tjbuick Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Will this car accept a modern engine and transmission upgrade with no real modifications required. Engine mounts, transmission mounts, adapters, etc. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 A 57 TBird already has a "modern engine/drivetrain". Changing to "more modern" engine will also likely reduce the resale value by 50% or more..............Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 No, it is not possible to modify a car with no real modifications.You can install a newer engine without hacking the car beyond recognition but obviously, modifying a car requires modifications. And, if you save all the old parts, it will be possible for some future owner to change it back - at a cost.The way it usually works out it is cheaper to rebuild the old engine than install a new one. This does not seem right, when a newer engine seems to cost less than the rebuild. But it does not take into account the high cost of hand work, custom made parts, and the many hours spent in fitting and modifying. Especially if you want to avoid a crude hack job that reduces the car to junk or "rat rod" status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 First, this is the wrong forum to ask that question, as the majority of members here prefer stock to modified vehicles. Second, there have been many, many engine swaps into early T-birds. I suggest you try Google - you'll get a lot of hits. The engine bay is large enough for an FE Ford motor without hacking, but the small block Ford/C4 or AOD combo is the most popular. None of these are a bolt-in. As noted, fabrication will be required. If you are careful during the installation, you can do this swap in a way that it can be reversed later. As noted, a fully stock early T-bird will be worth more than one with an engine swap. I don't know that I believe a 50% reduction, but it will be a reduction. Your car, your money, your call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Joe ,very well said,and I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Joe ,very well said,and I agree. I do as well. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I would also add that hot rodders have paid some attention to the Ford Y block V8 in recent years and have found fixes for some long standing bugs and developed certain improvements. A rebuilt Y block would be a very satisfactory power plant for your car. A new small block V8 of similar displacement, would have little or no advantage in power, reliability or anything else.There is no reason to change to a different motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 1957 Thunderbird Drivetrain UpgradeWill this car accept a modern engine and transmission upgrade with no real modifications required..First, this is the wrong forum to ask that question, as the majority of members here prefer stock to modified vehicles. On this web site such major change would be considered a downgrade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 There's no such thing as a "bolt in" engine swap unless you're changing from one type of Y-block to another. It's a huge project just to get the engine in there, never mind running and driving properly. Sure, it can be done, but depending on your technical acumen, it's a long road and you'll spend more money on little stuff (engine mounts, wiring, transmission mount, custom driveshaft, linkages, radiator, oiling system, etc.) than you'd spend rebuilding the engine that's already in there, which IS a bolt-in.I agree with the others who say that dropping some garden-variety late-model V8 will hurt the car's value, and, more critically its marketability. Such a car will be VERY hard to sell if that day ever comes and you will likely need to discount it a significant amount to unload it (I don't think 50% is a crazy number). Stock Thunderbirds are a known quantity with good club and parts support, and you can buy good ones for $25-30,000 all day long. A modified car, regardless of how well done, will have a much smaller potential market and you'll have to convince those buyers that you didn't do hack work putting the engine in there. If you do it, document everything so that a future owner who has to repair the car knows what parts you used. Nothing worse than a modified car with a long list of mystery parts on it. Oh, the voltage regulator is bad, but the builder used one from a later car. Which one? How is it wired? What's the part number? A "build book" with all of these details will help build confidence.Think about it, what would you rather buy: a car that was built and engineered by the Ford factory or a car that was built and engineered by some home mechanic in his garage?Now, that said, I'd consider building a strong Y-block and doing something the an E-Bird dual quad setup or even an F-Bird supercharger. They had good power back then and you could have a lot of fun with an otherwise pretty stock 'Bird. Isn't that more interesting than a lame 5.0 with a carburetor? Or if you want more highway-friendly manners, a stock 312 Y-block with an AOD transmission and a set of taller 3.50 gears might make it feel quicker without fundamentally changing the car's personality, and it's a modification that is completely invisible until you're under the car. Unless you specifically want to build a full custom car, don't do an engine swap. If you just want a nice old 'Bird you can drive regularly, use what you've got and add some appropriate upgrades when you're rebuilding it.Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I would put a Hemi in there and cut a big hole in the hood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I would put a Hemi in there and cut a big hole in the hood.Nah, SOHC 427, or Boss 429. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) A couple of years ago I was considering buying a 1956 Packard with a Buick V8. I offered $2500. The owner not only turned it down, he got sore as the devil. He had paid $4500 for the Packard then paid $3500 for someone to install a junkyard Buick engine and trans. In his mind it was worth $4500+ $3500 = $8000. I couldn't persuade him that changing to the wrong engine actually reduced the car's value.So he put it on Ebay. Top bid, $2200.I should point out that a 57 Tbird is a far more valuable collector car than a 56 Packard sedan, and any non stock changes will depreciate the value in proportion. Edited January 6, 2015 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mellor NJ Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 There were some fiberglass replica Early Birds made by Shay and others. They're no where near as valuable as the real deals but if you had one of them it wouldn't much matter what you did to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottD961 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I'd go really radical. Pontiac Iron Duke ! LOL Sorry, had to. Cut up an old T-Bird? Nope nevah ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) I did some research on what's out there for Ford Y-blocks a few months ago. I was surprised! Especially at the power people claimed for some normal engine parts upgrades.I suspect that if you have a rebuilt Y-block, use modern oil in it, you'll not have the issues that were present back when they were just "used cars". Better oils, better detergent packges, etc. Flat tappets? Just use some of the newer "hot rod" oils in it, even "diesel-rated" oil with more zddp than normal oils have in them.You might not know it, but if you have a "Ford-o-matic", it's actually a three speed automatic. In "D", it starts in second gear, but if you floor it, it kicks down into low gear if the speed is slow enough. Or you can use manual "L" and then upshift manually. I was trying to think if the Dual Range Cruise-o-Matic was out in '57?. In D1, it got all three forward gears. In D2, it started in second gear.The Y-block Ford engine was very advanced for its time. Problem was that they just didn't how to harness the many design features, which was not figured out until later years.What you might consider, would be some type of electronic ignition system to replace the point system. Other thing would be a more modern version of the Holley 4bbl, or an add-on throttle body fuel injection system which would hide under the stock air cleaner. "Incognito upgrades".The transmission, although "Ford", was really "Borg-Warner". No real problem with parts, that I'm aware of. In some respects, the 50% price reduction might be a little light, when compared to an Amos Mintor-restored T-bird. It might be a higher percentage reduction!The Ford Y-block uses "mushroom" flat tappet valve lifters. The larger base diameter of the lifter gives it a lift curve similar to a roller lifter cam in other engines. Do a google search for "Ford Y-block" and you'll be surprised what you might find. Seems like there's a website "For Y-blocks Only"?There's always been strong support for Early Birds with respect to repair/replacement parts, even body parts. Many local and national clubs, too! You might check them out and possibly attend one of their national events to get some ideas and talk to owners.Enjoy!NTX5467 Edited January 6, 2015 by NTX5467 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I think you guys are preaching to the choir. The only post the OP has is the first one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Managed to scare away another newbie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjbuick Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 My post was not to stir the s..t pot but strictly for information. I do appreciate the feedback that has transpired and the evident passion. <o:p></o:p> The car was purchased by my uncle in 1960 and is about to be passed to a 4th generation family member. It is a true un-restored survivor and was and is used as a summer cruiser. It has a 312, Edmunds Tri-Power, Hedman Headers, and automatic as it has been since the early sixties. The car has never been cobbled and all original parts were preserved. My re-power question was to to see if a set of available mounts, 302, C4 or such may be something simple to consider.<o:p></o:p> The value is not an issue as I don’t see it going anywhere anytime soon. <o:p></o:p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry W Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 1957 Thunderbird Drivetrain UpgradeOn this web site such major change would be considered a downgrade. I agree, my sentiments exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 My post was not to stir the s..t pot but strictly for information.I do appreciate the feedback that has transpired and the evident passion. <o:p></o>The car was purchased by my uncle in 1960 and is about to be passed to a 4th generation family member.It is a true un-restored survivor and was and is used as a summer cruiser.It has a 312, Edmunds Tri-Power, Hedman Headers, and automatic as it has been since the early sixties.The car has never been cobbled and all original parts were preserved.My re-power question was to to see if a set of available mounts, 302, C4 or such may be something simple to consider.<o:p></o>The value is not an issue as I don’t see it going anywhere anytime soon. <o:p></o>Personally I wouldn't mess with that. When you pop the hood at your local cruise you will get the rewards of period original. ("as it has been since the early sixties" as your uncle wanted it). If it has a 302 in it folks will just walk on by. It may not be going anywhere soon but it will someday when your kids or grand kids get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleach Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Don't swap anything. It won't be a survivor if the swap is done. The 312 is just as reliable as a 302. The three deuces only run off one of carbs unless you open it up.A good place for getting the most out of your Y-block is here: http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Default.aspx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) Since the car is so original, it would probably cost LESS to rebuild the stock engine than to install a second hand Mustang engine and trans. And doing so would not cut the car's value in half but increase it.Suggest you do a compression test and tune up the engine if it is in decent shape. If compression and oil pressure are bad, you have a worn engine. It may be possible to nurse it along but at some point a rebuild will be necessary. And of course, if you do a proper rebuild you have a new engine, not a second hand junkyard engine of unknown quality.The Edmunds intake, headers etc. would be considered "contemporary accessories" compatible with the age of the car, and actually increase interest, desirability and value. That intake with linkages carbs and air filters would cost $1000 to replace.There are shops around the country that specialize in rebuilding the Y block Ford engine. I don't know where they are but the Ford fans on here would. Edited January 6, 2015 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersix Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Managed to scare away another newbie...I don't think he's a newbie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordrodsteven Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Hello TJBuick. I myself have a modified 55 'bird that I bought 39 years ago. It had a 289 / auto. I later changed it to a 302 / auto. Regarding your question about the work required for the 57 I would recommend searching at the Thunderbird web site (CTCI or NEVT). When I bought my T-bird I befriended a man (He was president of New England Thunderbird Club which may now be NEVT) who told me he had written an article that was published (I think it was in the NEVT publication), His how-to article was how to install a Ford big block (390) into a 57 'bird. Hope this helps. As you can see by my member name I am not too worried about keeping my 55 "stock" Sorry if I offend anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 39 years ago a 55 Tbird was just another second hand car, the same age as a 94 Tbird today. Nobody thought they would ever have collector value or historical interest. Do you ever wish you kept it stock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidAU Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I wouldn't change it. Modify yes, change No. You know you can buy aluminium heads and all the good gear you would ever want for a Y block. You can also get a trans adaptor to put a Turbo 700 gearbox behind it which would be about the best thing you could ever do. About 1800 rpm at 60 mphhttp://www.ford-y-block.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I don't think he's a newbie.Four posts at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersix Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Four posts at the time.Join Date: Dec 2005. <dl class="userinfo_extra"><dd> </dd></dl> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordrodsteven Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 hi Rusty_OToole - Actually T-Birds at the time (restored) were running around $25K. They were collectible back then and had quite a large following. In time period dollars I would think it's probably close to $45 - 55K in todays dollars. They really weren't just "second hand cars". Any way - I had thought about getting it restored to original but I felt the quotes I was being given reflected that my car was not a rust free candidate. I was getting quotes of $50 to 60K and no promises it would be close to being a car I could show. There's another person on this forum with a tag line that says "if you don't drive it you may as well collect clocks" That is also my sentiment. When I bought it and drove it for a few months it garnered a lot of attention. I decided then it would not be a trailer queen for showing. I would make it a "driver" and I knew I would be very happy with it. I decided I would not be a purist. That probably bothers people at this forum but it is not dollar effective for me to even consider putting this car back to original and no, I do not regret my decision. Most people on this forum would look at my car and feel it is just a "donor car" I have the ability and the the time (since I'm now retired) to bring this car back to a driver. Many things happened over the years that kept me from getting it done (jobs, moving, family) but I think I finally reached a point where I can work on my T-bird. It will be updated with more modern drive train, disc brakes and electronics. The body and interior will look stock. Again, I am sorry if I offend the purists but it would cost me six figures if I were to try to make this one a show car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) From your description the body work, paint, upholstery, and chrome would have cost the same no matter what kind of motor you had. You could have restored the car to "driver" status a lot cheaper than a show car. In fact, that is what you did.Now about the engine and trans. Did you keep track of what it cost you to buy and install them, including all parts, modifications and labor hours? And how did this compare to a straight rebuild of the stock engine?My point is, the restoration you did would have cost the same or maybe less, with a stock motor. Putting in a junkyard engine instead of rebuilding the original, saved little or nothing.And of course if you put in a rebuilt non stock motor, it cost a lot more than a stock rebuilt.I couldn't care less what you did with your car. I just want to correct the assumption that it is always cheaper to throw a junkyard engine into an old car, than to rebuild the original.Having worked as a mechanic for 20 years, and done a few engine swaps in my younger days, I can tell you it is almost always easier and cheaper to fix the original engine yet people who know nothing about cars, seem to think the opposite. Edited January 7, 2015 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordrodsteven Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 My car had already been changed when I bought it. it had a drive train out of a Mustang. The person who did it did a pretty good job. I strengthened / braced a little more than he did. I'm not going to beat on it so I trust my setup will be just fine. The car was rewired from stem to stern with harnesses removed from a newer Ford donor car. I have decided to leave it as is, 12V - and now with a 302 automatic. The body is in decent shape. The floors need to be replaced and I need a complete interior. But First! I must rebuild my garage. That's what I'm working on these days. When I start working on the car I'll probably share on the Thunderbird AACA forum. If my car had original drive train in it I would have left it that way. I agree that it sometimes gets hairy doing swaps. I always tried to stay true to bolt - in when I did any swaps in the past. For instance I pulled a 307 out of a Chevelle and put in a 350. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 An "upgrade" to the drive train would be to restore the original equipment to put in. Anything else would downgrade it in my opinion. A friend of mine just put a 302 in his '57 Thunderbird and although he didn't restore it, he at least takes in on tours now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 My 312 in my 57 Tbird ran great once I replaced the Carb with a good one. It had no problem keeping up in traffic. It wasn't quite like my 60 fuel injected Vette but it could get up to speed fast enough to not offend others in traffic and drove at 70 MPH on the interstate for over an hour with no problems. Ran cool in traffic and started great. I don't know why everyone is hell bent on re-engineering cars. The brakes worked fine as well and stopped it quite quickly. Maybe if I was descending Pike's peak I would need something better but I never had a problem with brake fade and I live in Upstate NY and toured quite a bit through the high peaks in the Adirondacks.Sometimes re-engineering opens up all kinds of cans of worms no one can figure out how to correct. Just my 2 cents. of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I can see why someone would modify their Tbird for more sporting performance back in the fifties. But today it would be pointless when you can go out and buy a car that will run rings around it. The original motor has plenty of power and performance for everyday driving in stock form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkyardjeff Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I put a 351-w in my 55 sunliner and I now wish I would have kept the Y block since the original 272 seems to have more torque then the 351,having mid 50s Olds before I got the 55 I thought it was a slug compared to the olds but the biggest problem with the Ford O matic trans is it starts out in second when left in drive so if it was my T bird I would adapt a newer trans to the 312. I am collecting the parts to put a Y block back in my 55 but a original FOM trans will not be going in,I am either going to adapt the rebuilt C-4 thats in it now or use a FMX which is very similar to the FOM and would take very little work to go in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 From what I've seen, the ONLY difference between the original Ford-O-Matic (starts in 2nd gear in "D") and the similar Dual-Range Cruise-O-Matic is the valve body itself. I might not know all there is to know, but I suspect the cases are the same, just the valve body is different. You'd also need a different shift quadrant AND the selector "item" which makes the shift lever have to move laterally for gear selection for the dual-range medication.I do suspect the C4 might consume a little less horsepower than the Borg-Warner design automatics.I have a 1960's era HOT ROD magazine with an article of how to "stuff" a Chrysler 392 Hemi (1958 model) into a '57 T-bird. I don't recall any suspension items, other than some stouter front coil springs, though as the Y-block has "plenty of metal in it". Don't recall the trans used, though.AT LEAST, Keeping it ALL FORD can be important for someone who likes the way the car looks and also wants something more modern underneath it. With the lighter 302 engine, I suspect the car handles and steers better with less weight on the front end of the car now. Might even make the front end sit a little higher than normal, which might be "50s specific", for additional effect.I KNOW that many people have differing reasons for doing what they do with their cars. There's a local guy who has a '54 Ford Country Sedan wagon. I has a later model 302 with AOD in it. He drives it everywhere. It looks like it ought to, "patina" and all, but doesn't have the correct sound when he starts it. He bought the car from a guy who knows Y-blocks, so the original engine/trans went back to that guy as a part of the deal.Such "in the OEM family" upgrades/changes/enhancements are VERY preferable (at least to my orientation of things) to putting a non-OEM motor in the vehicle. Many architectural "hard points" can still exist, which would not be there if it was not from the same OEM. More things tend to "bolt-in" rather than to need fabrication, by observation. Such things have value to more people outside of the realm of collectors or purists.By observation, when you go to a restoration shop, you'll probably be paying "cost +100%" versus getting the same work done at a good body shop that is willing to do the work (provided they have a good source for the things they might need). For the prices mentioned, a very nice, correct T-bird could be purchased, or close to the prices quoted. It could also be that the shops you inquired with didn't want the job and "high-bid" the job. Especially as the car had already been modified with the 302. IF the shop knew of the ultimate (suspected) value of the car when they finished it, they probably priced the job accordingly. Be that as it may.I can see BOTH sides of the issue. I've got a '58 Fairlane 4-dr Town Sedan in the barn. It was my grandmother's car, purchased used from some family friends, in the earlier 1960s. 292 2bbl, FOM, heater, whitewalls and hub caps, and black. Looks like it might have been in an old Ronald Reagan "cop" movie. Add-on a/c. In high school, I toyed with a Ford 428 drop-in upgrade, but did more research on the Y-block (back then and in much more recent times). When I drove it and used manual "L" to start, it ran as good as anything else in the middle '60s might have. In more modern times, it might need a 4-spd (THM700, with the deeper low gear) just keep up with city traffic. I'll worry about that later. Or finding the COM shift indicator/quadrant and adding the COM valve body? Plus, when necessary, an electronic ignition and some sort of fuel system upgrade (4bbl or TBI setup, just depends).Just some thoughts,NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkyardjeff Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 After changing the drivetrain in my 55 and got a computer I found a trans shop in Texas that will convert a FOM to start out in first gear and if I knew that then things would have been different,if I go with the FMX I will use the original 55 FOM air cooled bellhousing so at first glance it will look like it still has the original trans. Those mid 50s 4 speed hydros in the Oldsmobiles were quick out of the hole compared to those Ford automatics and just could not live with it even though my dad bought the 55 new,right now I am kind of glad it has the newer drivetrain since I do drive to to Florida once a year and all I carry is a tool box but looking to build another long distance driver to use the 351 in and go back to a Y block in the 55 and just drive it shorter distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Those GM Hydros had a much deeper low gear ratio than the three-speed automatics did, back then. Similar to what the current 6-speed automatics have in them. One reason why the drag racers loved those old "Hydros" for their drag race vehicles.My neighbor had a '55 Olds 88 that I sometimes rode to high school in. From a dead stop, under normal acceleration, it would roll about 1 car length and "boom" it was in 2nd gear. Not the smoothest shift at all, but very positive in nature. Enjoy!NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkyardjeff Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I hate a wimpy shifting trans and loved those hydros,I bought a 53 Olds with a blown motor so I decided to go with a larger motor so I bought a 59 to get what I thought was a 394. Since the crank was not drilled the hydro did not go in so I used the jetaway and was a little dissappointed as it did not shift as firm as the hydro but after a little plaing with some adjustments got it a little better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersix Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I hate a wimpy shifting trans and loved those hydros,I bought a 53 Olds with a blown motor so I decided to go with a larger motor so I bought a 59 to get what I thought was a 394. Since the crank was not drilled the hydro did not go in so I used the jetaway and was a little dissappointed as it did not shift as firm as the hydro but after a little plaing with some adjustments got it a little better.Back in those days the smoother shifts were desirable. The dual-coupling Jetaway Hydra-Matic was not as bulletproof as the pre-'56 Hydra-Matic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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