 

 

Charley

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1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

 

My point is that the technology flows down.  The computer processing power in a new car today is orders of magnitude greater than what Apollo used to go to the moon 50 years ago, and compared to what it cost in 1969, that computing power is nearly free today. Other technologies will similarly flow down.

 

 

Point taken Joe. There are definitely a few areas within the hobby where modern tech is useful.  

To me however the prevention of loss of old , obsolete technologies and skills seems more important to the old car hobby as I enjoy it. Both ends of the spectrum are of value within this hobby.

 

Greg

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

I beg to differ, and so does Pepsi, Walmart, and Anheuser-Busch ....

 

 

These are deposits, similar to the deposits Elon took from all those Model 3 buyers.  Again, not proof that the truck is either practical or economical to operate.  Elon has done a great job of getting the cult to send him money long before he has an actual product to deliver and long before he has demonstrated that the product actually delivers on the hype.  Wnat to bet that these deposits have cancellation clauses and refund provisions if Tesla can't deliver.  How are those $35K Model 3s doing?

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14 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

 

 

Point taken Joe. There are definitely a few areas within the hobby where modern tech is useful.  

To me however the prevention of loss of old , obsolete technologies and skills seems more important to the old car hobby as I enjoy it. Both ends of the spectrum are of value within this hobby.

 

Greg

 

 

 

I don't disagree with you. I have to laugh at all the posts I read from people who don't understand carburetors, or worse, point ignition systems.  On the other hand, I also know all too well the costs of reproducing cast parts in small quantities.  Being able to "print" them would be an incredible boon to those of us who collect less popular models.  The technology I'm really waiting for is the computerized sheet metal forming that Ford was playing with.  Think of a huge dot matrix printer that uses a series of rods to form sheet metal into body panels under computer control. 

 

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