MCHinson Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 The best way to understand the issue is to read the 24 pages at the link previously posted. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victorialynn2 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, MCHinson said: The best way to understand the issue is to read the 24 pages at the link previously posted. Thanks, I posted that question before I read the entire thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick8086 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 I found this on line: http://autoweek.com/article/classic-cars/why-im-not-worried-about-future-collector-cars Not sure 10 years from now what will happen.. Kids today do not save or hoard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomCox Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, mike6024 said: How about I put this link here because it seems the best summary. AACA withdraws financial support from AACA Museum after merger negotiations fall through Hopefully the link works, but if not here is...... Unfortunately this is rather incomplete. For those who wish to see a more well rounded account, I encourage them to read the posts Matt Hinson suggests...there is more to come. Edited March 25, 2018 by TomCox (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJFord54 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 45 minutes ago, TomCox said: Unfortunately this is rather incomplete. For those who wish to see a more well rounded account, I encourage them to read the posts Matt Hinson suggests...there is more to come. Go get 'um Tom - We're all behind you! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moskowitz Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 (edited) Well, you leave for a couple of days and look what happens! Hey, folks I needed a little humor today. You will be getting a thorough and complete explanation in the next couple of days including documentation and proof that the letter sent by the museum board was nothing more than an attempt to smear our club and cause discontent within our ranks. You will hear from our entire board and you will see a document from our attorney that will speak volumes. Not innuendo, not "we have heard" but a fact based document. You will have to ask yourself why the museum is fighting to keep a charade of a relationship when it is not a part of AACA. This is by far the strongest words I have used here since this tragic story has begun. There are some people on the museum board I like and respect. I have no idea why they are a party to all of this but that is their right. I know one thing, your executive director and your board have not made this personal and you have to question what kind of person or persons use this as a tactic (which it obviously is). Now for the opposite. THANK YOU! To all of you who have stood up for me personally (hey guys it goes with the territory to get a little mud slung) and for AACA and our leadership I cannot possibly convey my great appreciation for your willingness to go public with your thoughts. I do not know all of you but I do know some, we do not always agree but we have done so respectfully. A lesson others need to learn. The other opposite, and not meant to highjack this thread was the wonderful members who put on our Winter Meet this weekend. Wow what a great, warm and hospitable crew! It was a fabulous weekend for the club and all who attended in a great location. Most of your board were in attendance. AACA is about what is good in the hobby. Consider our mission, this forum that hosts many car clubs for free, our library that is free to the world and on and on in small and big ways. Now we are going to add another major great step around the country for AACA to be present at other antique car related venues. Stay tuned! We hope to have our response out to the museum's letter on Monday but if not I am sure by Tuesday. We will not sink into the gutter to give a response although it would be fun! Edited March 26, 2018 by Steve Moskowitz As a representative of the club I should have chosen my words more carefully. I put myself in the woodshed! (see edit history) 11 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcslr Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 I was taken aback by the letter. I was disappointed and somewhat surprised by the language. It just did not impress me as a language and tone appropriate for a group of directors - not that I know any of them. I do not recall any mention during the meeting by either Steve M or Tom C about this as was implied in the letter. Perhaps I have forgotten and since forgotten. I don't personally know either Steve M or Tom C but have had some business dealing with Steve wrt some tours. I've found him to be reasonable, forth-right, consistent, dependable and delivered what he committed to. Having been on boards dealing with similar tense, difficult issues - I appreciate the tension and challenge of this situation. I have a 95-99% confidence level ( statistics) that the Director and AACA board are doing the right things and this will ultimately be resolved. My hope is that all things work out and we all get along. But hope is not a plan. I believe the AACA has a plan. Let us commit to support the plan. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 Apparently the museum was given the right to use AACA in their name at some point. And dues were shared with the museum in exchange for free admission. Now you can note the museum emphasizes how free admission has been continued despite the cessation of financial support. So what this adds up to is that if there is indeed a legal battle over the right to use AACA in the museum's name there should be some interesting legal arguments by both sides. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 Don't all museums die when people stop going to them? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 Since January I've been a volunteer at the museum actually, which really means I don't know a darn thing that goes on outside of what I do. I have been able to get over there maybe 2-3 times a month and give gallery tours. Most folks I've had the privilege to talk to haven't been members. Off season not that many of us visit I suppose, but I do have a pretty small sample size. I was also a bit surprised by the letter's tone, but could consider justifying it somewhat if they really felt some progress had been made and that this felt like some sort of backstabbing action by the club. That is how the letter reads to me (I'm not saying it's right or wrong). But still, it seems to be airing dirty laundry very publicly where that might not be fully appropriate and I'm not sure to what end it helps bring. I just know that the museum is still a great place and serves a great mission. I still hope in some future the two sides come back together. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Novak Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 I'm sure more information is forth coming so let the kettle boil till then. When it comes to legal maters all the facts are best held back until the time is right. The Club is on solid ground due to the actions by others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hill Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 There are usually three sides to every story - one side, the other side and the truth. Not saying that anyone is purposely misleading the other but somewhere between all the innuendos from each side there is a middle ground. Guess that will be found in court or more than likely, behind closed doors among a bunch of lawyers. Bob 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 I still don't understand how you can have the Antique Automobile Club of America Museum, on all their signage and paper work BUT, they aren't affiliated with the Antique Automobile Club of America. Doesn't the Club have a copyright to the name. It's like having the New York Botanical Garden, located in Denver. If the Museum is not part if the A.A.C.A, they should not be able to use the name. It's kind of like false advertising. I read the letter several times and I keep coming back to the "several hundred thousand dollar" legal fees, really? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, 46 woodie said: I still don't understand how you can have the Antique Automobile Club of America Museum, on all their signage and paper work BUT, they aren't affiliated with the Antique Automobile Club of America. Doesn't the Club have a copyright to the name. It's like having the New York Botanical Garden, located in Denver. If the Museum is not part if the A.A.C.A, they should not be able to use the name. It's kind of like false advertising. I read the letter several times and I keep coming back to the "several hundred thousand dollar" legal fees, really? It's because of the good nature and intent in which the museum was founded, and without getting into actual politics too much, a byproduct of the 16th amendment of the constitution... It's not as simple as supposing you or I simply decided to start selling licence plates with AACA on (which would be easy since lets be honest, the club really does a poor job of merchandising). The museum was created to be a side legal entity of the club and eventually merged. So permission was granted, intentionally so, for the museum to carry the AACA name, just like the AACA Library. The lack of formal association is new and I don't pretend to know the legal president there. I'm certainly no lawyer though, so I won't pretend my ideas of common sense matter much. Edited March 26, 2018 by Frantz (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 16 minutes ago, Frantz said: I don't pretend to know the legal president there. I'm certainly no lawyer er, precedent... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 haha, yes thanks! I'm too young not to be shamefully dependent on squiggly red lines under my errors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Frantz said: I just know that the museum is still a great place and serves a great mission. Well, I sure would have agreed with you a little over a year ago. Now, I believe that the millions of dollars donated to the museum have swelled not only the asset column of same, but also the egos of the some, or many, of the members of the museum board of directors. I'm using lower case on purpose, by the way, referencing the bod, out of little respect. I'm not privy to all the comings and goings of the AACA Club, but at some point, the museum got away from the main goal, and from any control whatsoever from the Club, and non-car people were put on the museum bod. Once the board of directors started talking money and not hobby nor history, all was lost. Again, I know life is complicated, but keeping the goals of the museum and club in sync should have been a huge goal, a primary objective, yet somehow, the focus slipped away... I believe you'll soon start to see an "adjustment" in the assets, and some of the really nice "assets" will be monetarily adjusted. Umm, that means, sold. When the Gene Becker Model 66 Pierce goes up for sale, a half million dollar "asset" to the museum board, then you know my prediction is correct, and it will probably happen. He drove that car to decades of Pierce meets all over the country, drove, not trailered, and he and his wife surely thought they were doing the right thing contributing to the AACA. Very sad..... There are examples of antique car museums, separate from the marque club for the same reasons the AACA Club state, yet they are successful and aligned with the desires and needs of the marque clubs. What a shame this museum went awry.... Edited March 27, 2018 by trimacar (see edit history) 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 The name may be in a legal quagmire (hope I spelled it correctly) but the use of the mailing list has to be illegal, unlawful, immoral and fattening! Dave S 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 I'm not sure what legal Presidents are in play here either, but I wouldn't be surprised if the museum said they were given permission to use the name in exchange for giving Club members free admission, something they in fact say they continue to do. And they would say since they have not breached, permission to use the name should continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 I mean, they shared a mailing list for many years. You'd really have to blame the club for sharing the info against your permission, but back when the club did share such info, no one would have raised an eye to that, because we were all one. I've not seen such evidence that the BOD of the museum is looking for some cash grab. I've not seen a change in the museum before or after the falling out. As I said, I'm a bit taken aback by the airing of laundry via public letter, though I've always felt the decision seemed to be made in a defensive stance to ensure their perspective was heard. I'd just like folks to take time to get a bigger perspective. To be blunt, part of that too young to know how to spell real well without a computer also means I think I'll be outliving most current club members. So all this sorta drama will eventually pass to my generation, if I'm lucky enough to have EITHER the club OR museum still around when I'm your age. You donate to these organizations because you believe in their cause and want future generations to have them. I get the anger of feeling your hard earned time and money was placed somewhere and has been hijacked, but in the process, the mission statement of neither organization really changed, just the relationships between them. And that's the real shame of it all to me. I hope we still can legally have private antique car ownership, and the legal ability to tour with them on public roads. At the same time, each great car in a museum isn't in private ownership, and isn't seen on tours. So aside from a tax gain, isn't it a wee bit of huge ego that goes to such donations too? I mean, for a nice car, I'll set up a 501c3 and take care of your pre war classics and promise to drive them all over (and park in the antique only parking at the museum)! I guess I just want folks to knock the fighting off and come together as a hobby. This one seems like some major personal differences and the mission is hurt by it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 11 hours ago, mike6024 said: I'm not sure what legal Presidents are in play here either, but I wouldn't be surprised if the museum said they were given permission to use the name in exchange for giving Club members free admission, something they in fact say they continue to do. And they would say since they have not breached, permission to use the name should continue. Not so. They were loaned use of the initials as part of the "goodwill" thought to be present and the overall plan for the museum property, totally paid for by members of the AACA club, to fully become part of the overall club organization once the club had C3 status. That status took a number of years to become a reality. By that time, the bod of the museum had changed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moskowitz Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Our response is planned to go out today. Please read it carefully. Doug you are truly a good guy. I know that to be a fact. If you enjoy being a volunteer at the museum then that is great. Continue to do so. Your club is not telling anyone not to support the museum if that is their choice, your club is not writing disparaging comments about others and your club is simply trying to fix a very real problem. If I come on this forum with a new name, Doug G. Frantz , and start posting and saying things and people think you and I are one in the same is that acceptable? Think about it. Should people not know, as a public trust, who an organization is really or not? Doug, back when the museum was allowed to share our mailing list they were asked to get our permission first. They never had blanket permission. Anyway, hopefully common sense will prevail and this all can get resolved so we all can get back to enjoying the hobby. That is what your board wishes!! 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capngrog Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 16 hours ago, Bob Hill said: There are usually three sides to every story - one side, the other side and the truth. Not saying that anyone is purposely misleading the other but somewhere between all the innuendos from each side there is a middle ground. Guess that will be found in court or more than likely, behind closed doors among a bunch of lawyers. Bob Lawyers are infamous for obscuring the "truth". The only ones who win in a situation like we have here between the museum and The Club, are the lawyers themselves. It's too bad that it became necessary to involve the lawyers. Cheers, Grog 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete O Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 The museum wants to continue to use the AACA in their name because they get free benefit from it. It gives them free advertising and the legitimacy that goes along with being associated with the AACA, even though they maneuvered themselves away organizationally from the AACA. Most people don't know what's going on here. Someone looking to go to a nice car museum in the area and finds the "AACA Museum" listed will certainly think it to be prestigious and worth going to due to the implied association with a widely recognized club. I'd bet that even the majority of the donors who gave their cars to be preserved by the AACA don't realize the maneuvers made by the museum board. If the AACA were removed from their name, some of those donors might start to think that they gave their cars under false pretenses, and that's part of the "assets" the museum board is trying to protect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said: Our response is planned to go out today. Please read it carefully. Doug you are truly a good guy. I know that to be a fact. If you enjoy being a volunteer at the museum then that is great. Continue to do so. Your club is not telling anyone not to support the museum if that is their choice, your club is not writing disparaging comments about others and your club is simply trying to fix a very real problem. If I come on this forum with a new name, Doug G. Frantz , and start posting and saying things and people think you and I are one in the same is that acceptable? Think about it. Should people not know, as a public trust, who an organization is really or not? Doug, back when the museum was allowed to share our mailing list they were asked to get our permission first. They never had blanket permission. Anyway, hopefully common sense will prevail and this all can get resolved so we all can get back to enjoying the hobby. That is what your board wishes!! Steve you're correct here! I did state I'm not sure why they feel the need for the public airing quite the way they are. As you know I try to give time to the club (both regionally and nationally) as well as the museum because I believe in the overall mission, and EVERYONE (well almost everyone) has be a pleasure to spend my time with. Even in mistakes and poor judgement there can be good intention, and that is what I was trying to pull out of all this. Personal attacks on personal attacks certainly don't help the cause. I have nothing to gain with either side being right or wrong, but I, and everyone else who cares, has much to lose with the fight occurring. I'll add this too, because I think it's important. Any publicity is good publicity. I talk to far more "outsiders" at the museum than at the club. I get to talk about the club and it's judging system at times through the gallery tour process.Without a specific question, I see no value to highlight the separation when talking to guests. Most other volunteers I know are club members too and while I can't actually speak for the club, the museum, or the volunteers, I feel it's safe to say we're generally ambassadors to the hobby and the passion of antique automobiles and freely promote both organizations. I'll skirt whatever I feel I can to promote unity. Edit note: I think I misread the original post by Steve, I was speaking to the idea that they were basically putting you out on the carpet by name in the letter, and telling me what you said, where I'd rather get such details from yourself and if you choose to share it. I believe you were directly referring to the issue of the use of the name, and I'm frankly a bit more torn here. I do think you're correct, but I don't think it's actually bad for the club, if the mission is continuing to be the same as founded and intended by the club. Edited March 27, 2018 by Frantz (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moskowitz Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?m=1102261497032&ca=fc3edade-bc90-4d38-891a-28007b82005e This is the club's reply...just sent out by your board of directors. 10 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Stein Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Thank you for the well-thought-out and informative reply. A lot of work and forethought went into the email. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) Steve, I tried to give you a ‘Like’ and a ‘Thanks’ but it only lets us give one. So thank you and the rest of the board. I like the response and feel it is very well written. Keep up the good work you are appreciated. Don’t let the turkeys get you down. Have fun. Dave S Edited March 27, 2018 by SC38DLS (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J&J Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 The letter has this quote: "Therefore, the Museum cannot agree to allowing the Club to advertise its displays and attempt to divert customers away from the Museum. " I really hope that there is no agreement in place that limits the real AACA from having its own museum if it wants to! If the Museum wants to be the AACA's museum it should have merged back in instead of declaring its independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 Extra! Extra! Read all about it, get your First Edition! Excellent response, Steve, and the absurdity of the museum trying to tell the Club not to exhibit certain cars is beyond belief. I don't think there's any way in the world that could be enforced, any more than an arcade telling the local IHOP not to put a claw machine in the lobby. I personally think a better name for the museum would help them attract the general public visiting the Hershey area, as AACA really means nothing to the huge majority of the world. Does having that name mean they confuse enough people to keep getting donations from people thinking they're helping the Club? There can be only two things driving the bod of the museum to be behaving like little children, that's either egos or greed. I hope in the end there's a peaceful end to this, although in the back of my mind I'd like to see the bod of the museum get their comeuppance.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_S_in_Penna Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 AACA's March 27 letter to us (Posting #66) states that the museum has made "recent legal filings which seek to vest in the Museum, rather than in the Club, the exclusive rights to use marks such as AACA." [first paragraph of letter] Can some AACA officer provide more explanation? If true, that would be the most ungrateful and selfish theft-- the museum wanting themselves to have exclusive right to the letters "AACA"? Other organizations, such as the American Association of Certified Appraisers, and the Asian American Civic Association, might even take issue with that affrontery. I have friends involved at both the club and the museum, but I want untrammeled justice and truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalef62 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 I think the AACA Club should open it's own "AACA Museum"!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Donate about 6 mill it willget it done,What about the great folks who donated cars to the museum and gone,our cars.im done till I know where the money goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moskowitz Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 OK, if I am allowed a few personal thoughts. Please understand that I have not seen anyone at AACA relish this mess. We are sick of having to answer letters to OUR members over issues that they really do not want to be involved in. Members want to ENJOY the hobby and not deal with these messy deals. Sadly we felt forced to defend our reputation. John, the part in the letter you referred to is a legal issue and none of us will be "trying" these matters in public. Those words were written by our counsel and at the appropriate time they will be made known to all unless the gods shine upon us, we settle this whole issue simply and both the museum and the club can go forward doing what they need to do. I promised the board when they hired me that I would be active on our forums and I have done my best to answer you "guys" as much as possible. Out of necessity I may have to say little in the near future but I thank all of you on behalf of our board for your support. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJFord54 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, trimacar said: Does having that name mean they confuse enough people to keep getting donations from people thinking they're helping the Club? BINGO !!!!! You Trimacar have won the Grand Prize for your assessment! Let me go back to my statement: "Having their cake and eating it too". Edited March 27, 2018 by AJFord54 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 16 minutes ago, AJFord54 said: BINGO !!!!! You Trimacar have won the Grand Prize for your assessment! Let me go back to my statement: "Having their cake and eating it too". Yeah, I learned my lesson in college, I was dating two girls at the same time. They each found out about it, and there was hell to pay. I learned you can't have your Kate and Edith too..... I feel sorry for Steve and others involved in this issue at the upper levels, such idiocy sucks the fun out of old cars at times, and this is one of those times. My sympathy. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 In reference to old car fan, post 73. I wonder if all the people that were duped into donating a car to the Museum, thinking that they were donating it to the A.A.C.A. have any legal recourse to get their cars back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Bond Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Great response from our club. I'm still disgusted that they have turned their backs on the very people who created that museum to begin with. Our region (Tidewater) was a major contributor and we all feel duped and taken advantage of. They literally gave us the finger when they eliminated the Regions and Chapters Room where clubs had their histories exhibited and were honored for their contributions. We were simply told to come get our stuff! Now they dare to try and tell us what we can and cannot do, displaying cars and automobilia, as we've always done at our headquarters. Now the new building will at last enable us to get that poor Overland off the front porch and into proper storage and display. I can't wait to see more automobilia exhibited at the new facility, as has been done previously at our current building. Terry 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnniesSS Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 It's really so sad how this has come down All because of money... it's always about money. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victorialynn2 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 The best part of AACA that I have found is the helpfulness and dignity of the members compared to other car or social groups I have been involved with. The museum does not have the same morals from what I see of this mess. I am glad you are working to distinguish yourself from them. They do not deserve to ride on the coattails of a group that they have done so wrong. I am so sorry to all the members dealing with the mess they are creating. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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