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Your Future, will you fit?


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3 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

image.png.26324e289ad8ca7a6a8f1fc52fb04304.png

 

This is a typical environmental activist picture of pollution. Most Google searches and nearly any newspaper or magazine article will carry a similar one. Those are two clouds of water vapor coming from a large plant operating at light load. Certain types of boilers require a minimum steaming load to protect the tubes. To meet that minimum and maintain safe operation steam is vented to the atmosphere. The uniformed environmentalist will hyperventilate watching this and exhale a lot of CO2.

See the low angle of the sun in this picture. It is an early morning shot prior to the major daily load coming on, probably about 6 AM. Or the plant is one of many US plants that have reduced production but maintained high capacity. I have also seen zealous energy managers reduce loads below the boiler minimums and lose their efforts through venting of steam.

Early morning shots of cooling towers are another favorite of the enviro-journalists, quite dramatic, But they are just examples of dramatization that sensationalize what they don't understand and damage their credibility. Kind of like the store about the boy who cried "Water!".

Bernie

 

Your assessment of that photo and that plant isn't correct. I guess you thought I grabbed that photo off the internet but I didn't. It was taken by me on a cold winter day.   I was facing northeast as the sun was coming up over a hill casting a shadow on the dark portions of the photo. The sun was just high enough to hit the smokestacks and the steam. I thought it made an interesting photo.  I live near that plant and I have lots of friends that work there.  I have been inside it several times.  The steam you see coming out is not steam from the boilers vented to atmosphere as you describe.  The vented steam you describe is vented through large pipes sticking out of the roof of the building.
 

The plant has 12 smoke stacks. Two of them are 1125 feet tall. All that is used now is the short stack with the steam coming out. The plant has nine units and I think they were running at full capacity when I took the photo because it had been really cold for several days. The steam you see is coming out of part of a scrubber system (the short stack) that injects water and pulverized limestone into the hot flu gasses coming through the stack. The water injected into the hot flu gases produces the huge amount of steam you see in the photo. Certain pollutants in the flue gasses bind to the wet limestone  and falls to the bottom of the of the scrubber where they hit water that carries the limestone and some fly ash out in a slurry that eventually is dried and processed. Some of it is sold to add to concrete to make the concrete stronger. Some of the slurry is processed to recover the pulverized limestone to be sold as gypsum. What cannot be sold is buried in a landfill.

 

I don't consider myself to be an environmental activist but I am concerned about the environment we all have to live in. The reason I posted the photo was to remind people that plants like this are what power those electric vehicles and that driving an electric vehicle does result in air pollution. They are not pollution free as some people seem to think,

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Everything has an impact on the environment, the goal is to make that impact as minimal as possible.  Our country’s strides to improve air quality are outstanding compared to many others yet the fight to make continued improvement is needed to ensure the future of those who come after us. 

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And with that above statement, I should say I sure miss the days when I rode 2 stroke motorcycles that are now too polluting to be driven on the street.  The new research on electric motorcycles that offer that same crazy get up and go feeling without the smoke sure look exciting.

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18 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Here is what the exhaust systems currently looks like.

 

If that stack picture is a wet precipitator it wouldn't be "currently". It would be far too expensive to operate like that continuously. That is a capture of an isolated event. I have had incidents where I put out black smoke, the real McCoy, that looked like an eclipse. Sometimes it happens. I have been running those things since 1968. That is a departure from normal and preferred operation.

 

To the topic of "will you fit in the future". Sure, about as well as I do today. A future without cynics would be a stagnant place.

Bernie

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12 hours ago, SC38DLS said:

Did you see the electric motorcycle made by a 3D printer. Took a couple of days at a cost of $2500 all done by the printer except the motor and tires. They won’t sell it !  

Just watched it, amazing!  A good example of the technology changes we are discussing.

Imagine the hard to find auto parts that could be made this way.

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36 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

If that stack picture is a wet precipitator it wouldn't be "currently". It would be far too expensive to operate like that continuously. That is a capture of an isolated event. I have had incidents where I put out black smoke, the real McCoy, that looked like an eclipse. Sometimes it happens. I have been running those things since 1968. That is a departure from normal and preferred operation.

 

To the topic of "will you fit in the future". Sure, about as well as I do today. A future without cynics would be a stagnant place.

Bernie

 

That was not an isolated capture. The photo below was taken less the 10 minutes ago off my front porch. That is about as "current" as it gets.   I have lived here for over 10 years and that is the way it has always looked when operating. It is NORMAL operation. Apparently TVA thinks it is the preferred method.

 

SAM_4094.JPG

 

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1 hour ago, TerryB said:

Just watched it, amazing!  A good example of the technology changes we are discussing.

Imagine the hard to find auto parts that could be made this way.

 

The main drawback is that the finished 3D part may look more or less like the original however it does not have the metallurgical properties of the original. Hardness, toughness, tensile strength etc.

  The best application for 3D printing I have seen so far as regards to the car hobby is for making accurate , reduced cost patterns for casting metal parts.

There have been a few threads on this application and it does show much promise. 

 

Greg in Canada

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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20 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

 

The main drawback is that the finished 3D part may look more or less like the original however it does not have the metallurgical properties of the original. Hardness, toughness, tensile strength etc.

 

 

While I cannot speak for hobbyist-type 3D printers, in the aerospace world there are several technologies in use that routinely "print" metallic parts with properties adequate for use in highly-stressed environments.  Yes, repeatability and flaw detection are still issues being worked, but manufacturers are printing parts such as turbopump impellers and combustion chambers for rocket engines.

 

5a463c1426d9b.jpg

 

BLOGPOST-MOTOR.jpg

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Yes , I am sure that at the leading edge of the technology 3D printing is suited to certain parts.  In the car hobby however the general aim is for replacement parts to be equivalent in all practical respects to the original part. Sometimes the mechanical properties might be upgraded, a better grade of steel for example where the original is prone to failure. Or brass/ bronze castings substituting for corrosion prone pot metal. 

  Also in the old car hobby what passes as a reasonable price in the aerospace industry might not seem quite so reasonable.

 

Greg in Canada

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1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

Yes , I am sure that at the leading edge of the technology 3D printing is suited to certain parts.  In the car hobby however the general aim is for replacement parts to be equivalent in all practical respects to the original part. Sometimes the mechanical properties might be upgraded, a better grade of steel for example where the original is prone to failure. Or brass/ bronze castings substituting for corrosion prone pot metal. 

  Also in the old car hobby what passes as a reasonable price in the aerospace industry might not seem quite so reasonable.

 

Greg in Canada

 

My point is that the technology flows down.  The computer processing power in a new car today is orders of magnitude greater than what Apollo used to go to the moon 50 years ago, and compared to what it cost in 1969, that computing power is nearly free today. Other technologies will similarly flow down.

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Jay Leno had a quote that resonates with me all the time:

 

"In the past, labor was cheap and technology was expensive. Today it's the other way around."

 

 

In the past, labor was cheap, so they built magnificent things by taking advantage of it (literally and figuratively). Cars, houses, buildings, railroads, theaters. All those beautiful things from the past that could never be replicated today because the costs to do so would be astronomical and the skills are non-existent and come at a premium if they do exist. Next time you see a place like Carnegie Hall on TV, look at how lovely it is. Nothing built today could approach that level of amazingness without an army of artisans working for pennies a day. It's extraordinary and probably why so many of us are drawn to cars of the past. They engender that same feeling of hard-working craftsmanship instead of efficiency by computer.

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6 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Jay Leno had a quote that resonates with me all the time:

 

"In the past, labor was cheap and technology was expensive. Today it's the other way around."

 

 

In the past, labor was cheap, so they built magnificent things by taking advantage of it (literally and figuratively). Cars, houses, buildings, railroads, theaters. All those beautiful things from the past that could never be replicated today because the costs to do so would be astronomical and the skills are non-existent and come at a premium if they do exist. Next time you see a place like Carnegie Hall on TV, look at how lovely it is. Nothing built today could approach that level of amazingness without an army of artisans working for pennies a day. It's extraordinary and probably why so many of us are drawn to cars of the past. They engender that same feeling of hard-working craftsmanship instead of efficiency by computer.

Visited Mt Rushmore a few years back and learned that is was completed for just a few dollars shy of 1 million. Today, the consulting fee just about doing the job would cost more.

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On 1/29/2019 at 11:16 AM, joe_padavano said:

 

The fact that Tesla may have an electric semi built does NOT mean that it is feasible, practical, or profitable.

 

I beg to differ, and so does Pepsi, Walmart, and Anheuser-Busch ....

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/companies-that-ordered-tesla-semi-2017-12

https://insideevs.com/100000-tesla-semi-sales-spells-18-billion-revenue/

 

In particular Anheuser-Busch is purchasing 800 (EIGHT HUNDRED) alternative fuel Semis from Nikola.

 

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1116563_budweiser-brewer-orders-800-nikola-hydrogen-powered-semi-trucks

https://insideevs.com/100000-tesla-semi-sales-spells-18-billion-revenue/

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1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

 

My point is that the technology flows down.  The computer processing power in a new car today is orders of magnitude greater than what Apollo used to go to the moon 50 years ago, and compared to what it cost in 1969, that computing power is nearly free today. Other technologies will similarly flow down.

 

 

Point taken Joe. There are definitely a few areas within the hobby where modern tech is useful.  

To me however the prevention of loss of old , obsolete technologies and skills seems more important to the old car hobby as I enjoy it. Both ends of the spectrum are of value within this hobby.

 

Greg

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

I beg to differ, and so does Pepsi, Walmart, and Anheuser-Busch ....

 

 

These are deposits, similar to the deposits Elon took from all those Model 3 buyers.  Again, not proof that the truck is either practical or economical to operate.  Elon has done a great job of getting the cult to send him money long before he has an actual product to deliver and long before he has demonstrated that the product actually delivers on the hype.  Wnat to bet that these deposits have cancellation clauses and refund provisions if Tesla can't deliver.  How are those $35K Model 3s doing?

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14 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

 

 

Point taken Joe. There are definitely a few areas within the hobby where modern tech is useful.  

To me however the prevention of loss of old , obsolete technologies and skills seems more important to the old car hobby as I enjoy it. Both ends of the spectrum are of value within this hobby.

 

Greg

 

 

 

I don't disagree with you. I have to laugh at all the posts I read from people who don't understand carburetors, or worse, point ignition systems.  On the other hand, I also know all too well the costs of reproducing cast parts in small quantities.  Being able to "print" them would be an incredible boon to those of us who collect less popular models.  The technology I'm really waiting for is the computerized sheet metal forming that Ford was playing with.  Think of a huge dot matrix printer that uses a series of rods to form sheet metal into body panels under computer control. 

 

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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

Jay Leno had a quote that resonates with me all the time:

 

"In the past, labor was cheap and technology was expensive. Today it's the other way around."

 

 

In the past, labor was cheap, so they built magnificent things by taking advantage of it (literally and figuratively). Cars, houses, buildings, railroads, theaters. All those beautiful things from the past that could never be replicated today because the costs to do so would be astronomical and the skills are non-existent and come at a premium if they do exist. Next time you see a place like Carnegie Hall on TV, look at how lovely it is. Nothing built today could approach that level of amazingness without an army of artisans working for pennies a day. It's extraordinary and probably why so many of us are drawn to cars of the past. They engender that same feeling of hard-working craftsmanship instead of efficiency by computer.

Carnegie Hall?

Image result for image of acropolis

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

 

These are deposits, similar to the deposits Elon took from all those Model 3 buyers.  Again, not proof that the truck is either practical or economical to operate.  Elon has done a great job of getting the cult to send him money long before he has an actual product to deliver and long before he has demonstrated that the product actually delivers on the hype.  Wnat to bet that these deposits have cancellation clauses and refund provisions if Tesla can't deliver.  How are those $35K Model 3s doing?

The best selling luxury car in the US for 2018 according to Car and Driver is the Tesla Model 3.  Guess somebody likes them.

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I guess in the end it all comes down to what your goals are and the extent that your wallet is able  to achieve those goals. 

 It is most apparent in my other car hobby interest, vintage sports car racing. The people who have the goal of a safe , fast, dependable car sometimes end up with a car that has a large percentage of components manufactured decades later than the advertised "year" of the car.

  I am currently contemplating purchasing the post restoration left over pile of parts from a "minor league" but pretty significant vintage race car. The pile is cheap and includes quite a bit of what the restoration started with. The owner was aware of the significance of the car , had pretty deep pockets , and wanted the finished car to be both competitive and as near perfect as possible. The pile of parts could definitely help me with one of my projects, I have neither deep pockets or the need for perfection.

  Other people want significant cars to be as original as possible even if that means the car borders on being unusable static exhibits or at best very limited , restrained use.

And I see much the same tendencies in the vintage road car side of things.  Cars that get used a lot, especially very early cars , end up with more and more  newly manufactured parts as the decades go by. Obviously not all of them , just a rough generalization.  And new technologies are often used in the creation of the parts.

 

Greg in Canada

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54 minutes ago, TerryB said:

The best selling luxury car in the US for 2018 according to Car and Driver is the Tesla Model 3.  Guess somebody likes them.

 

Really?  How do they define "best selling"???  Tesla delivered a grand total of 245,240 cars in 2018, with just under 146,000 of those being Model 3s. Mercedes delivers about 200,000 cars A MONTH.  Tell me again about this "best selling" BS?

 

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Can you electric car lovers answer a hypothetical question?  I'm hiking along a road in the middle of no were, the town I last walked through 25 miles away had a hospital. I don't own a cell phone, and a guy driving in the oncoming lane stops his electric car, and shuts it off, gets out and falls unconscious in the roadway. I've seen electric cars,  but had no reason to sit in one. Could I stuff the electric guy in the car and somehow figure how to start the thing and drive the 25 miles to the hospital, or is this a "Leroy, you're going to die." story? Bob 

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1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said:

Can you electric car lovers answer a hypothetical question?  I'm hiking along a road in the middle of no were, the town I last walked through 25 miles away had a hospital. I don't own a cell phone, and a guy driving in the oncoming lane stops his electric car, and shuts it off, gets out and falls unconscious in the roadway. I've seen electric cars,  but had no reason to sit in one. Could I stuff the electric guy in the car and somehow figure how to start the thing and drive the 25 miles to the hospital, or is this a "Leroy, you're going to die." story? Bob 

As long as the key is in it or on the driver, yes. Put it in gear and go.  Nothing weird about that. Model 3 has a key card that looks a lot like a credit card.  There is no crank sticking out of the front and no advance lever to adjust.  These new fangled cars are amazing!

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4 hours ago, just me said:

110 years ago everyone had a horse and only the rich had an automobile. Today everyone has an automobile and only the rich have a horse. 

 

Might not apply here. I just read the above and had to use it. 

 

Charley

Charley. Never buy anything that eats while you sleep! 

 

Dave S 

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4 hours ago, TerryB said:

As long as the key is in it or on the driver, yes. Put it in gear and go.  Nothing weird about that. Model 3 has a key card that looks a lot like a credit card.  There is no crank sticking out of the front and no advance lever to adjust.  These new fangled cars are amazing!

Ok, If you say so. I'm still trying to find some place that would rent a Mini Cooper for a day, only new car that has that effect on me. Bob 

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My DD cad has no door handle, you just put your hand in the recess and pull. At least two people have been trapped in them. It also has a non-removable ignition key but coupes are few and far between..  Florida is a great place to grow sugar cane, sugar beets, and sweet sorghum. I can build a still in the back yard and run my tow car off it. We have had gasoline in various forms for over 100 years. 25 more and I won't care.

 

If I fill my back yard with solar cells I might be able to recharge a ZAP (Santa Rosa).

 

Am currently 86 feet above sea level. Wonder what island life would be like.

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11 hours ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

They might be fine for intra city short hauls but getting stuff hauled cross country? Nope.

An engine driven semi can be fueled up in 10 minutes and on the road again.

An electric not so much.

Unless they develop some kind of "charging on the go" they won't replace conventional semis any time soon and how much charging current is required anyway?

They fail to mention the charging time after, what I expect are hopeful mileage figures, when they need charging.

 

https://www.tesla.com/semi?redirect=no 

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8 hours ago, padgett said:

We have had gasoline in various forms for over 100 years. 25 more and I won't care.

.

Padgett are you saying you are a hundred and going to be driving another 25 years?  Wow my hat is off too you !  LOL

Dave S

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16 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Could I stuff the electric guy in the car and somehow figure how to start the thing and drive the 25 miles to the hospital,

 

That brought back an old memory. At a workplace we transitioned from the last generation of fluidic pneumatic controls to an over complicated analog/digital system. One of our "larger" mechanics was having a very frustrating time at the workstation keyboard one morning. The guy watching him with me leaned close and said "Throw him a banana with the peel still on it." That was over 35 years ago. Evolution is not always easy.

Bernie

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19 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

These are deposits, similar to the deposits Elon took from all those Model 3 buyers.  Again, not proof that the truck is either practical or economical to operate.  Elon has done a great job of getting the cult to send him money long before he has an actual product to deliver and long before he has demonstrated that the product actually delivers on the hype.  Wnat to bet that these deposits have cancellation clauses and refund provisions if Tesla can't deliver.  How are those $35K Model 3s doing?

 

Joe,

 

Cult is Tucker selling 50 cars on salesmanship alone. Tesla has sold over 1/2 MILLION cars, half of which he sold in 2018. Tesla sold $21BILLION in automobiles in 2018. 

 

As to delivering on the hype and the $35k Model 3: He's SHIPPED 138,000 to date, and it's ranked #1 by Car and Driver.  https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g25741172/best-selling-luxury-cars-suv-2018/

 

I get it.  You're not impressed by Tesla. But facts are facts.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-vehicle-deliveries/

 

As to the Semi.  Based upon their track record of selling cars, and based upon companies like Pepsi, Walmart, and Anheuser-Busch putting their money down, there is no reason to believe Tesla wont deliver.

 

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38 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

Joe,

 

Cult is Tucker selling 50 cars on salesmanship alone. Tesla has sold over 1/2 MILLION cars, half of which he sold in 2018. Tesla sold $21BILLION in automobiles in 2018. 

 

As to delivering on the hype and the $35k Model 3: He's SHIPPED 138,000 to date, and it's ranked #1 by Car and Driver.  https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g25741172/best-selling-luxury-cars-suv-2018/

 

I get it.  You're not impressed by Tesla. But facts are facts.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-vehicle-deliveries/

 

As to the Semi.  Based upon their track record of selling cars, and based upon companies like Pepsi, Walmart, and Anheuser-Busch putting their money down, there is no reason to believe Tesla wont deliver.

 

 

Elon has shipped exactly NO Model 3s at $35K, and never will.  And while they may have done $21B in revenue last year, they LOST $1B doing it.  Also, most analysts are skeptical that Tesla will be able to beat 2018 performance this year, as their short-term production-increasing stunts are not sustainable. I've been in meetings with Elon for SpaceX.  Suffice to say that he's as much of a con artist with an inflated ego as another Twitter user that we know. As for "cult", I'd argue that "selling" half a million Model 3s before a running prototype even existed puts Tucker to shame as far as being a huckster.  And I've seen the C&D article. Who defined the low-end Model 3 as a "luxury car"? Also, as I pointed out above, Mercedes sells nearly as many cars a month as Tesla sold in all of 2018; GM sells about that many cars in a week; and neither lose money doing it. But hey, Tesla has a higher market cap... 🙄

 

Not wanting to be part of a cult is why I don't own any Apple products, either. 😉

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10 hours ago, cahartley said:

 

They might be fine for intra city short hauls but getting stuff hauled cross country? Nope.

An engine driven semi can be fueled up in 10 minutes and on the road again.

An electric not so much.

Unless they develop some kind of "charging on the go" they won't replace conventional semis any time soon and how much charging current is required anyway?

They fail to mention the charging time after, what I expect are hopeful mileage figures, when they need charging.

 

https://www.tesla.com/semi?redirect=no 

Got to get that Semi sentiment out of peoples head. Long haul should be done by Rail. It's been proven over and over again that it is much cheaper.

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Tesla is marketing the model 3 with a $46,00.00 base price in Canada. I my province buyers are eligible for a $6,000.00 rebate incentive from the Govt. $40,000.00 is definitely not cheap in my household. My last {daily driver} car purchase was a $10,000.00 Hyundai Accent . less than a year old trade in as the original purchaser found it too small. I can buy a lot of gas for $30,000.00 even at B.C.'s high price.  The Accent has so far been extremely trouble free and that's after 230,000 KM. , roughly 140,000 { mostly highway commuting} miles. Still going remarkably well, easy , cheap maintenance, still on original clutch. 3rd set of tires just installed. 

 

 

  Will those who plunk down for a model 3 see this sort of low cost service and satisfaction ?

 

It's a hatchback and if needed I take the Passenger seat out and use it as a very capable hauler. Engines on down have come home in it, even a very large 1920 Hudson drum to drum rear end when I was at a swap meet without a truck. About the only thing it does not do is tow my tandem car trailer.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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